Cleveland Marshall School of Law VERSUS Mississippi College Forum

[Ersatz Haderach]

If you must pick between the two, go with C-M. Marshall had a halfway decent reputation in Cleveland.

If these are your only choices, I suggest Marshall as well. It's cheap. And I would not attend Mississippi College if it was free. Consider retaking the LSAT if it will improve your prospects. I don't see how it couldn't.

Don't totally ignore the trolls - There are good reasons to have second thoughts if you're paying sticker at only T3/T4 schools. Marshall is under 20k once you get in-state, which isn't so bad, and it has a good local reputation, but keep in mind - Case Western is literally right down Euclid Avenue, and ranked far higher than Marshall. CSU-M is fine if you want to do local government, prosecutor's office, public defender, county government, or certain firms, but almost every firm is going to look at OSU, Case, Cinci, and then at the top part of CSU. You will have to do very well to attract serious employer interest, or have some outside talent/experience that sets you far apart.

Be careful and have a good financial plan if you're really going. Don't go to Mississippi. Just don't. The profile on this site should be enough to turn you away.

[red_alertz]

OP clearly said it was between these two schools, although his top choices are still pending, retake was not even an option, why always induce the arrogant retake approach when OP already ruled it out? both r good schools, gl where u go OP

[romothesavior]

OP clearly said it was between these two schools, although his top choices are still pending, retake was not even an option, why always induce the arrogant retake approach when OP already ruled it out? both r good schools, gl where u go OP

Because dipshits like you always forget another (often the best) option: don't go. No one has a gun to their head with the option of "Go to this terrible law school OR ELSE!" Every year, tens of thousands of people willingly go into a lot of debt for schools that offer simply pathetic job prospects. Neither of these schools is good, especially if OP has to go into debt for them.

Also, redalertz, I think you have taken the banner as the stupidest, most annoying, most stubborn, most disliked poster in the on topic forums. Congratulations.

[thexfactor]

Depends if you want to be unemployed in the Midwest or in the South.

south.... at least you wouldnt freeze to death.

In all seriousness, if you have connections in mississippi, then going there might not be the worst option in the world.

[red_alertz]

OP clearly said it was between these two schools, although his top choices are still pending, retake was not even an option, why always induce the arrogant retake approach when OP already ruled it out? both r good schools, gl where u go OP

Because dipshits like you always forget another (often the best) option: don't go. No one has a gun to their head with the option of "Go to this terrible law school OR ELSE!" Every year, tens of thousands of people willingly go into a lot of debt for schools that offer simply pathetic job prospects. Neither of these schools is good, especially if OP has to go into debt for them.

Also, redalertz, I think you have taken the banner as the stupidest, most annoying, most stubborn, most disliked poster in the on topic forums. Congratulations.

yeah get in a great school, gain the privilege of telling others retake/don't go, kind of typical heh

[romothesavior]

yeah get in a great school, gain the privilege of telling others retake/don't go, kind of typical heh

You're a fucking idiot. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, CURRENT LAW STUDENTS might know a little bit more about law school than you? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe posters who are saying "Retake or don't go" aren't doing it to be arrogant or elitist or whatever other ridiculous ad hominems you throw at us, but perhaps we actually don't want to see yet another slew of law students take out ridiculous debt for terrible job prospects?

Or how about all the recent grads and practicing attorneys warning about the perils of TTTT law schools on the other blogs, forums, and on ATL? Or what about newspapers like the New York Times, or even the ABA Journal or the Student Lawyer, which have been discussing the scam that law schools are running and the horrendous job prospects for lower tiered schools? Are all of these sources just a bunch of elitist douchebags? Or what about all those cold hard facts, like the fact that there are nowhere near enough legal jobs to absorb the throngs of recent grads every year?

Are all of these people elitist, lying jerks? Or, maybe, just maybe, you're a stubborn dumbass? My money is on the latter.

[bjsesq]

yeah get in a great school, gain the privilege of telling others retake/don't go, kind of typical heh

You're a fucking idiot. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, CURRENT LAW STUDENTS might know a little bit more about law school than you? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe posters who are saying "Retake or don't go" aren't doing it to be arrogant or elitist or whatever other ridiculous ad hominems you throw at us, but perhaps we actually don't want to see yet another slew of law students take out ridiculous debt for terrible job prospects?

Or how about all the recent grads and practicing attorneys warning about the perils of TTTT law schools on the other blogs, forums, and on ATL? Or what about newspapers like the New York Times, or even the ABA Journal or the Student Lawyer, which have been discussing the scam that law schools are running and the horrendous job prospects for lower tiered schools? Are all of these sources just a bunch of elitist douchebags? Or what about all those cold hard facts, like the fact that there are nowhere near enough legal jobs to absorb the throngs of recent grads every year?

Are all of these people elitist, lying jerks? Or, maybe, just maybe, you're a stubborn dumbass? My money is on the latter.

Dude, it's pretty obvious it's finals time because you got suckered in by an obvious troll job.

[thexfactor]

romo is under extreme stress of finals. he doesnt usually get angry like this.
However, I agree with Romo's comments. I guess no one reads anymore. Did anyone read the NYT article on law schools?

[kapital98]

Choose Mississippi. At least it's the only game in town.

No it's not.

your avatar that says i am rad law was much better

YES!

But seriously: OP, Mississippi and Ohio are very different regions for many reasons (geographical, economic, etc...) Make sure you really want to work/live in that area after graduation. If you do and you don't have to take out too much money then good luck!

[romothesavior]

Dude, it's pretty obvious it's finals time because you got suckered in by an obvious troll job.

Probably. Although I'm not so sure... he has too many posts to be just some random troll.

[scammedhard]

romo is under extreme stress of finals. he doesnt usually get angry like this.
However, I agree with Romo's comments. I guess no one reads anymore. Did anyone read the NYT article on law schools?

I did. Also I am a big fan of ATL and TTR and the other scamblogs. I think most TLSers have read them as well, but I have come to realize that many TLSers are so dead set on law school that they allow emotions and feelings take over reason and logic. It's as if many of them just want to be "scammed hard."

[kapital98]

romo is under extreme stress of finals. he doesnt usually get angry like this.
However, I agree with Romo's comments. I guess no one reads anymore. Did anyone read the NYT article on law schools?

I did. Also I am a big fan of ATL and TTR and the other scamblogs. I think most TLSers have read them as well, but I have come to realize that many TLSers are so dead set on law school that they allow emotions and feelings take over reason and logic. It's as if many of them just want to be "scammed hard."

Romo is an elitist. Still, I'm really surprised that he freaked out like that. It is helpful recieving advice from students in law school (much more than a 0L... like BK ) Even though I disagree with Romo and Radlaw on some things their willingness to help others is much appreciated.

To use Romo's style: Did you ever think TLS is extremely self selected and has an overwhelming sense of groupthink? Did you ever think the elitist nature of TLS (which is intended for 'Top-law-students") may bias the advice rendered? Have you ever thought the current recession has made a lot of people furious over employment prospects and are overrepresented in the media? Maybe, just maybe, journalists don't understand, and therefore don't discuss, cyclical unemployment and lag periods?

[scammedhard]

romo is under extreme stress of finals. he doesnt usually get angry like this.
However, I agree with Romo's comments. I guess no one reads anymore. Did anyone read the NYT article on law schools?

I did. Also I am a big fan of ATL and TTR and the other scamblogs. I think most TLSers have read them as well, but I have come to realize that many TLSers are so dead set on law school that they allow emotions and feelings take over reason and logic. It's as if many of them just want to be "scammed hard."

Romo is an elitist. Still, I'm really surprised that he freaked out like that. It is helpful recieving advice from students in law school (much more than a 0L... like BK ) Even though I disagree with Romo and Radlaw on some things their willingness to help others is much appreciated.

To use Romo's style: Did you ever think TLS is extremely self selected and has an overwhelming sense of groupthink? Did you ever think the elitist nature of TLS (which is intended for 'Top-law-students") may bias the advice rendered? Have you ever thought the current recession has made a lot of people furious over employment prospects and are overrepresented in the media? Maybe, just maybe, journalists don't understand, and therefore don't discuss, cyclical unemployment and lag periods?

Maybe... I think the plight of TTTs has been going on for a long time, but only recently, because of the recession, the pain has started to creep up to Tier 1 schools.
The problems of legal education should not ignored.
I also don't think that Romo is an elitist, but if he/she is, so what. One should criticize the message, not the messenger or its style.

[Ersatz Haderach]

I didn't see OP had family connections down south. That makes Mississippi at least plausible if you'll have a job waiting for you. But the schools/markets on their own merits? Marshall all the way.

[romothesavior]

Telling someone not to go to a TTT has nothing to do with "elitism" or anything like that. I went to an undergrad that I'll bet <1% of people on TLS have even heard of, and my law school (while respectable) is nothing to brag about. Most of the people on TLS who you call "elitist" are just average, middle class people who want to graduate with a job they will enjoy and live a decent, middle class lifestyle. With a few exceptions, most of the people on TLS are FAR from highbrow stuck-up assholes. I really don't understand this sentiment from so many of the TLS 0Ls and newbies. And if you think this supposed "elitism" is bad, wait until you get into the legal world.

I think you (and others) are confusing elitism with realistic skepticism. You use the word "elitist" because it is a lot easier to paint the law school naysayers as the "bad guys" rather than actually consider and internalize the message. The message isn't "Don't go to a TTTT because it is less prestigious." The message is, "Don't go to a TTTT because it is expensive and your odds of landing any legal job are not good, let alone a job that will allow you to come anywhere close to paying off your debts." If it were up to me, all law schools would offer respectable job prospects at a reasonable cost. In this ideal world, I would never tell anyone to "re-take or don't go." Lower ranked schools aren't bad because they are lower ranked or less "prestigious;" lower ranked schools are usually bad options because they offer poor job prospects, and they often do it at ridiculously high prices. FWIW, I usually don't even tell people to go to WUSTL (my law school) at sticker.

Also, you may call TLS a big groupthink tank, and to some extent, it is. But that groupthink is also spot on in soooo many ways, especially when it comes to job prospects and the economy. We law students aren't exaggerating when we say things suck. Things are really bad, even for people at top schools. Some of the smartest, nicest, most "employable" 2Ls and 3Ls I know are looking for jobs and stressing about how they are going to find work and manage their debt. How do you think people at Cleveland Marshall and Mississippi College and Ave Maria and Cooley are doing?

[romothesavior]

Maybe, just maybe, journalists don't understand, and therefore don't discuss, cyclical unemployment and lag periods?

Even if it is cyclical, there are not anywhere near enough jobs to go around even in a good economy, and there haven't been in a long long time. The legal market has been oversaturated for decades. In a good economy, this oversaturation primarily hits people in the lower tiers. In this terrible economy we're in, the effects are felt all the way up to the higher ranked schools. So even if the legal economy "recovers" to anything remotely resembling what it was five years ago, this doesn't mean people at lower ranked schools are all of a sudden going to be swimming in job offers. And even if the legal economy recovers, those people who got screwed the last few years (and those who will be unemployed in the near future) will probably never feel the effects of that recovery. In any field, and especially in law, an extended period of unemployment out of school is devastating to your long-term career prospects. Try being a temp contract attorney and finding a full-time attorney job. It's near impossible.

And it took me a while to remember who you are... But now I remember. You were the guy that Mickey Quicknumbers tore apart in the legal economics/job market debate.

[scammedhard]

How do you think people at Cleveland Marshall and Mississippi College and Ave Maria and Cooley are doing?

I am sure people at Cooley are doing fine. After all, they are the #2 school in the US, right after #1 Harvard.

Nice post. Unfortunately, I think that you are preaching to zombies.

[red_alertz]

OP, if you have connections down south, then go to Missi, otherwise, Marshall

[Stringer6]

Red_alertz is pwning

[kapital98]

Maybe, just maybe, journalists don't understand, and therefore don't discuss, cyclical unemployment and lag periods?

Even if it is cyclical, there are not anywhere near enough jobs to go around even in a good economy, and there haven't been in a long long time. The legal market has been oversaturated for decades. In a good economy, this oversaturation primarily hits people in the lower tiers. In this terrible economy we're in, the effects are felt all the way up to the higher ranked schools. So even if the legal economy "recovers" to anything remotely resembling what it was five years ago, this doesn't mean people at lower ranked schools are all of a sudden going to be swimming in job offers. And even if the legal economy recovers, those people who got screwed the last few years (and those who will be unemployed in the near future) will probably never feel the effects of that recovery. In any field, and especially in law, an extended period of unemployment out of school is devastating to your long-term career prospects. Try being a temp contract attorney and finding a full-time attorney job. It's near impossible.

And it took me a while to remember who you are... But now I remember. You were the guy that Mickey Quicknumbers tore apart in the legal economics/job market debate.

I'm glad you remembered me. If you look at the thread you'll see Mickey's chart didn't change anything I posted. If you knew business cycle and labor economics you may not be constantly repeating "the sky has fallen" mantra. Please, look at my posts again. I see no reason to repeat myself.

I never said elitism was bad. That would be a value judgment. I'm saying elitism can significantly alter your view on debatable topics. Please look at the salary distribution graph. ~25% of lawyers make $50,000 or less. This is a middle class income. However, once you go beyond the lower 25% incomes quickly rise into the "upper middle class" and "upper class" category. Income distribution in the U.S. is heavily skewed. Once you start making an income of ~$170,000 you are by all definitions rich. The median lawyer is firmly upper middle class. (If you wish to make the 'debt' argument please go back to the former thread and read about discounting and existence value.)

There is an incredible amount of talk about unemployment among lawyers. Lawyers are not NEARLY as bad off as the general consensus believes. Here is proof: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat25.pdf

People in "Legal Occupations" have a 3.4% unemployment rate in 2009 and a 2.7% unemployment rate in 2010. This is corresponding to a ~10% unemployment rate for the general public. PLEASE, give me some ACTUAL STATISTICS, not anecdotal evidence, to support your claim!

Note: Unemployment is technically different than "I don't have a job." People may leave the labor force because they are too frustrated to look for work and they are no longer considered unemployed. This has obviously happened in the legal market and should be given consideration (it's happened in almost every industry and is why the U6 rate may be a better indicator of unemployment than the U3 rate.)

The key is to understand cyclical unemployment. The structure of the legal industry may have changed but it is doubtful that it radically changed. In professional markets there tends to be a very long lag period (OCI is 2 years before you're even employed!) and this makes cyclical unemployment even more severe.

[kapital98]

P.S. The general unemployment rate for professionals is ~1-2%. The average unemployment rate for the general public is ~5-6%. This is when the economy is not in a recession. Even during the worst economic downturn in 80 years lawyers are still better off than the general public is when things are going good!

[DeeCee]

Nova Southeastern or Barry-- look it up

[red_alertz]

How do you think people at Cleveland Marshall and Mississippi College and Ave Maria and Cooley are doing?

I am sure people at Cooley are doing fine. After all, they are the #2 school in the US, right after #1 Harvard.

Nice post. Unfortunately, I think that you are preaching to zombies.

please try not to mislead OP who is trying to seek information, cooley is NOT #2 in the nation, that's accoding to its own BS rank

[romothesavior]

P.S. The general unemployment rate for professionals is ~1-2%. The average unemployment rate for the general public is ~5-6%. This is when the economy is not in a recession. Even during the worst economic downturn in 80 years lawyers are still better off than the general public is when things are going good!

What in the hell is that data based on? Are you really saying that 2-4% of lawyers are unemployed right now? How is "lawyer" being defined?

If you genuinely believe that, then I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona you may be interested in.

[red_alertz]

P.S. The general unemployment rate for professionals is ~1-2%. The average unemployment rate for the general public is ~5-6%. This is when the economy is not in a recession. Even during the worst economic downturn in 80 years lawyers are still better off than the general public is when things are going good!

What in the hell is that data based on? Are you really saying that 2-4% of lawyers are unemployed right now? How is "lawyer" being defined?

If you genuinely believe that, then I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona you may be interested in.

please stop with the doomsday trolling, i respect ur knowledge as u have experienced law school than a 0L like me, but there's no need to paint such a pessimistic picture for future students