Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

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matye
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Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby matye » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:07 pm

If money weren't a consideration, which would you pick? I am interested in environmental law, but I know people change their mind often in school. Which environment would you like more? I know the pacific northwest is nice, and both are decent schools, but I am of the opinion that case is the slightly better school overall (not because of the rankings, mind you). Any advice? Thoughts?

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:38 pm

Tough call. L&C has a good specialty program in the area you like, but in terms of deciding which is the fundamentally stronger school...I'm biased, since I go to CWRU, but I'd say Case. Before USNEWS ditched the 'prestige' ratings from peer/lawyers, Case was far stronger, and my general perception is that although there are good reasons for the school falling in the rankings, the faculty/curriculum is not one of them. We did just hire a new prof who does environmental law part of the time, but I can't tell you if he's good or not.

But even though you say money isn't a concern...it is. CWRU is more expensive; I'd want the cost to be equivalent at least if these are your only choices. Also, decide which region you prefer to practice in.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby mpj_3050 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:47 pm

Obviously OSU is king in Ohio, but I would say from people I've spoken to that Case is ahead of Cincinnati. If both of these are at sticker I would go with Lewis and Clark because of being a little bit cheaper because money is always a consideration to some degree.

Cleveland isn't as bad as people make it out to be but it certainly isn't a place I would want to spend law school plus however many years post law school.

How is the cost of living in Portland?

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thexfactor
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby thexfactor » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:29 pm

i think case has marginally better midlaw/biglaw placement. more biglaw firms in ohio vs oregon.
the specialty rankings do not mean much.

are you looking to do non profit environmental work? government? or law firm environmental work?

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:46 pm

thexfactor wrote:i think case has marginally better midlaw/biglaw placement. more biglaw firms in ohio vs oregon.
the specialty rankings do not mean much.

are you looking to do non profit environmental work? government? or law firm environmental work?


Yeah. Case puts around 10% in Biglaw and there are a few former Jones Day guys who teach here. There are rumblings that Jones Day or Squire Sanders might massively downsize their offices here, so I wouldn't bet the farm on Biglaw, but Case recruits into Pittsburgh decently as well, and some grads go to NYC/DC/Chicago. Not very many. But if you want traditional business/law firm work, Cleveland is better than Portland.

If you really, absolutely want to do environmental law, I'd say go for L&C. But if you're not sure, go to Case. There's no reason you couldn't pursue internships related to it at either school; L&C will just give you a big leg up.

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thexfactor
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby thexfactor » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:49 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:
thexfactor wrote:i think case has marginally better midlaw/biglaw placement. more biglaw firms in ohio vs oregon.
the specialty rankings do not mean much.

are you looking to do non profit environmental work? government? or law firm environmental work?


Yeah. Case puts around 10% in Biglaw and there are a few former Jones Day guys who teach here. There are rumblings that Jones Day or Squire Sanders might massively downsize their offices here, so I wouldn't bet the farm on Biglaw, but Case recruits into Pittsburgh decently as well, and some grads go to NYC/DC/Chicago. Not very many. But if you want traditional business/law firm work, Cleveland is better than Portland.

If you really, absolutely want to do environmental law, I'd say go for L&C. But if you're not sure, go to Case. There's no reason you couldn't pursue internships related to it at either school; L&C will just give you a big leg up.


I dont think Thompson Hine or Squire took any SA's last year. I dont think they even showed up to Case OCI. I think Jones Day/Baker usually takes a couple people from Case.

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Kabuo
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby Kabuo » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:55 pm

thexfactor wrote:
Ersatz Haderach wrote:
thexfactor wrote:i think case has marginally better midlaw/biglaw placement. more biglaw firms in ohio vs oregon.
the specialty rankings do not mean much.

are you looking to do non profit environmental work? government? or law firm environmental work?


Yeah. Case puts around 10% in Biglaw and there are a few former Jones Day guys who teach here. There are rumblings that Jones Day or Squire Sanders might massively downsize their offices here, so I wouldn't bet the farm on Biglaw, but Case recruits into Pittsburgh decently as well, and some grads go to NYC/DC/Chicago. Not very many. But if you want traditional business/law firm work, Cleveland is better than Portland.

If you really, absolutely want to do environmental law, I'd say go for L&C. But if you're not sure, go to Case. There's no reason you couldn't pursue internships related to it at either school; L&C will just give you a big leg up.


I dont think Thompson Hine or Squire took any SA's last year. I dont think they even showed up to Case OCI. I think Jones Day/Baker usually takes a couple people from Case.


This is credited for at least Thompson Hine. My Vandy interviewer is a partner there and told me they had, at least temporarily, stopped their SA program. She didn't seem too keen on opening it back up ever, fwiw, but I assume they will as things get better.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:18 pm

I would rather have little mobility in Oregon than Cleveland

reverendt
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby reverendt » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:28 pm

The answer is simple...where do you want to live & work after you finish?
Unless you have family/ties in Cleveland, I can't imagine anyone wanting to live there!
So all things being equal I'd go to L&C.

matye
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby matye » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:47 pm

thanks for your responses so far, it looks like I'm going to have to make a darn tough call here soon. I got a tiny scholarship from case and sticker at l&c. Cost would be about the same, but I have some savings so I won't have to go into insane debt to go to either place. I would think max debt out of either school wouldn't top 60 thousand, perhap less.

matye
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby matye » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:55 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:Tough call. L&C has a good specialty program in the area you like, but in terms of deciding which is the fundamentally stronger school...I'm biased, since I go to CWRU, but I'd say Case. Before USNEWS ditched the 'prestige' ratings from peer/lawyers, Case was far stronger, and my general perception is that although there are good reasons for the school falling in the rankings, the faculty/curriculum is not one of them. We did just hire a new prof who does environmental law part of the time, but I can't tell you if he's good or not.

But even though you say money isn't a concern...it is. CWRU is more expensive; I'd want the cost to be equivalent at least if these are your only choices. Also, decide which region you prefer to practice in.


Hey, I just wanted to know what those "good reasons" are for the school dropping in the ranking. If not curriculum or faculty, is it bar passage or placement?

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:38 pm

Squire did take at least one Case SA last year but they have not been at OCI for a few years now. Baker is definitely taking multiple people this year. In any case, NLJ250 probably only accounts for 25-30 students a year, most of those in the regional firms like Benesch, Vorys, Taft, etc.

Reasons for drop: We didn't have a Dean, and the Dean before the Interim guy wasn't very good and spent a lot of time whining about rankings being stupid and a waste of time, you can read about him on Above the Law, search for Case Western. He was axed, and it took them awhile to find a new Dean. Not having a permanent Dean...hurts so many things. Case was actually T1 at one point, but that didn't last. Donations, hiring, retention all suffered. But, they just hired the new guy and I love him. He is going to be very good for Case and is a business law specialist coming here from George Washington.

The other reason is the economy; even though Case places ~50% outside Ohio, the hurt was on because of a drop in jobs in Cleveland, which was hit harder on average by the recession. Finally, there was one year where we had shitty bar passage, but now we have the highest (or 2nd highest? I can't remember - it's 95%) in Ohio. It didn't take a genius to realize that if you offer 3Ls a free bar course, they'll probably pass. They did, voila. I really doubt that's going to be an issue again.

I don't want to be too biased (I am), but for me, this wouldn't be much of a debate. L&C is too limited in area and seems like a specialty school. At worst, CWRU is a mostly regional school that has tried too hard to be a specialty school but still has decent fundamentals and a better name than L&C. Yeah, Cleveland isn't as fun/quality of life as Portland, I'm not gonna make that argument. :wink: But reports of its death are greatly exaggerated, and the legal market is undeniably larger. So, if you want to live in the Pac NW for sure, definitely go to L&C. Otherwise, Case.

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thexfactor
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby thexfactor » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:02 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:Squire did take at least one Case SA last year but they have not been at OCI for a few years now. Baker is definitely taking multiple people this year. In any case, NLJ250 probably only accounts for 25-30 students a year, most of those in the regional firms like Benesch, Vorys, Taft, etc.

Reasons for drop: We didn't have a Dean, and the Dean before the Interim guy wasn't very good and spent a lot of time whining about rankings being stupid and a waste of time, you can read about him on Above the Law, search for Case Western. He was axed, and it took them awhile to find a new Dean. Not having a permanent Dean...hurts so many things. Case was actually T1 at one point, but that didn't last. Donations, hiring, retention all suffered. But, they just hired the new guy and I love him. He is going to be very good for Case and is a business law specialist coming here from George Washington.

The other reason is the economy; even though Case places ~50% outside Ohio, the hurt was on because of a drop in jobs in Cleveland, which was hit harder on average by the recession. Finally, there was one year where we had shitty bar passage, but now we have the highest (or 2nd highest? I can't remember - it's 95%) in Ohio. It didn't take a genius to realize that if you offer 3Ls a free bar course, they'll probably pass. They did, voila. I really doubt that's going to be an issue again.

I don't want to be too biased (I am), but for me, this wouldn't be much of a debate. L&C is too limited in area and seems like a specialty school. At worst, CWRU is a mostly regional school that has tried too hard to be a specialty school but still has decent fundamentals and a better name than L&C. Yeah, Cleveland isn't as fun/quality of life as Portland, I'm not gonna make that argument. :wink: But reports of its death are greatly exaggerated, and the legal market is undeniably larger. So, if you want to live in the Pac NW for sure, definitely go to L&C. Otherwise, Case.


I agree. I think Cleveland has a bigger legal market than Portland. Also, Case places "some" people in cinci, columbus and pittsburgh.
Ohio might not be very desirable, but i think job prospects are somewhat better than Oregon. If you are in the top 5% or so at case, I think it will open up east coast job prospects.

rose711
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby rose711 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:33 pm

What sort of life do you want to lead? Have you visited each school? Case Western is near the museums and stuff of Cleveland - you need to see if you like it. I think that Cleveland as a city is probably better than its general reputation.

BeautifulSW
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Re: Case Western or Lewis and Clark?

Postby BeautifulSW » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:45 pm

Cleveland is a seriously cool city and unlike in Portland, there are actual jobs available. And Case dominates that market. In some ways, Cleveland really DOES rock. Besides, I love Ohio in general (though the winters are brutal).




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