How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:31 pm

ThomasMN wrote:You know, people go crazy about the amount of money that you have to borrow to get an education in the states, but the fact is that you have to borrow for almost any kind of education. $100,000 in student debt leads to payments under a grand a month. A salary of 60,000 dollars a year covers that kind of loan payment easily in a place like Minnesota.


Thanks for your input. Good to know 100k in debt is manageable in Minnesota with even a relatively modest salary of 60k.

User avatar
Perch
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:36 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Perch » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:05 pm

I think OP is generally asking whether $$ at MN is worth it over T14 at sticker, and i think that depends on which T14. Im in a similar position 100k debt from BC vs over double that at C or G and i dont know what i plan to do. Im fine with Boston if i choose BC, though want NYC. I get where youre coming from and would just ask whether youre ok with Minnesota at least for awhile. Tough decisions that feel like they will guide the rest of your entire life. Sheesh.

User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:11 pm

Perch wrote:I think OP is generally asking whether $$ at MN is worth it over T14 at sticker, and i think that depends on which T14. Im in a similar position 100k debt from BC vs over double that at C or G and i dont know what i plan to do. Im fine with Boston if i choose BC, though want NYC. I get where youre coming from and would just ask whether youre ok with Minnesota at least for awhile. Tough decisions that feel like they will guide the rest of your entire life. Sheesh.


It is a really hard decision, especially given the ultimate uncertainty of what we'll want to practice when we finish school (as much as I want to go into human rights, for example, I may end up tax law. Unlikely, but stranger things have happened). It's hard to decide how much debt to take on in light of that. I'm still waiting to hear back from C (waitlisted at G) but since I don't want to work in NYC, I probably wouldn't end up going to C anyway.

Good luck with your decision! It sounds like there aren't any *bad* choices in your case, just difficult ones.

User avatar
Perch
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:36 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Perch » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Yeah to more fully explain it im WL at both C and G and dont know what ill do. Are those the schools your post is about? Id imagine if it was MVP or something it would be a whole other ballgame (somehow, though thats amazing)

User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:40 pm

Perch wrote:Yeah to more fully explain it im WL at both C and G and dont know what ill do. Are those the schools your post is about? Id imagine if it was MVP or something it would be a whole other ballgame (somehow, though thats amazing)


It's more about the general consensus on TLS that if it's not T14, then any school you do go to should be a) T1 and b) free. That does seem to be an extreme opinion--albeit based on good reasons-- and I wanted some more insight into my particular decision to attend Minnesota, which as another poster pointed out, is in a gray area (just outside the T14 at T20, and not free but 1/2 discount).

I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:43 pm

quixotical wrote:I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.


How expensive would this be relative to UMN?

User avatar
Perch
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:36 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Perch » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:44 pm

quixotical wrote:
Perch wrote:Yeah to more fully explain it im WL at both C and G and dont know what ill do. Are those the schools your post is about? Id imagine if it was MVP or something it would be a whole other ballgame (somehow, though thats amazing)


It's more about the general consensus on TLS that if it's not T14, then any school you do go to should be a) T1 and b) free. That does seem to be an extreme opinion--albeit based on good reasons-- and I wanted some more insight into my particular decision to attend Minnesota, which as another poster pointed out, is in a gray area (just outside the T14 at T20, and not free but 1/2 discount).

I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.


ND might give you a bit more national reach than MN i would think, and $$ sounds good. I passed there as well but it was bc of location not religion.

User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:47 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
quixotical wrote:I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.


How expensive would this be relative to UMN?


The COA is almost the same at both schools, but COL is slightly cheaper at ND, and the scholarship at Minnesota is slightly higher.

20k/year at ND and 22k/year at Minnesota (both with basic academic good standing/2.5 GPA stips).

User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Perch wrote:
quixotical wrote:
Perch wrote:Yeah to more fully explain it im WL at both C and G and dont know what ill do. Are those the schools your post is about? Id imagine if it was MVP or something it would be a whole other ballgame (somehow, though thats amazing)


It's more about the general consensus on TLS that if it's not T14, then any school you do go to should be a) T1 and b) free. That does seem to be an extreme opinion--albeit based on good reasons-- and I wanted some more insight into my particular decision to attend Minnesota, which as another poster pointed out, is in a gray area (just outside the T14 at T20, and not free but 1/2 discount).

I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.


ND might give you a bit more national reach than MN i would think, and $$ sounds good. I passed there as well but it was bc of location not religion.


That's what I'm debating about right now-- if the national reach of ND is worth it for an atheist. Some have mentioned that employment prospects drop if you're not Catholic (a lot of offers are made for religious solidarity apparently, much like BYU grads). I don't know how true this is, but it would obviously hurt me if it is and I went to ND. I was raised Catholic, but I don't want to lie to employers that I believe/am a practicing Catholic.

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:53 pm

quixotical wrote:
Perch wrote:
quixotical wrote:
Perch wrote:Yeah to more fully explain it im WL at both C and G and dont know what ill do. Are those the schools your post is about? Id imagine if it was MVP or something it would be a whole other ballgame (somehow, though thats amazing)


It's more about the general consensus on TLS that if it's not T14, then any school you do go to should be a) T1 and b) free. That does seem to be an extreme opinion--albeit based on good reasons-- and I wanted some more insight into my particular decision to attend Minnesota, which as another poster pointed out, is in a gray area (just outside the T14 at T20, and not free but 1/2 discount).

I'm also looking at ND with $$, but since I'm an atheist I'll probably pass.


ND might give you a bit more national reach than MN i would think, and $$ sounds good. I passed there as well but it was bc of location not religion.


That's what I'm debating about right now-- if the national reach of ND is worth it for an atheist. Some have mentioned that employment prospects drop if you're not Catholic (a lot of offers are made for religious solidarity apparently, much like BYU grads). I don't know how true this is, but it would obviously hurt me if it is and I went to ND. I was raised Catholic, but I don't want to lie to employers that I believe/am a practicing Catholic.


You don't have to pretend you're a devout Catholic, but you don't have to flaunt your atheism, either.

User avatar
Wholigan
Posts: 763
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:51 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Wholigan » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:15 pm

ThomasMN wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:That sounds like bad "math." GMU at 3/4 ride over three years is about $26k ( not including cost of living, which would honestly be cheaper at GMU compared to GW). GW is approximately $69K over three years ( just for tuition). From what I can tell GW also has higher fees etc.

69K is about 2.7 times more expensive than GMU. Is a degree from GW worth 3 times as much as a degree from GMU?

Actually, it's your math that's bad. If one degree costs $10 for the entire process of getting a JD, and the other cost $30, would the one that cost $30 have to be worth triple the other? No, it would only have to be worth $20 more than the other one.

So assuming your calculations are correct, a GW degree doesn't have to be worth 3x what a GMU degree is for the extra $43k. Its present value only has to be $43k greater. So even if the present value of your projected lifetime earnings from GW is $1.8 Million, and from GMU it's $1.7 Million, GW is still "worth it."

My bad in the language department, what I was trying to get across is that is if a GW degree worth paying three times as much for compared to a degree from GMU.

That and its not just making $43k more over a lifetime, you also have to calculate your interest on said debt. It really starts stacking up.

What I was really trying to say is that stating the difference between 1/2 ride or 3/4 ride is not very descriptive when you are talking about two different schools that are in two completely different price brackets, which GMU and GW are.



I know this really doesn't have much to do with the OP's question, but I don't think you understand the concepts of present values and lifetime earnings. When I said present value has to be $43k greater, that doesn't mean $43k more total over your career. It means it's discounted to today's dollars, which accounts for your debt compounding.

While you are right that simply saying a 1/2 or 3/4 scholarship doesn't mean much, it is just as irrelevant to look at scale as a measure of value, like School X costs 3 times as much as School Y. All that matters is the dollar difference. To put that in perspective, let's say GMU offered you a chance to go there for $1. GULC offered you a scholly that made cost of attendance $5,000. I hope you understand you would be a fool not to go to GULC. That doesn't mean it's 5,000 times better.

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby ThomasMN » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:38 pm

I think its pretty obvious that my main point is that total cost of attendance should be considered, not just "I got a 1/2 scholarship at this #22 school and a 3/4 at this #40". Iterating that it is 3 times as expensive to go to GW over GMU was really more of a "wow" thing. If you seriously thought that what I was trying to communicate is that the most important factor is how many times more one school costs over another then you are either a troll or pretentious, not that I would say they are mutually exclusive.

Yes, I realize that what matters is not that it costs so many times more, but what that actual cost is. However, what I generally have issue with is that TLSers tend to calculate salaries after graduation
based on: (a) making big law, (b) staying in big law. By generally looking at law school that way people are making it necessary that they pursue big law to pay off large student debt. At the same time not every associate sticks around and 4-5 years of work at a big firm and may very well not have finished paying off their student debt at that time- especially in cities with a high cost of living like D.C. and NYC. The OP is talking about potentially being interested in PI work. Guess what, you are not going to make $160k doing that, in which case a $40k-$50k difference in price is a salient point in choosing one school over another.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Hannibal » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:40 pm

I would take 1/2 at GW over 3/4 at GMU regardless of biglaw, since other employment opportunities are better as well, which is especially important in DC. Also if you're doing PI, it's better to go to the better schools thanks to LRAP and IBR.

User avatar
ThomasMN
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby ThomasMN » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:48 pm

I will be honest, I would take GW with a 1/2 scholarship over GMU with a 3/4 scholarship as well. Really, I just think you should be worried about the overall cost of attendance. For example, cost of attendance is radically different between GW and MN, 1/2 scholarship at each or not. It should be considered, even if that consideration does not ultimately change the decision.

User avatar
Flips88
Posts: 13659
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Flips88 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:18 pm

If OP is dead set on PI work then $95k of debt is more than manageable. He'd just get on a 25 year IBR plan and it'd get wiped after 10 years.

I think the payments would even be manageable if you got a lower paying private firm job ($50-75k)

The downside of UMN is that you're limited regionally, but the upside is that you aren't locked into being big law or bust. I think the debt is completely manageable.

User avatar
quixotical
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby quixotical » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:20 pm

Flips88 wrote:If OP is dead set on PI work then $95k of debt is more than manageable. He'd just get on a 25 year IBR plan and it'd get wiped after 10 years.

I think the payments would even be manageable if you got a lower paying private firm job ($50-75k)

The downside of UMN is that you're limited regionally, but the upside is that you aren't locked into being big law or bust. I think the debt is completely manageable.


Thank you! This was very informative. Appreciate it :)

User avatar
Flips88
Posts: 13659
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm

Re: How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14?

Postby Flips88 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:24 pm

quixotical wrote:
Flips88 wrote:If OP is dead set on PI work then $95k of debt is more than manageable. He'd just get on a 25 year IBR plan and it'd get wiped after 10 years.

I think the payments would even be manageable if you got a lower paying private firm job ($50-75k)

The downside of UMN is that you're limited regionally, but the upside is that you aren't locked into being big law or bust. I think the debt is completely manageable.


Thank you! This was very informative. Appreciate it :)

Look around this website: http://ibrinfo.org/what.vp.html

and toy around with this calculator: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scrip ... yments.cgi




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests