Top Law Schools

What do you guys think about the differences in Wash U versus the University of Illinois?

People seem to believe that Wash U is slightly better in New York and D.C., but obviously not as good in Chicago. It seems that in the past couple of years about 15% of Wash U grads go to Chicago whereas probably more like 30% or more go to Chicago from Illinois. Obviously Wash U is better in St. Louis/Kansas City, where it seems they place about 25% of their grads.

What do you guys think about getting to NYC or DC from Wash U or the University of Illinois?

I'm really just looking for general thoughts on hiring from these two school and whether Wash U is really more national in reach or if that is just B.S. Thanks guys.




P.S. U ILLINOIS TUITION IS GUARANTEED NOT TO INCREASE, WHEREAS WASH U TUITION WILL INCREASE BY ITS ANNUAL RATE

I've talked with some adcomm people and alums from both schools recently. There is a concerted effort at both to expand "out east," but the fact is your chances aren't good. I think both schools are similar as far as NYC and DC are concerned. WUSTL has a very slight edge out west I think, but really its arguing over 1 or 2%. Neither school gives you better than a 5-10% chance of making biglaw in NYC or DC. If you just want to make it at any job in NYC or DC than I think you could probably swing it if you're above median and are willing to do your own legwork/have ties.

UIUC's better presence in Chicago is likely negligible if you want it. WUSTL has more markets it feeds, so self selection comes more into play.

Any other thoughts on the differences between the schools hiring markets?

Did you visit any of these schools yet? I think your decision may come down to personal preferences.

tea_drinker wrote:Did you visit any of these schools yet? I think your decision may come down to personal preferences.

I am in the airport right now about to leave for STL then U illinois.


On another note, can anyone comment on the earnings potential from these schools? You can PM me if you want but I would like some job/finacial security if I graduate in the top half or top third of my class.

I KNOW there are people just itching to constructively add to this thread! Do it.

Earning potential from either school are going to be much less than similarly ranked schools on the east and west coast, as neither school really places well in biglaw. There are only one or two St. Louis firms that would be qualified as biglaw, and those don't pay what the coastal firms pay. Chicago has a number of V100 firms, but you'll have to be on law review to get a position at one from either WUSTL or Illinois.

WUSTL > UIUC for NYC/DC but not good. Top of WUSTL will do great in DC/NYC firms but it won't be pretty outside of that.

Cost of living will be lower at U of I too. But the differences are marginal enough that you should just go where you are happiest in this case. Visit both schools and make a decision from there.

Never understand cost of tuition questions, COA is what actually matters

I like that WashU has a home market.

On the other hand, UIUC would have a very good instate network (particularly outside of big law).

If you are looking at sticker at both, and UIUC has easy instate requirements, UIUC by far in terms of cost/benefit.

However, assuming you don't get NYC/DC from either and you don't want to stay in IL or MO, a WashU degree would likely have an easier time getting you back to where you have ties to.

Regardless of the above, minimize your debt. Neither is worth more than $100,000 of debt.

These are peer schools. Pick the one that is cheaper, or if they are of similar cost then pick the one you prefer.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I like that WashU has a home market.

On the other hand, UIUC would have a very good instate network (particularly outside of big law).

If you are looking at sticker at both, and UIUC has easy instate requirements, UIUC by far in terms of cost/benefit.

However, assuming you don't get NYC/DC from either and you don't want to stay in IL or MO, a WashU degree would likely have an easier time getting you back to where you have ties to.

Regardless of the above, minimize your debt. Neither is worth more than $100,000 of debt.

I am from Pittsburgh and don't know how easy it would be to get there from either of these schools. Id imaginw difficult tho...a good question for career services

They are peer schools in every sense of the word.

At Wash U now. It has a very interesting campus. All of the buildings look "gothic" from the outside but what is important is that they all seem to be very functionally efficient inside. The whole theme seems a bit overdone to be honest. Nice campus tho. Nice area.

Visiting U illinois tomorrow for a few hours. I hope I like that school as well and therefore have two good options, on top of Pitt which makes three.

Wash U (as explained to me) has a lot of money, but not a lot of prestige so they built all their buildings to look like something you'd find at an Ivy. But, I think you'll find the Illinois' law campus is much less impressive building wise. Its next to a cemetery and tucked away in a corner from the main campus.

tea_drinker wrote:Did you visit any of these schools yet? I think your decision may come down to personal preferences.

+1, the cost difference is negligible, and these two schools are as "peer" as peers can be.

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Earning potential from either school are going to be much less than similarly ranked schools on the east and west coast, as neither school really places well in biglaw. There are only one or two St. Louis firms that would be qualified as biglaw, and those don't pay what the coastal firms pay. Chicago has a number of V100 firms, but you'll have to be on law review to get a position at one from either WUSTL or Illinois.

This post is true overall (schools like BU and BC definitely outplace both WUSTL and UIUC), but St. Louis firms pay very well for the city. I agree that St. Louis biglaw doesn't really compare to NYC (or even Chicago biglaw), but I know of at least 8 firms in town that pay 100k+, which is ridiculously good money in St. Louis. Breaking into a St. Louis firm can be really tough, but the financial opportunities in a firm in St. Louis are going to be very strong. 100k in St. Louis will almost certainly take you farther than 160k in NYC, or even 145k in Chicago. And your odds of partnership are significantly higher in a city like St. Louis than they are at a bigfirm in Chicago or NYC, if that's something that a person is interested in possibly pursuing.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I like that WashU has a home market.

UIUC has more of a home market than WashU does. It's also the second or third largest legal market. It also happens to be the same market most WUSTL grads try to end up in. The list of NYC firms going to WUSTL is pretty TTT. Then again UIUC's is even more TTT.

I wouldn't go to either if you weren't going to stay in the midwest.

I wouldn't call St. Louis much of a market. There are what, two big law firms in the area? There are hardly any summer associate positions at large law firms in St. Louis when compared to other cities, which is why the employment prospects out of WUSTL are so dismal.

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:I wouldn't call St. Louis much of a market. There are what, two big law firms in the area? There are hardly any summer associate positions at large law firms in St. Louis when compared to other cities, which is why the employment prospects out of WUSTL are so dismal.

First of all, why are you such an anti-WUSTL troll? It's getting really irritating.

You're right that St. Louis isn't a huge market, but there are 6 NLJ 250 firms and another 2-3 that are close enough to be lumped in with the NLJ 250. Pre-ITE, St. Louis hiring was pretty good, but the city has gotten hit hard ITE. Word on the street (and a pretty reliable word) is that SA hiring will improve in STL this fall. We'll see what happens.

Overall, St. Louis has a pretty sizable legal market for a city of its size. Obviously it is not NYC or Chicago, but I think everyone knows that. The biggest downer on St. Louis is how hard it is to overcome a lack of ties and break into the city if you aren't from the Midwest, which OP is not. And he doesn't even sound interested in STL, so I'm not even really sure why we're debating this in the first place.

Its not about WUSTL. Just discussing St. Louis and Missouri. Of those 6 NLJ250 firms, how many are AMLaw 100 or V100? Just saying. It's not a big legal market. If you take the total number of summer associates at AMLaw 100 or V100 firms in St. Louis, I doubt you get over 20 total in the entire city, if that.

Actually, I'll do it. Firms with over 500 attorneys (there are only three with St. L offices):

husch blackwell llp - 8 summer associates last year
Polsinelli Shughart PC - 2 summer associates last year
BRYAN CAVE LLP - 6 summer associates last year

So, St. Louis has a total of around (given fluctations) 15-20 total summer associate positions at top law firms. That just isn't much of a legal market.

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:So, St. Louis has a total of around (given fluctations) 15-20 total summer associate positions at top law firms.

If Slevin Kelevra's definition of top law firm is the only one that matters, then sure duder.

Look, I don't mind valid, reasonable criticisms of WUSTL or of St. Louis. Our NLJ 250 numbers are low and I don't try to hide it. I also agreed with you that St. Louis isn't that big of a legal market. But don't be ridiculous and exaggerate just to make your point.

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Its not about WUSTL. Just discussing St. Louis and Missouri. Of those 6 NLJ250 firms, how many are AMLaw 100 or V100? Just saying. It's not a big legal market. If you take the total number of summer associates at AMLaw 100 or V100 firms in St. Louis, I doubt you get over 20 total in the entire city, if that.

Actually, I'll do it. Firms with over 500 attorneys (there are only three with St. L offices):

HUSCH BLACKWELL LLP - 8 summer associates last year
Polsinelli Shughart PC - 2 summer associates last year
BRYAN CAVE LLP - 6 summer associates last year

So, St. Louis has a total of around (given fluctations) 15-20 total summer associate positions at top law firms. That just isn't much of a legal market.

That's right, there aren't V10 firms! For that matter V1 firms! Any non-V1 firm job is TTT.