Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
tea_drinker
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm

samsonyte16 wrote:Neither decision is insane. Paying for Harvard is a sound investment, as is the scholarship at Columbia. Which one he/she takes should come down to her interests and goals, as well as which place seems like the best fit. Speaking as someone who has made the decision between HYS and T10 for free, and has met many others in the same position, I can verify that there is nothing easy or obvious about this choice. My advice is to go to the school that feels the most comfortable and not worry too much about cost/benefit analysis.


This sounds reasonable.

rundoxierun
Posts: 1893
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:46 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby rundoxierun » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:53 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:As someone who will be attending Harvard at a discount, I wouldve taken ANY top 10 full ride over HYS if I were facing sticker.


Not to derail this thread, but didn't you get the Darrow from Michigan?


Yep.. I had full rides at multiple top 10s and strongly considered taking them. I ended up getting 30k/yr. in need-based aid from Harvard so that softens the difference. At sticker, HYS wouldn't have even been in the conversation(Im not one of those people 100% sure I want PI).

ExpectLess
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby ExpectLess » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:55 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ExpectLess wrote:You have to be at a less high rank at Harvard to get the same opportunities as Columbia. To say that Harvard has doors that Columbia can't access is just wrong.

This is absolutely false. However, when it comes to OCI/NYC BigLaw specifically, the gap is too small to be worth discussing.


Being a 0L, your advice is surely more relevant than mine, but it does conflict with what I've heard from a government lawyer and a hiring partner. They both suggested that a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard.

Edit: fwiw, the government guy was also a Harvard alum.

User avatar
tea_drinker
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:03 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:As someone who will be attending Harvard at a discount, I wouldve taken ANY top 10 full ride over HYS if I were facing sticker.


Not to derail this thread, but didn't you get the Darrow from Michigan?


Yep.. I had full rides at multiple top 10s and strongly considered taking them. I ended up getting 30k/yr. in need-based aid from Harvard so that softens the difference. At sticker, HYS wouldn't have even been in the conversation(Im not one of those people 100% sure I want PI).



I see. Thanks for the response.

lakerfanimal
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:22 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby lakerfanimal » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:11 pm

I think it's insane unless you want to go into academia and then become a dean of a law school, want to be an A3 clerk for sure (it's not easy out of either place though..), or if you plan on running for president of our country someday. Maybe I'm missing something else, but if you want to do public interest or work at a firm, then Columbia at a 150k discount is a homerun.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:22 pm

ExpectLess wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ExpectLess wrote:You have to be at a less high rank at Harvard to get the same opportunities as Columbia. To say that Harvard has doors that Columbia can't access is just wrong.

This is absolutely false. However, when it comes to OCI/NYC BigLaw specifically, the gap is too small to be worth discussing.


Being a 0L, your advice is surely more relevant than mine, but it does conflict with what I've heard from a government lawyer and a hiring partner. They both suggested that a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard.

Edit: fwiw, the government guy was also a Harvard alum.


Deadluke and I are 0L's. The guy you are quoting is definitely not.

I also like how they say "top C = any H"

User avatar
FlightoftheEarls
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:40 pm

ExpectLess wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ExpectLess wrote:You have to be at a less high rank at Harvard to get the same opportunities as Columbia. To say that Harvard has doors that Columbia can't access is just wrong.

This is absolutely false. However, when it comes to OCI/NYC BigLaw specifically, the gap is too small to be worth discussing.


Being a 0L, your advice is surely more relevant than mine, but it does conflict with what I've heard from a government lawyer and a hiring partner. They both suggested that a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard.

Edit: fwiw, the government guy was also a Harvard alum.

Actually, I'm curious to hear VW's thoughts on this too. Which doors are actually closed to a student from Columbia as compared to Harvard, rather than just being somewhat-to-substantially more difficult to obtain?

ExpectLess
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby ExpectLess » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:48 pm

I also like how they say "top C = any H"


If from "a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard" you derived "top Columbia students and anyone from Harvard have the same opportunities," that could explain some LSAT questions you might have missed. :P

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:52 pm

ExpectLess wrote:If from "a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard" you derived "top Columbia students and anyone from Harvard have the same opportunities," that could explain some LSAT questions you might have missed. :P


If you felt that the opinions of two lawyers were a statistically significant sample, that could explain why you're going to law school and know nothing about math.

See what I did there?

ExpectLess
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby ExpectLess » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:55 pm

bk1 wrote:
ExpectLess wrote:If from "a top Columbia student has the same opportunities as anyone from Harvard" you derived "top Columbia students and anyone from Harvard have the same opportunities," that could explain some LSAT questions you might have missed. :P


If you felt that the opinions of two lawyers were a statistically significant sample, that could explain why you're going to law school and know nothing about math.

See what I did there?


Haha yes. I'm just kidding around. :P

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:00 pm

ExpectLess wrote:Haha yes. I'm just kidding around. :P


Same. For the hypothetical, if we took the #1 H student versus the #1 C student, would the H student be able to land something the C student couldn't, all things being equal? I don't really know the answer to that and I honestly don't think that a hiring partner could truly tell you (especially because the hiring practices of large firms don't always correspond the words that come out of the mouths of their hiring partners).

ExpectLess
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby ExpectLess » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
ExpectLess wrote:Haha yes. I'm just kidding around. :P


Same. For the hypothetical, if we took the #1 H student versus the #1 C student, would the H student be able to land something the C student couldn't, all things being equal? I don't really know the answer to that and I honestly don't think that a hiring partner could truly tell you (especially because the hiring practices of large firms don't always correspond the words that come out of the mouths of their hiring partners).


Assuming they were equally adept at interviewing and with social skills, I would guess that the #1 H probably could get a few more crazy, non-normal opportunities. But no one is going to be #1 at H. (Or at C, for that matter.)

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:17 pm

ExpectLess wrote:Assuming they were equally adept at interviewing and with social skills, I would guess that the #1 H probably could get a few more crazy, non-normal opportunities. But no one is going to be #1 at H. (Or at C, for that matter.)


You mean it's not possible to tell who is top of the class (I haven't looked closely at their grading schemes)? By your "crazy, non-normal opportunities" comment, it does seem that there are some things open to H not open to C.

User avatar
paratactical
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby paratactical » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:20 pm

ExpectLess wrote:But no one is going to be #1 at H. (Or at C, for that matter.)

Technically, someone will be #1 at H.

User avatar
kurla88
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby kurla88 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:20 pm

Is it Hamilton vs. definitely $0 from Harvard? Has she gotten her finaid package from Harvard yet?

User avatar
blazinswordofjustice
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:52 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby blazinswordofjustice » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:23 pm

lakerfanimal wrote:I think it's insane unless you want to go into academia and then become a dean of a law school, want to be an A3 clerk for sure (it's not easy out of either place though..), or if you plan on running for president of our country someday. Maybe I'm missing something else, but if you want to do public interest or work at a firm, then Columbia at a 150k discount is a homerun.


agreed!

User avatar
Knock
Posts: 5152
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:09 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby Knock » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:32 pm

kurla88 wrote:Is it Hamilton vs. definitely $0 from Harvard? Has she gotten her finaid package from Harvard yet?


I agree this is an important factor. Hamilton vs Harvard at sticker is one thing, and i'd probably lean CLS there, but Hamilton vs Harvard with a decent grant is another and i'd probably lean HLS depending on the amount.

User avatar
Cavalier
Posts: 1994
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby Cavalier » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:42 pm

To add to my earlier post, I think the real advantage of YHS is that you don't have to be at the very top to have amazing opportunities. At UVA, for example, being in the top 3 to 5 students is basically necessary to be competitive for feeder judges, and the opportunities that stem from a feeder clerkship (SCOTUS, Bristow, OLC, etc.). I suspect things are roughly the same at Columbia. At YHS, more students than the top 3 to 5 will be competitive for feeder clerkships. That said, I don't think that's a reason for choosing Harvard over a Hamilton. The vast majority of students who attend Harvard won't be competitive for feeder clerkships, and you certainly can't predict in advance that you'll be near the top of your class.

There's more to life than feeder clerkships. Earning $160,000 while having relatively little debt to pay off is quite a nice situation to be in.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:21 pm

Cavalier wrote:To add to my earlier post, I think the real advantage of YHS is that you don't have to be at the very top to have amazing opportunities. At UVA, for example, being in the top 3 to 5 students is basically necessary to be competitive for feeder judges, and the opportunities that stem from a feeder clerkship (SCOTUS, Bristow, OLC, etc.). I suspect things are roughly the same at Columbia. At YHS, more students than the top 3 to 5 will be competitive for feeder clerkships. That said, I don't think that's a reason for choosing Harvard over a Hamilton. The vast majority of students who attend Harvard won't be competitive for feeder clerkships, and you certainly can't predict in advance that you'll be near the top of your class.

There's more to life than feeder clerkships. Earning $160,000 while having relatively little debt to pay off is quite a nice situation to be in.

All of this is essentially true. There's a couple reasons things aren't "roughly the same" at Columbia, but other than that, I agree with all of it.

The important points are spot on, which are that 1) not everyone who goes to H will have a shot at the things H can potentially do for people, and 2) in this case, OP's "friend" doesn't sound that interested in those things. If you just want BigLaw, then debt-free + CLS is a pretty amazing combination.

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:32 pm

BigBenD wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:Common sentiment is that Hamilton = Harvard. So no, she's not insane. She just has a preference in a really close decision.


I am really skeptical about the truth of that little equation there. It doesn't seem to make any mathematical, logical, or financial sense. Realistically speaking, Columbia can place you almost anywhere that Harvard can, and--all else equal--there would be no reason to expect a higher paying job with a Harvard degree than with a Columbia degree. At the very least, I don't see how that salary difference (if it were to exist) could possibly justify 160K in debt. If you're paying for the prestige, Columbia is plenty prestigious, and Harvard is not 160K more prestigious. It just doesn't make sense. I think you're right, OP--"insane" is the proper adjective.


Yeah people on this site are generally unreasonable in their pursuit for prestige. While HYS at sticker are great options, a full ride to a lower ranked school (even outside the T6) makes logical sense. However, many on tls.com would say they would go to HYS at sticker over a full ride to a T14 in the region they want to practice (which makes absolutely no sense).

4real
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:44 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby 4real » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:34 pm

So a Hamilton > HLS solely for biglaw purposes
but what about Rubenstein or NYU Full-Ride vs. HLS?
Is it more of a T6 + Full-ride > HLS for biglaw? or just Columbia?

And what about T6 + Full-Ride vs. Yale (strictly for big law). It seems like many people still say Yale every time, but I dont understand why if the goal is only a big firm jerb

FiveSermon
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:56 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby FiveSermon » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:36 pm

4real wrote:So a Hamilton > HLS solely for biglaw purposes
but what about Rubenstein or NYU Full-Ride vs. HLS?
Is it more of a T6 + Full-ride > HLS for biglaw? or just Columbia?

And what about T6 + Full-Ride vs. Yale (strictly for big law). It seems like many people still say Yale every time, but I dont understand why if the goals is only a big firm jerb


Going to Yale essentially guarantees you a biglaw job. Even if you graduate near the bottom you should have a good shot at getting a biglaw job (although not at a super prestigious firm).

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:36 pm

4real wrote:So a Hamilton > HLS solely for biglaw purposes
but what about Rubenstein or NYU Full-Ride vs. HLS?
Is it more of a T6 + Full-ride > HLS for biglaw? or just Columbia?

And what about T6 + Full-Ride vs. Yale (strictly for big law). It seems like many people still say Yale every time, but I dont understand why if the goals is only a big firm jerb


For strictly biglaw I would say most T14's (would probably exclude GULC and Cornell but others will disagree) with full tuition > HYS at sticker.

The thing about taking HYS is that biglaw isn't the be all end all.

User avatar
glewz
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby glewz » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:42 pm

For biglaw ITE, your friend should take the Hamilton.

4real
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:44 pm

Re: Insane Not to Accept Hamilton?

Postby 4real » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:46 pm

bk1 wrote:
The thing about taking HYS is that biglaw isn't the be all end all.


and in following your argument, I'm guessing that this where a HYS degree helps?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests