Penn$$ vs NYU$

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Penn or NYU in my situation?

Penn ($52K scholly)
89
72%
NYU ($35K scholly)
35
28%
 
Total votes: 124

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Veyron
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby Veyron » Sun May 13, 2012 2:26 am

Also, why don't we compile a list of hires for V10 firms' non-NYC offices?


Or acknowledge the fact that V rankings are meaningless outside of NYC.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby r6_philly » Sun May 13, 2012 2:31 am

Veyron wrote:
Also, why don't we compile a list of hires for V10 firms' non-NYC offices?


Or acknowledge the fact that V rankings are meaningless outside of NYC.


I wouldn't go as far as meaningless since they offer good exit options. But my point is NYU self-selects to NYC more than Penn does even thought Penn's primary market is NYC. That plus the 2:1 class size should adequately account for the SA numbers. A good percentage of Penn students bid on NY as safety or don't bid there at all.

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soj
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby soj » Sun May 13, 2012 3:36 am

r6_philly wrote:
soj wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ That and, of course, there are a lot more kids at NYU so we would expect the aggrigate numbers of NYU kids in any given position to be higher. Honestly, I don't get why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.

Some people do commit this flaw, but I think a lot of the time people are taking class sizes into account (i.e. NYU places 2x or more in certain firms, and NYU is not that much bigger than Penn).


ABA data:

Penn 1st year: 249

249 x 2 = 498

NYU 1st year: 476

NYU is that much bigger, and you are not accounting for it.

I hate to nitpick, but I'm referring to posts like anli's that give examples of firms where NYU places more than 2x, sometimes more than 3x. I realize it's just one firm that may not be representative of the general reality (I happen to think his argument is quite weak), but not every argument about placement power (in this thread or otherwise) can be dismissed with class size alone. I think we can agree on that.

anli
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby anli » Sun May 13, 2012 4:41 am

r6_philly wrote:Your premise may be correct, but your proffered statistical evidence could be very skewed for a variety of reasons. Judges and firms all have favorites for different reasons. You are supposed to view things in aggregate. Class size, regional self-selection, and other factors are also issues. It makes sense to conclude that NYU is better for NY opportunities. But you shouldn't equate top-end with NY. That's where most of the jobs are, but that doesn't make them top-end.


(1) I was offering my anecdotal experience, not statistical data. In any case, I am not conflating NY with "top-end." Although I summered at a NYC firm, I received several offers from firms in D.C. and L.A. The judge for whom I will be clerking is not in NY.

(2) But to be clear: as a matter of statistical data, NYU does place substantially better than Penn at top-end legal positions, both aggregate and per capita, on a national market and across a variety of fields. A few relevant metrics:

Tenure-track academic positions: http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml
Recent placement in the Ninth and D.C. Circuits (the Second and Third do give a home-school advantage): --LinkRemoved-- , --LinkRemoved--
SCOTUS placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... ment.shtml
Bristow fellows: --LinkRemoved--

I don't have the time to pull together figures, but the results are similar if you look at representation (aggregate or proportional to class size) at the top law firms, including those not headquartered in NYC (Kirkland, Quinn, Munger, etc.). There are a few exceptions: Williams & Connolly, for example, does prefer Penn.

It is true that the difference in top-end placement between NYU and Penn is minuscule compared to that between NYU and HYS; the latter is almost an order of magnitude higher. But NYU sends a consistent, if small, stream of graduates into those spots, while Penn sends almost none. That was difference enough for me. Depending on your risk calculus, it may not be for you.
Last edited by anli on Sun May 13, 2012 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby Veyron » Sun May 13, 2012 4:45 am

r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Also, why don't we compile a list of hires for V10 firms' non-NYC offices?


Or acknowledge the fact that V rankings are meaningless outside of NYC.


I wouldn't go as far as meaningless since they offer good exit options. But my point is NYU self-selects to NYC more than Penn does even thought Penn's primary market is NYC. That plus the 2:1 class size should adequately account for the SA numbers. A good percentage of Penn students bid on NY as safety or don't bid there at all.


Exit options do not correlate with V rankings that well outside of New York.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby r6_philly » Sun May 13, 2012 10:58 am

soj wrote:I hate to nitpick, but I'm referring to posts like anli's that give examples of firms where NYU places more than 2x, sometimes more than 3x. I realize it's just one firm that may not be representative of the general reality (I happen to think his argument is quite weak), but not every argument about placement power (in this thread or otherwise) can be dismissed with class size alone. I think we can agree on that.


If you like to nitpick, then you should not simply put "2x OR more" in your post, because 2x is what NYU should place since the class is 2x. Your careless mistake is a nice illustration of how people don't really pause and think about how much bigger the classes are before making snap judgements on hiring comparisons.

If you had said "at some firms NYU place way more than 2x than Penn even though the class size is only 2x Penn ..." then I would not have replied.

chasgoose
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby chasgoose » Sun May 13, 2012 11:16 am

r6_philly wrote:
soj wrote:I hate to nitpick, but I'm referring to posts like anli's that give examples of firms where NYU places more than 2x, sometimes more than 3x. I realize it's just one firm that may not be representative of the general reality (I happen to think his argument is quite weak), but not every argument about placement power (in this thread or otherwise) can be dismissed with class size alone. I think we can agree on that.


If you like to nitpick, then you should not simply put "2x OR more" in your post, because 2x is what NYU should place since the class is 2x. Your careless mistake is a nice illustration of how people don't really pause and think about how much bigger the classes are before making snap judgements on hiring comparisons.

If you had said "at some firms NYU place way more than 2x than Penn even though the class size is only 2x Penn ..." then I would not have replied.


I hate to be that person, but at some firms NYU does place way more than 2x Penn. Skadden NY has 8 students from NYU and 1 from Penn, DPW has 23 from NYU and 2 from Penn etc. For people who want exit options into the financial services industry, those are two of the top options in both NYC and the nation.

hds2388
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby hds2388 » Sun May 13, 2012 11:43 am

I know at least 2 people from penn going to skadden NY, so that's already a lie

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soj
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby soj » Sun May 13, 2012 11:52 am

r6_philly wrote:
soj wrote:I hate to nitpick, but I'm referring to posts like anli's that give examples of firms where NYU places more than 2x, sometimes more than 3x. I realize it's just one firm that may not be representative of the general reality (I happen to think his argument is quite weak), but not every argument about placement power (in this thread or otherwise) can be dismissed with class size alone. I think we can agree on that.


If you like to nitpick, then you should not simply put "2x OR more" in your post, because 2x is what NYU should place since the class is 2x. Your careless mistake is a nice illustration of how people don't really pause and think about how much bigger the classes are before making snap judgements on hiring comparisons.

If you had said "at some firms NYU place way more than 2x than Penn even though the class size is only 2x Penn ..." then I would not have replied.

In most recent years Penn has been actually a little bigger than half of NYU, so my saying "2x or more" is hardly inappropriate or indicative of snap judgment. Again, I realize no single firm is representative, that hiring levels can fluctuate from year to year, and that at these levels one or two more people could be the difference between 2x and 3x, but that's why I expressed a lot of caution and skepticism in my post. It's pretty ridiculous that you're continuing this hair-splitting discussion when my overall point of using more than just class sizes to explain placement differences isn't exactly revolutionary.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby birdlaw117 » Sun May 13, 2012 11:53 am

hds2388 wrote:I know at least 2 people from penn going to skadden NY, so that's already a lie

Or, you know, it's data from the previous year...

BUT IT MUST BE A LIE BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE WHAT IT SAYS!

hds2388
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby hds2388 » Sun May 13, 2012 12:11 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
hds2388 wrote:I know at least 2 people from penn going to skadden NY, so that's already a lie

Or, you know, it's data from the previous year...

BUT IT MUST BE A LIE BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE WHAT IT SAYS!

I don't care a bit what it says. I just think using statistics as a proxy for "I know what I'm talking about" when the statistics are false is unhelpful. If the data is old he/she should say that so someone doesn't take it as current. Sorry i said lie.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby birdlaw117 » Sun May 13, 2012 12:23 pm

hds2388 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
hds2388 wrote:I know at least 2 people from penn going to skadden NY, so that's already a lie

Or, you know, it's data from the previous year...

BUT IT MUST BE A LIE BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE WHAT IT SAYS!

I don't care a bit what it says. I just think using statistics as a proxy for "I know what I'm talking about" when the statistics are false is unhelpful. If the data is old he/she should say that so someone doesn't take it as current. Sorry i said lie.

You said GOING there, he's talking about people that ARE there. It was really clear.

It's a 1 year difference and doesn't have any bearing on what's being discussed since it was being used as an example, so to say that the statistics are false is just being a douche. Stop being a douche.

hds2388
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby hds2388 » Sun May 13, 2012 1:06 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
hds2388 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
hds2388 wrote:I know at least 2 people from penn going to skadden NY, so that's already a lie

Or, you know, it's data from the previous year...

BUT IT MUST BE A LIE BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE WHAT IT SAYS!

I don't care a bit what it says. I just think using statistics as a proxy for "I know what I'm talking about" when the statistics are false is unhelpful. If the data is old he/she should say that so someone doesn't take it as current. Sorry i said lie.

You said GOING there, he's talking about people that ARE there. It was really clear.

It's a 1 year difference and doesn't have any bearing on what's being discussed since it was being used as an example, so to say that the statistics are false is just being a douche. Stop being a douche.


Well it was apparently clear to you and unclear to me. I'm sorry I called it a lie, again; it has clearly upset you. That said I think a one year difference is significant given the difference between 2012 OCI hiring and 2011 hiring for NYC (I found it a vast difference). If the unclarity I read in was my own fault, then I truly, sincerely apologize. That said, I think your going there/are there distinction is no clearer, but maybe it's just my bad reading comp.

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Sherwood2014
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby Sherwood2014 » Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm

I think the heart of the question is: everything being equal, if there are two grads with equal scores, interviewing skills, etc., in most cases, who has the advantage―grad from Penn or NYU?

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Detrox
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby Detrox » Sun May 13, 2012 3:50 pm

Sherwood2014 wrote:I think the heart of the question is: everything being equal, if there are two grads with equal scores, interviewing skills, etc., in most cases, who has the advantage―grad from Penn or NYU?


Depends on your goals, target location, and how many posts you can make in the Choosing a Law School Forum that say CCNP or CCP.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby r6_philly » Sun May 13, 2012 5:03 pm

soj wrote:In most recent years Penn has been actually a little bigger than half of NYU, so my saying "2x or more" is hardly inappropriate or indicative of snap judgment. Again, I realize no single firm is representative, that hiring levels can fluctuate from year to year, and that at these levels one or two more people could be the difference between 2x and 3x, but that's why I expressed a lot of caution and skepticism in my post. It's pretty ridiculous that you're continuing this hair-splitting discussion when my overall point of using more than just class sizes to explain placement differences isn't exactly revolutionary.


How are you going to be a lawyer if you can't stand a little hair splitting - especially when it comes to imprecise quotation/use/representation of stats?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby r6_philly » Sun May 13, 2012 5:04 pm

Sherwood2014 wrote:I think the heart of the question is: everything being equal, if there are two grads with equal scores, interviewing skills, etc., in most cases, who has the advantage―grad from Penn or NYU?


If you have a good interview skills and above median grades, doesn't matter. If you don't, then depends on what market/type of firms you want. (for NY, go to NYU. For Philly, go to Penn, etc.)

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soj
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby soj » Sun May 13, 2012 5:19 pm

r6_philly wrote:
soj wrote:In most recent years Penn has been actually a little bigger than half of NYU, so my saying "2x or more" is hardly inappropriate or indicative of snap judgment. Again, I realize no single firm is representative, that hiring levels can fluctuate from year to year, and that at these levels one or two more people could be the difference between 2x and 3x, but that's why I expressed a lot of caution and skepticism in my post. It's pretty ridiculous that you're continuing this hair-splitting discussion when my overall point of using more than just class sizes to explain placement differences isn't exactly revolutionary.


How are you going to be a lawyer if you can't stand a little hair splitting - especially when it comes to imprecise quotation/use/representation of stats?

Heh, if I really couldn't stand a little hairsplitting, would I have addressed your point the way I did in my previous post, showing how "2x or more" is actually quite appropriate? Nice try changing the topic with your patronizing attitude, but no need to be worried for me.

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Dany
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Re: Penn$$ vs NYU$

Postby Dany » Sun May 13, 2012 5:20 pm

r6_philly wrote:
soj wrote:In most recent years Penn has been actually a little bigger than half of NYU, so my saying "2x or more" is hardly inappropriate or indicative of snap judgment. Again, I realize no single firm is representative, that hiring levels can fluctuate from year to year, and that at these levels one or two more people could be the difference between 2x and 3x, but that's why I expressed a lot of caution and skepticism in my post. It's pretty ridiculous that you're continuing this hair-splitting discussion when my overall point of using more than just class sizes to explain placement differences isn't exactly revolutionary.


How are you going to be a lawyer if you can't stand a little hair splitting - especially when it comes to imprecise quotation/use/representation of stats?

Ugh I hate law students.




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