UTK or FSU

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where would you go?

UTK
16
55%
FSU
13
45%
 
Total votes: 29

aliarrow
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby aliarrow » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:27 pm

Ill just answer the Q because I think the mods are getting pissed with all the retake threads, this user has been around a while and Im pretty sure he knows what hes getting into, and at least these schools are decent for their secondary markets.

That said, I'd pick FSU. Im partial because I grew up in FL, but still, you cant beat the quality of the women down here, the cheap COL, and no state tax.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:32 pm

aliarrow wrote:Ill just answer the Q because I think the mods are getting pissed with all the retake threads, this user has been around a while and Im pretty sure he knows what hes getting into, and at least these schools are decent for their secondary markets.

That said, I'd pick FSU. Im partial because I grew up in FL, but still, you cant beat the quality of the women down here, the cheap COL, and no state tax.


Thanks. I put my choices in your dealio that you made and it told me UTK. So I'm going to wash your vote out haha but all those answers are credited.

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Grizz
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Grizz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:14 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:Yeah man. Hey BTW did you hear 9/11 was an inside job? Yeah. Hey hows your underground bunker coming along?


Dude even mainstream media has picked up the story about the fudging of employment stats.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:53 pm

rad law wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:Yeah man. Hey BTW did you hear 9/11 was an inside job? Yeah. Hey hows your underground bunker coming along?


Dude even mainstream media has picked up the story about the fudging of employment stats.


There is a lot of "fudging." I guess the bunker thing was too much. But listen, the allegations (most famously in the nytimes article) surrounded median salaries and how disingenuous it was to post a median salary that only represents a few grads. Median salaries are for employed grads who work in the legal field, full time. Schools never publish the part-time numbers and that is what leads to most of the "fudging." The other side of it, recently, has been the new trick law schools use of hiring their grads for short stints on a part-time basis. This helps their USNEWS ranking methodology because the nine month employment statistics don't distinguish between full and part-time work (very, very stupid). However, for example, SMU did this to the highest degree for the 2009 class and while I'm sure it saved them in the rankings they certainly did report those employed correctly. Part-time.

That said, thanks to recent efforts by USNEWS, we now have access to the part-time data. Santa Clara only had 23% of its class working as full time attorneys nine months out, but UTK had 86%. There are some winners and losers in the second tier.

What I'm saying is that the law school fudging data thing is more complicated than at first look. 99 out of 100 law schools might hire grads part time to boost their USNEWS rankings or conventinely leave off part-time data from their website ( I doubt its that bad, most institutions of higher learning are at least somewhat honorable), but I highly doubt more than 1 out of 100 law schools would flat out lie and change surveys for the ABA to show their grads in JD required full time work.

The later would have to be true for me to freak out about UTK/FSU.

Point was, in response to "go do your homework," -- I have.

At any rate I believe you are a Florida guy. You like FSU?

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Grizz
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Grizz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:10 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:At any rate I believe you are a Florida guy. You like FSU?


At instate tuition? Sure. Without? No. It's impossible to give decent advice without considering cost.

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mpj_3050
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mpj_3050 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:14 pm

But what about the number of kids who have to start a solo practice? Are these schools providing any information about firm sizes? J.D. required means nothing if you don't know what size firms these kids are going to.

UTK and FSU are pretty similar so just pick the one you feel more comfortable at because more than likely you aren't going to get too much school specific information on here.

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Grizz
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Grizz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:19 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:
UTK and FSU are pretty similar so just pick the one you feel more comfortable at because more than likely you aren't going to get too much school specific information on here.


This. Grads from both are gonna get the same similar jobs. Some midsize firms, small firms, local govt., solo practice.

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romothesavior
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:23 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:What I'm saying is that the law school fudging data thing is more complicated than at first look. 99 out of 100 law schools might hire grads part time to boost their USNEWS rankings or conventinely leave off part-time data from their website ( I doubt its that bad, most institutions of higher learning are at least somewhat honorable), but I highly doubt more than 1 out of 100 law schools would flat out lie and change surveys for the ABA to show their grads in JD required full time work

Both are very, very shady. And I'm skeptical that "jobs requiring a J.D." is all that reliable either. Contract attorney? Count it. Paralegal? Count it. Seems very easy to manipulate.

What's truly incredible is that USNWR job statistics today (in the worse downturn in the history of legal hiring) are better across the board than they were 10-15 years ago! :shock: How is that even possible? Schools are just downright experts on data manipulation, and until the ABA (or the courts or Congress) step in and put an end to the outright scam going on, I don't see it happening on its own. USNWR has proven to be absolutely atrocious at demanding transparency and accountability. And I'm sorry, but there's no way 86% of students are employed in J.D. required jobs from a hyper-regional school in a small legal market in the worst legal downturn in history (talking about UTK here). Where are students getting those jobs? Are they counting unemployed students as solo practitioners or something? Hell, I doubt that T15-20 schools can claim anywhere close to 86% employed in J.D. jobs without some serious numbers-fudging.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:33 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:But what about the number of kids who have to start a solo practice? Are these schools providing any information about firm sizes? J.D. required means nothing if you don't know what size firms these kids are going to.

UTK and FSU are pretty similar so just pick the one you feel more comfortable at because more than likely you aren't going to get too much school specific information on here.


Great point. UTK provides this data: http://www.law.utk.edu/admitted/index.shtml

10 solo practitioners in 2009
4 solo practitioners in 2010

Sometimes students from the different schools are on the boards and can provide great info. I've already had a few FSU students PM me and say a few things privately that I'm guessing they would be less likely to share on this thread.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:What I'm saying is that the law school fudging data thing is more complicated than at first look. 99 out of 100 law schools might hire grads part time to boost their USNEWS rankings or conventinely leave off part-time data from their website ( I doubt its that bad, most institutions of higher learning are at least somewhat honorable), but I highly doubt more than 1 out of 100 law schools would flat out lie and change surveys for the ABA to show their grads in JD required full time work

Both are very, very shady. And I'm skeptical that "jobs requiring a J.D." is all that reliable either. Contract attorney? Count it. Paralegal? Count it. Seems very easy to manipulate.

What's truly incredible is that USNWR job statistics today (in the worse downturn in the history of legal hiring) are better across the board than they were 10-15 years ago! :shock: How is that even possible? Schools are just downright experts on data manipulation, and until the ABA (or the courts or Congress) step in and put an end to the outright scam going on, I don't see it happening on its own. USNWR has proven to be absolutely atrocious at demanding transparency and accountability. And I'm sorry, but there's no way 86% of students are employed in J.D. required jobs from a hyper-regional school in a small legal market in the worst legal downturn in history (talking about UTK here). Where are students getting those jobs? Are they counting unemployed students as solo practitioners or something? Hell, I doubt that T15-20 schools can claim anywhere close to 86% employed in J.D. jobs without some serious numbers-fudging.


Contract attorney yes-- however, they would be reported as part-time.
Paralegal should be reported as JD preferred. That is a category and USNEWS actually uses paralegal as their example of a JD preferred position. So, I guess you could be right, but they would have to blatantly not follow the rules to do so. As far as your UTK remarks, I would have to agree with you. Seems oddly high. I brought it up at their ASD and they were like - yeah we are a diamond in the rough, we have a smaller class to place, we try to recruit kids with social skills so they will actually get jobs, and we have rabid alumni. Of course that seemed a bit too good to be true, but they seemed convinced themselves. It should be noted that they have been way more transparent then the rest of the schools I'm admitted to. I have schools that won't even share the 2010 numbers when asked, and UTK emailed all the admitted and prospective students the numbers as soon as they came out. The thing I noted was that they were actually worse than the already available 2009 numbers.

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thexfactor
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby thexfactor » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:51 pm

Before I went to law school I knew there was something "shady" about the employment stats. However, I didn't know how bad they fudge the numbers.
Furthermore, the stats now arent even that accurate. Schools are just beginning to feel the effects of the "great recession." Back in 07 maybe top 1/3 at American or Brooklyn would do ok and could get biglaw. However, now the placement numbers are close to or less than 10%.
My point is to just be careful and double check your research. The best outcome of you going to Tenn or FSU is that you graduate with 100k debt but get a 100k job. However, I would put those odds at about 10%. This might sound stupid, but only 10% of the class can be in the top 10%. Almost everyone staring law school thinks they will be in the top 10%.

Another positive and more probable outcome is that you get a non profit job and IBR pays off your debt in 10 years.

Worst case? you will be on JD underground complaining about having 100k debt and no job prospects.

If you do choose to go to either law school. Why dont you work for a year in Tennessee or Florida and then go to law school. That way you can take advantage of the really cheap (by law school standards) tuition that is offered. It will save you a shitload of money.

If you forced me to choose, I would probably choose FSU. More "alumni" + better location in florida. I think you can also get in state tuition after your first year.

Good luck.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:08 pm

thexfactor wrote:The best outcome of you going to Tenn or FSU is that you graduate with 100k debt but get a 100k job. However, I would put those odds at about 10%. This might sound stupid, but only 10% of the class can be in the top 10%. Almost everyone staring law school thinks they will be in the top 10%.


FWIW, I agree with this. This is financially the best case scenario for someone with in-state and no cash in the bank at these two schools.

thexfactor wrote:If you forced me to choose, I would probably choose FSU. More "alumni" + better location in florida. I think you can also get in state tuition after your first year.

Good luck.


Thanks for this. More alumni though? The school is younger than I expected.. I guess still old enough though. They both have pretty small classes.

I may end going with TN and trying to work there for 10 years, then uproot everybody and move to Florida. I know, stereotypical. I have found lots of UTK alumni in FL but lots is still no where close to FSU alums obviously. I am trying to figure out how hard it is to move after you have worked for 5-7 years. I couldn't start a solo shop in FL because I would have no network there-- would need a small firm job.

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birdlaw117
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:33 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:
rad law wrote:--ImageRemoved--




LOL!!!!!!!! oHHH LOOK HE HAS PIMPLES!!!!

But I never asked for advice. Reading comprehension fail.

RC, guys. RC.

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deadpanic
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby deadpanic » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:12 am

aliarrow wrote:Ill just answer the Q because I think the mods are getting pissed with all the retake threads, this user has been around a while and Im pretty sure he knows what hes getting into, and at least these schools are decent for their secondary markets.

That said, I'd pick FSU. Im partial because I grew up in FL, but still, you cant beat the quality of the women down here, the cheap COL, and no state tax.


TN doesn't have a state income tax either, FYI.

Sandro
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Sandro » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:01 am

You guys are a riot 8)

I vote FSU.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Bill Cosby » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:08 am

mrwarre85 wrote:
rad law wrote:--ImageRemoved--




LOL!!!!!!!! oHHH LOOK HE HAS PIMPLES!!!!

But I never asked for advice. Reading comprehension fail.


Posting the thread is asking for advice...

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:32 am

Bill Cosby wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:
rad law wrote:--ImageRemoved--




LOL!!!!!!!! oHHH LOOK HE HAS PIMPLES!!!!

But I never asked for advice. Reading comprehension fail.


Posting the thread is asking for advice...


Unless its not...

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Grizz
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:15 am

mrwarre85 wrote:
Bill Cosby wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:
rad law wrote:--ImageRemoved--




LOL!!!!!!!! oHHH LOOK HE HAS PIMPLES!!!!

But I never asked for advice. Reading comprehension fail.


Posting the thread is asking for advice...


Unless its not...


mrwarre85 wrote:With costs being equal, where would you go?

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:53 am

rad law wrote:
mrwarre85 wrote:With costs being equal, where would you go?


Is like asking someone which color do you like, red or blue? Again, it is only asking for advice if it is asking for advice. I said nothing about myself.

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:54 am

mrwarre85 wrote:With costs being equal, where would you go?

Do you prefer Tallahassee or Knoxville? Would you rather end up working in TN or FL?

Thanks.

FSUAlumniAtlanta
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby FSUAlumniAtlanta » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:38 pm

FSU. (Preface: I am an FSU Law grad, did top 10%, work BigLaw Atlanta)

At least in Atlanta, FSU has a better reputation. If you want to practice in Tennessee after graduation, then ok.

If you want to practice in Florida or Georgia, then FSU.

Perhaps with the exception of Miller & Martin (Tennessee based firm), a degree from FSU would fare better in the south. Need to be top 20% from either to catch eyes of firms that will pay top tier. To be sure -- and I know many will be pissed at this statement -- you also need to be top 20% from other good regional schools to get top firms (e.g., UGA, UA, UF, AND Emory; the exception is Vanderbilt).

Apart from prospects out of school, I pesonally had a great experience with FSU and speak highly of it to anyone. If you have any specific questions about FSU, feel free to ask.

Best of luck!

toochthemooch
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby toochthemooch » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:41 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:wow, all of you were completely unhelpful.

first, not everyone goes to law school to make a lot of money. in fact, lots of people want to earn 50k a year and help people. pause for effect..

ok, now that we have cleared that up, what I am asking is : if costs were not an issue, where would you want to go to law school/live?

it is a friendly and easy question and it doesn't require a " retake, don't go, or I'm insecure and get my rocks off on TLS. " I swear some of you remind me of that brad paisley song "so much cooler online."

there is no wrong answer except for those described above. just say, TN or FL and here is why, or, don't say anything at all.


I voted UTK... i mean... you did quote a country song... why would you not go to tennessee?

mrwarre85
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby mrwarre85 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:39 pm

FSUAlumniAtlanta wrote:FSU. (Preface: I am an FSU Law grad, did top 10%, work BigLaw Atlanta)

At least in Atlanta, FSU has a better reputation. If you want to practice in Tennessee after graduation, then ok.

If you want to practice in Florida or Georgia, then FSU.

Perhaps with the exception of Miller & Martin (Tennessee based firm), a degree from FSU would fare better in the south. Need to be top 20% from either to catch eyes of firms that will pay top tier. To be sure -- and I know many will be pissed at this statement -- you also need to be top 20% from other good regional schools to get top firms (e.g., UGA, UA, UF, AND Emory; the exception is Vanderbilt).

Apart from prospects out of school, I pesonally had a great experience with FSU and speak highly of it to anyone. If you have any specific questions about FSU, feel free to ask.

Best of luck!



I'm surprised that FSU is better for Atlanta because Knoxville is closer to Atlanta than Tallahassee, plus UTK usually has 25% working out of state, compared to 15% at FSU. Why do you think that is and if I asked a UTK grad working in Atlanta would he agree with you?

I may PM you about Tallahassee. My SO is worried about it.

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red_alertz
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:41 pm

OP, both are good schools, go with where you want to work and how much you have to pay, either way congrats!

minuit
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Re: UTK or FSU

Postby minuit » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:15 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:
FSUAlumniAtlanta wrote:FSU. (Preface: I am an FSU Law grad, did top 10%, work BigLaw Atlanta)

At least in Atlanta, FSU has a better reputation. If you want to practice in Tennessee after graduation, then ok.

If you want to practice in Florida or Georgia, then FSU.

Perhaps with the exception of Miller & Martin (Tennessee based firm), a degree from FSU would fare better in the south. Need to be top 20% from either to catch eyes of firms that will pay top tier. To be sure -- and I know many will be pissed at this statement -- you also need to be top 20% from other good regional schools to get top firms (e.g., UGA, UA, UF, AND Emory; the exception is Vanderbilt).

Apart from prospects out of school, I pesonally had a great experience with FSU and speak highly of it to anyone. If you have any specific questions about FSU, feel free to ask.

Best of luck!



I'm surprised that FSU is better for Atlanta because Knoxville is closer to Atlanta than Tallahassee, plus UTK usually has 25% working out of state, compared to 15% at FSU. Why do you think that is and if I asked a UTK grad working in Atlanta would he agree with you?

I may PM you about Tallahassee. My SO is worried about it.


24% of FSU grads went OOS last year. Where do people get these statistics?




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