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NYU v. Michigan

NYU
61
55%
Michigan
50
45%
 
Total votes: 111

reversejinx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby reversejinx » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:22 am

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Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:19 am

reversejinx wrote: is biglaw still a guarantee for me out of NYU but significantly less likely at Michigan?


Biglaw is never a "guarantee" anywhere nowadays. You could be at Yale and still strike out (There's some poster on here who was in the top 5 people at NYU (or something like that), transferred to Yale, and still only got 2 biglaw offers -- that's terrible for that class rank). However, I'd wager that biglaw is substantially less likely being slightly below median at Michigan than being slightly below median at NYU (I recall a number floating around on TLS - 70% of all OCI participants getting a biglaw SA offer at NYU the other year; there's no way 70% of all OCI participants at Michigan got biglaw SA offers that year).

A few years ago, the advice was to only attend a law school you would be happy graduating at median from (and being at median at a t14 then also meant having a decent shot at biglaw then). Personally, I would feel a lot safer at median at NYU ITE than median at Michigan.

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:10 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
reversejinx wrote: is biglaw still a guarantee for me out of NYU but significantly less likely at Michigan?


Biglaw is never a "guarantee" anywhere nowadays. You could be at Yale and still strike out (There's some poster on here who was in the top 5 people at NYU (or something like that), transferred to Yale, and still only got 2 biglaw offers -- that's terrible for that class rank). However, I'd wager that biglaw is substantially less likely being slightly below median at Michigan than being slightly below median at NYU (I recall a number floating around on TLS - 70% of all OCI participants getting a biglaw SA offer at NYU the other year; there's no way 70% of all OCI participants at Michigan got biglaw SA offers that year).

A few years ago, the advice was to only attend a law school you would be happy graduating at median from (and being at median at a t14 then also meant having a decent shot at biglaw then). Personally, I would feel a lot safer at median at NYU ITE than median at Michigan.


Yeah, no guarantees in life, but if market doesn't matter, NYC firms reserve a block of their incoming class for CLS/NYU. And there are loads of big law jobs in New York.

I'm still not sold that the difference is worth 60k, but NYU's class will get a deeper look, particularly at more discriminating firms.

reversejinx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby reversejinx » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:55 pm

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Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:38 pm

reversejinx wrote:
ahduth wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
reversejinx wrote: is biglaw still a guarantee for me out of NYU but significantly less likely at Michigan?


Biglaw is never a "guarantee" anywhere nowadays. You could be at Yale and still strike out (There's some poster on here who was in the top 5 people at NYU (or something like that), transferred to Yale, and still only got 2 biglaw offers -- that's terrible for that class rank). However, I'd wager that biglaw is substantially less likely being slightly below median at Michigan than being slightly below median at NYU (I recall a number floating around on TLS - 70% of all OCI participants getting a biglaw SA offer at NYU the other year; there's no way 70% of all OCI participants at Michigan got biglaw SA offers that year).

A few years ago, the advice was to only attend a law school you would be happy graduating at median from (and being at median at a t14 then also meant having a decent shot at biglaw then). Personally, I would feel a lot safer at median at NYU ITE than median at Michigan.


Yeah, no guarantees in life, but if market doesn't matter, NYC firms reserve a block of their incoming class for CLS/NYU. And there are loads of big law jobs in New York.

I'm still not sold that the difference is worth 60k, but NYU's class will get a deeper look, particularly at more discriminating firms.


"Guarantee" was probably the wrong word. I was exaggerating in an attempt to accentuate the difference I was looking for. That said, how big is the difference? And the 60k difference is total (scholly and COL) after three years. Is that not worth it when I can more securely "guarantee" a job if I happen to fall into the median (which statistically is the most likely outcome)?


It’s all about how risk adverse you are, and whether you’re more daring to take on more risk in terms of debt, or in terms of getting biglaw. As others have indicated, $60k is a decent chunk of change out of your pocket every month that you’ll be able to save if you go to Michigan and get biglaw.

Personally, I would much rather have the additional safety net at NYU (especially if you are interested primarily in NYC biglaw). This is because, to me, less money in my pocket every month in biglaw is a much, much better outcome than potentially not getting biglaw and working for something like $50k /year somewhere else and then trying to pay off $150k in loans (which would be a LOT less money in my pocket every month than if I were to have gone to NYU and gotten biglaw, but then paid a little bit more each month towards my student loans). I mean let’s be real here, regardless of how you put this, $160k /year is a lot of fucking money, and even with having to repay some serious student loans, you’re not by any means going to be living poorly with that kind of a salary. But that’s just my opinion of it and what I would do in your situation (other people might prefer to take on the additional risk of not getting biglaw, but save the $60k).

reversejinx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby reversejinx » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:20 pm

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Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:45 pm

reversejinx wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:It’s all about how risk adverse you are, and whether you’re more daring to take on more risk in terms of debt, or in terms of getting biglaw. As others have indicated, $60k is a decent chunk of change out of your pocket every month that you’ll be able to save if you go to Michigan and get biglaw.

Personally, I would much rather have the additional safety net at NYU (especially if you are interested primarily in NYC biglaw). This is because, to me, less money in my pocket every month in biglaw is a much, much better outcome than potentially not getting biglaw and working for something like $50k /year somewhere else and then trying to pay off $150k in loans (which would be a LOT less money in my pocket every month than if I were to have gone to NYU and gotten biglaw, but then paid a little bit more each month towards my student loans).


I think I'm with you on this. The idea is to maximize the probability I get biglaw (otherwise, I probably wouldn't be going to law school). If I do well, great, I can get a clerkship from either school. It's only if I don't do as well as I am hoping that any potential difference comes into play, and in those terms, I think NYU comes out on top.

Also, a simplified breakdown of the loan repayments for the two possible debts: http://imgur.com/a/A4yCy


There might be some degree to which elite firms look at you more closely out of NYU. Sounds like you'll be joining us downtown.

reversejinx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby reversejinx » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:52 pm

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Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:31 pm

reversejinx wrote:
ahduth wrote:There might be some degree to which elite firms look at you more closely out of NYU. Sounds like you'll be joining us downtown.


Leiter agrees (at least in 2008): http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I guess I will be! What's the mascot again?!


The Violets. :lol:

I'd be wary of self-selection in those elite firm rankings (as with all rankings). I think there are not a few people like me who passed on Columbia because they would also pass on Wachtell. Prestige only dulls the pain so much when you're billing 3000 hours a year. Those same elite firms may not be reaching as deep into Michigan's class, but Michigan grads may have stiffed them in the past so... who knows. The Village is more fun than Ann Arbor anyhow.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:34 pm

I think I overstated. I would say that the outside-of-NYC placement is close, and may favor NYU, but not by 60K. And you can probably get just about any job from either of these schools.

I have just heard anecdotally that M spreads its grads out more than any other school

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:56 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:I think I overstated. I would say that the outside-of-NYC placement is close, and may favor NYU, but not by 60K. And you can probably get just about any job from either of these schools.

I have just heard anecdotally that M spreads its grads out more than any other school


I think it may be that whole, middle of the country in a dying state thing.

Renzo
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Renzo » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:10 pm

ahduth wrote:
reversejinx wrote:
ahduth wrote:There might be some degree to which elite firms look at you more closely out of NYU. Sounds like you'll be joining us downtown.


Leiter agrees (at least in 2008): http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I guess I will be! What's the mascot again?!


The Violets.


The Blawbcat.

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Lawlcat
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Lawlcat » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:25 pm

reversejinx wrote:Ok, that's it. I have to make a decision, and I'm going to base it entirely on how much more of an edge NYU gives me in biglaw. I'd love to get a breakdown of NYC and other markets, but even without that, I'd like to know if say I'm slightly below median at both schools, is biglaw still a guarantee for me out of NYU but significantly less likely at Michigan? If yes then I'm going to NYU, if no then I'm going to Michigan.

Thanks for all your help everyone!


...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004

I also did an average over the past few years for each school (a few different versions); I don't have that handy, and I need to get back to exams, but basically there's about a 5% difference between Michigan and NYU. (That's BigLaw + federal clerkships.) I don't have any data on how they compare at subsections of BigLaw, e.g. NY BigLaw (except that you'd expect NYU to be stronger there).

sup
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby sup » Sun May 01, 2011 12:15 am

NYU. Better national and international reputation, and makes more sense if you are planning on working in NYC.

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badfish
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby badfish » Sun May 01, 2011 12:20 am

Come to NYU.

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BruceWayne
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby BruceWayne » Sun May 01, 2011 12:48 am

60,000 extra dollars, plus 3 or 4 times the COL to attend a school with the same rep in any and everything, except for a moderately better shot at getting a firm job at a firm where you probably won't last more than 3 years, and where you'll lose half of your salary to some of the highest taxes in the country, the highest COL in the country, and huge loan payments. Don't get too indoctrinated into the culture of this website. If you really want to live in NYC then fine. But don't let people talk you into thinking it's a great idea to take on 60K extra debt for a school that's practically indistinguishable.

sup
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby sup » Sun May 01, 2011 12:54 am

BruceWayne wrote:60,000 extra dollars, plus 3 or 4 times the COL to attend a school with the same rep in any and everything, except for a moderately better shot at getting a firm job at a firm where you probably won't last more than 3 years, and where you'll lose half of your salary to some of the highest taxes in the country, the highest COL in the country, and huge loan payments. Don't get too indoctrinated into the culture of this website. If you really want to live in NYC then fine. But don't let people talk you into thinking it's a great idea to take on 60K extra debt for a school that's practically indistinguishable.


NYU surpasses Michigan in reputation, location, and general academic quality (according to most sources), so I would say it's worth the extra $60k in the long run.

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BruceWayne
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby BruceWayne » Sun May 01, 2011 1:00 am

sup wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:60,000 extra dollars, plus 3 or 4 times the COL to attend a school with the same rep in any and everything, except for a moderately better shot at getting a firm job at a firm where you probably won't last more than 3 years, and where you'll lose half of your salary to some of the highest taxes in the country, the highest COL in the country, and huge loan payments. Don't get too indoctrinated into the culture of this website. If you really want to live in NYC then fine. But don't let people talk you into thinking it's a great idea to take on 60K extra debt for a school that's practically indistinguishable.


NYU surpasses Michigan in reputation, location, and general academic quality (according to most sources), so I would say it's worth the extra $60k in the long run.


As someone mentioned earlier the schools jockey back in forth in rep: most years Michigan has a higher practioner's score, while NYU has a higher academic score--this year they reversed in that. Location is totally subjective, and as he mentioned living in NYC as a broke kid sucks. Not to mention law school is so competitive and time consuming that he won't have time to enjoy it--at least not if he wants a chance at these jobs that people say NYU is better at getting him. And general academic quality means absolutely nothing to anyone but professors and kids on internet forums. It won't get you a job and by the time you're done with your first semester you'll realize that a lot of what "elite" professors say is just their personal opinions dressed up with philosophy. Especially since many of them have never even practiced law.

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Lawlcat
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Lawlcat » Sun May 01, 2011 1:10 am

Here are the highlights:

% of class in BigLaw + % of class in federal clerkships

2009
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5f4d940ea9.png

2010
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/7edd4baeb0.png
Note: 2010 uses an estimate for clerkships. Clerkship numbers fluctuate maybe a couple percent year to year, so I don't think this is a problem.

Michigan and NYU are virtually indistinguishable. (Michigan does slightly better, but I don't think this rough measure is precise enough to justify making a big deal about small apparent differences.)

It's possible that:

(1) NYU grads are getting *better* BigLaw (esp in NYC)
(2) NYU grads are outperforming Michigan ITE

but without data to confirm/dispel these hypotheses, I question the sensibility of relying upon them in making a decision.

09042014
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby 09042014 » Sun May 01, 2011 1:38 am

NYU is probably equal to Michigan + 15% better in their class. Is that 15% worth 60K. Probably not.

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 4:42 pm

Lawlcat wrote:Michigan and NYU are virtually indistinguishable. (Michigan does slightly better, but I don't think this rough measure is precise enough to justify making a big deal about small apparent differences.)

It's possible that:

(1) NYU grads are getting *better* BigLaw (esp in NYC)
(2) NYU grads are outperforming Michigan ITE

but without data to confirm/dispel these hypotheses, I question the sensibility of relying upon them in making a decision.


Well, it does seem that NYU seats appreciably more people at top ~50 firms than Michigan, just based on the attorney rosters I've looked at. NLJ250 is such a broad cut it's hard to say what's going on in there - if you look earlier in the thread, NYU is a clear cut above MI at MoFo and Gibson for example.

I personally would've taken 60k at Michigan, and I'll sit here and defend NYU's placement power all day. But he seemed to want to maximize his chances of big law, no matter what the cost. NYU is a pretty logical choice over Michigan if you're going to ignore money altogether.

edit: Even at Sidley, which is based in Chicago, NYU has 28 associates to Michigan's 30. We need to be clear about what kind of "big law" we're going for when we talk about placement numbers.

reversejinx
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby reversejinx » Sun May 01, 2011 5:19 pm

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Last edited by reversejinx on Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 5:23 pm

reversejinx wrote:Also, BruceWayne seems to be most against my going to NYU. I'd love to hear more of what he has to say!


The muggers who killed Bruce Wayne's parents went to NYU. He's never been able to forgive the school.

At least that's my theory. He provides a healthily vociferous anti-NYU voice on the boards here.

dooood
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby dooood » Sun May 01, 2011 5:45 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
sup wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:60,000 extra dollars, plus 3 or 4 times the COL to attend a school with the same rep in any and everything, except for a moderately better shot at getting a firm job at a firm where you probably won't last more than 3 years, and where you'll lose half of your salary to some of the highest taxes in the country, the highest COL in the country, and huge loan payments. Don't get too indoctrinated into the culture of this website. If you really want to live in NYC then fine. But don't let people talk you into thinking it's a great idea to take on 60K extra debt for a school that's practically indistinguishable.


NYU surpasses Michigan in reputation, location, and general academic quality (according to most sources), so I would say it's worth the extra $60k in the long run.


As someone mentioned earlier the schools jockey back in forth in rep: most years Michigan has a higher practioner's score, while NYU has a higher academic score--this year they reversed in that. Location is totally subjective, and as he mentioned living in NYC as a broke kid sucks. Not to mention law school is so competitive and time consuming that he won't have time to enjoy it--at least not if he wants a chance at these jobs that people say NYU is better at getting him. And general academic quality means absolutely nothing to anyone but professors and kids on internet forums. It won't get you a job and by the time you're done with your first semester you'll realize that a lot of what "elite" professors say is just their personal opinions dressed up with philosophy. Especially since many of them have never even practiced law.

+1

Renzo
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Renzo » Sun May 01, 2011 6:09 pm

ahduth wrote:
reversejinx wrote:Also, BruceWayne seems to be most against my going to NYU. I'd love to hear more of what he has to say!


The muggers who killed Bruce Wayne's parents went to NYU. He's never been able to forgive the school.

At least that's my theory. He provides a healthily vociferous anti-NYU voice on the boards here.


It's not just NYU he hates, it's all of New York. I'm convinced that NYC raped his grandma or something similarly as terrible.




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