Gonzaga or Kansas?

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jag2014
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Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby jag2014 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:29 pm

I have done plenty of research but still struggling with this decision. I will be visiting both schools and am currently living in FL. However, I can deal with the cold of Spokane, being that Im from Chicago area. I am getting $15,000 from Gonzaga for 3 yrs with what looks to be upper-half of curve for renewal.

My decision criteria is prob much different than most. I am not worried so much about employment prospects immediately upon graduating, being that I will be serving as a Judge Advocate within the USMC. However, I am interested in job opportunities after my service and plan on living in CO. Im assuming Kansas has stronger alum network in CO due to it's proximity?

Also, Im wondering of the perception of Military and how welcoming the two campus' will be?

couple of stats that worry me with Gonzaga: 20% attrition 1st yr..13 transfers out with only 3 in..

Any help would be appreciated, Thanks!

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:58 pm

Wow, that's a crazy stat about Gonzaga. Even without knowing that stat, I would go to Kansas since you have a job lined up after graduation. Kansas is a state flag ship university, Gonzaga is buried in the PNW. If it wasn't for Adam Morrison, I doubt hardly anybody would know that Gonzaga actually existed lol.

jag2014
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby jag2014 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:11 pm

haha! ZAG basketball certainly is the first thing people comment on when I bring this up.

and yes it is..it's expensive but still ridiculous and alarming statistic.

Valid point on the state flagship, thanks for the post :)

rebexness
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby rebexness » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:30 pm

Last edited by rebexness on Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jag2014
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby jag2014 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:34 pm

I realize but waitlisted @ DU and out at CU. Kansas grads went 13 for 13 on the Co Bar last yr..and is a neighbor so I fig it'd be better than Gonzaga?

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:44 pm

jag2014 wrote:I realize but waitlisted @ DU and out at CU. Kansas grads went 13 for 13 on the Co Bar last yr..and is a neighbor so I fig it'd be better than Gonzaga?


I'm no expert on the area, but I'd think so. Plus, you'll have law experience in the military to help you get a job in Colorado which will help you out quite a bit.

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RVP11
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:47 pm

Kansas is going to carry a much, much stronger name in Colorado than Gonzaga.

BeautifulSW
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:34 pm

Wow, waitlisted at DU? They must be getting a lot more applicants these days. You haven't lost anything, I don't think. I dearly love Denver but DU is waaaaay too expensive at sticker. Out at CU is no badge of shame. That school is seriously picky.

These days, I don't think any law school would dare to be military hostile. Well, maybe some of the real nutcases on the Coasts but in general, you'll be welcome wherever you go.

Did you apply to the University of New Mexico?

Oh and of the two, I'd go to Gonzaga but that's because I really like Eastern Washington.

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dr123
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby dr123 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:37 pm

Gonzaga actually has a bigger reach than most people give them credit for. You can find Gonzaga grads all the way from Western MT to the Cascades. There arent any big cities in this area really, but I'll be damned if it isnt a beautiful place to live

BeautifulSW
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Cascades to MT nuthin'...I can think of a half-dozen Gonzaga lawyers here in N.Mex. and I don't even keep track of that sort of thing.

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mrtoren
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby mrtoren » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:19 pm

Kansas..for many of the reasons listed above. However, after you get out of the military, your law school won't really matter as much. Law school recognition is all about acquiring your first job and you've got that covered. After that, its about your performance in your first job.

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RVP11
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby RVP11 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:49 am

mrtoren wrote:\Law school recognition is all about acquiring your first job and you've got that covered. After that, its about your performance in your first job.


Let's be honest. This isn't really true.

It might be true in this case - the difference between Kansas and Gonzaga is minimal - but having Yale Law School or Harvard Law School on your resume makes a lifetime difference, if all else is equal. It buys you a certain benefit of the doubt.

JakeL
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby JakeL » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:52 am

dr123 wrote:Gonzaga actually has a bigger reach than most people give them credit for. You can find Gonzaga grads all the way from Western MT to the Cascades. There arent any big cities in this area really, but I'll be damned if it isnt a beautiful place to live


lol is this a subtle flame? Cascades to W MT is 300 miles of nothing other than scenery...

BeautifulSW
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby BeautifulSW » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:53 pm

Nothing other than scenery?

True, I'm afraid, except for the Spokane area. The county has about a half million population and that counts as mid-size, I guess. There's also the growing Boise tech manufacturing base but I'd bet that those companies hire their lawyers from Wall Street, NYC not Main Street, Boise. The closest substantial market south of Spokane is Salt Lake City and they have two law schools of their own.

You could actually extend the description to include everything between the Cascades and the Twin Cities (except for the "scenery" part) and north of the Salt Lake/Denver line. There are law jobs but the pay seems to tend really, really low.

Even my desolate, isolated, backwards state has the Albuquerque/Santa Fe and fringe El Paso markets. But as I said earlier, Gonzaga grads do come here and get jobs. Whether the pay is enough to service the kind of debt a Gonzaga J.D. might represent is an entirely different issue though.

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dr123
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby dr123 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:01 pm

JakeL wrote:
dr123 wrote:Gonzaga actually has a bigger reach than most people give them credit for. You can find Gonzaga grads all the way from Western MT to the Cascades. There arent any big cities in this area really, but I'll be damned if it isnt a beautiful place to live


lol is this a subtle flame? Cascades to W MT is 300 miles of nothing other than scenery...


Billings, Helena, Boise, Cour D'Alene, Spokane, Yakima, Missoula, Kennewick etc..., While none of these cities are NYC or LA, theyre much more than just scenery

BeautifulSW
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby BeautifulSW » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:56 pm

That is very true if the OP is interested in a general county-seat type practice. That's my own history, in a way, except that I took state jobs in those small cities. It worked really well for me but I didn't owe a hundred K in student loans. If the op can survive on $45K to start, it can be done. But general practice, taking whatever comes through the door, is scary and in a small city, thet's what you have to do.

For MY part, small city life is much to be preferred over large city life. But that's NOT the usual attitude.

sccjnthn
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby sccjnthn » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:16 pm

I didn't attend Kansas but can tell you the state as a whole is very friendly to the military. KU has all of the ROTC programs and Fort Leavenworth is within an hour's drive. There is also another large Army fort about 90 miles west.

I also think Kansas City is a fairly underrated city with quite a few entertainment options.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:19 pm

RVP11 wrote:
mrtoren wrote:\Law school recognition is all about acquiring your first job and you've got that covered. After that, its about your performance in your first job.


Let's be honest. This isn't really true.


It actually is pretty true. Your first job (or second if you get a new one within 3 years) will be based primarily off of the name on your degree (and to a lesser extent, grades). Most of your subsequent jobs will be based off of what you did during your first three years out of school. Ask anyone who actually practices law.

Bottom line - if you pay a premium for your degree and miss out on great options immediately out of school, your degree has already lost a significant amount of it's value (and you still owe all of the debt). 4 years after graduation, your degree itself is worth about the same as a $40,000/year TTTT degree - what matters is your experience and your book of business.

OP - I vote Kansas. It's respectable school.

evanvanreg
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby evanvanreg » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:11 am

I am not worried so much about employment prospects immediately upon graduating, being that I will be serving as a Judge Advocate within the USMC.


How do you know? You have to apply and go through a rigorous interview process, as well as it being highly competitive and selective. I am a former Marine Police Officer and worked with Marine Jag's firsthand daily. They told me it's akin to getting a BigLaw job in the way the Marine Corps selects its Jag's, i.e. they look for Tier 1 grads. Not trying to burst your bubble, just wanted to give you a heads up to help you make your decision. Definitely go with the higher ranked and more specialized school you can.

sccjnthn
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby sccjnthn » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:39 am

Probably already accepted through Flep.

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RVP11
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby RVP11 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:14 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
mrtoren wrote:\Law school recognition is all about acquiring your first job and you've got that covered. After that, its about your performance in your first job.


Let's be honest. This isn't really true.


It actually is pretty true. Your first job (or second if you get a new one within 3 years) will be based primarily off of the name on your degree (and to a lesser extent, grades). Most of your subsequent jobs will be based off of what you did during your first three years out of school. Ask anyone who actually practices law.

Bottom line - if you pay a premium for your degree and miss out on great options immediately out of school, your degree has already lost a significant amount of it's value (and you still owe all of the debt). 4 years after graduation, your degree itself is worth about the same as a $40,000/year TTTT degree - what matters is your experience and your book of business.

OP - I vote Kansas. It's respectable school.


A few points:

1. The person I was responding to said "Law school recognition is ALL about acquiring your first job." It clearly isn't. All else equal (grades, firm, personality, experience, etc.) a YHS grad will have better job prospects than a random T14 grad. Believe it. The little things matter in this profession, and having the YHS stamp of approval can go a long way.

2. Obviously your current job and your experience matter way more than the name on your degree when looking for the next job. I would never debate that.

3. No one has a "book of business" 4 years after graduation unless they're working at Mom & Pop SmallLaw.

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romothesavior
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:39 am

So you're from Chicago, you are currently living in Florida, you want to work in Colorado, and you're debating whether to go to Kansas or Gonzaga? lolwut

You should pick a school in a location you want to work in, and hopefully a place where you have some ties. Even if you are going to USMC JAG route, you should go somewhere that you want to work in so you can network for your post-military career.

JakeL
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby JakeL » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:37 pm

dr123 wrote:
JakeL wrote:
dr123 wrote:Gonzaga actually has a bigger reach than most people give them credit for. You can find Gonzaga grads all the way from Western MT to the Cascades. There arent any big cities in this area really, but I'll be damned if it isnt a beautiful place to live


lol is this a subtle flame? Cascades to W MT is 300 miles of nothing other than scenery...


Billings, Helena, Boise, Cour D'Alene, Spokane, Yakima, Missoula, Kennewick etc..., While none of these cities are NYC or LA, theyre much more than just scenery


Billings isn't in Western Montana. I guess my point is that just because they have a grad in Helena, doesn't mean they really reach there. If you want Montana at all, you go to UM. I wouldn't be surprised if GU outplaced UI in Coeur d'Alene though.

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dr123
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby dr123 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:19 pm

dud next to U Montana most Montana lawyers went to Gonzaga

BeautifulSW
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Re: Gonzaga or Kansas?

Postby BeautifulSW » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:41 pm

I'm glad that I went to law school twenty-five years ago and it ended up being close to free. I didn't know anything about the market or rankings or job prospects so I just went to the only school I applied to, the University of New Mexico because I was living in Belen, 30 miles south of Albuquerque and was a N.Mex. resident.

This was sheer luck, friends. I KNOW what I would have done if I were in the OP's position. I'd go to Gonzaga just because I love Eastern Washington and the Idaho Panhandle. But Gonzaga was expensive even then. As it turned out, my very lack of choice served me well.

Even now? I'd go to Spokane. Maybe choice isn't always a good thing.




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