GULC vs. Vandy for California

[jenesaislaw]

OP...http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


Seriously...those USNews private sector employment rankings are turd-infested. I mean...You're talking about 44% reporting for GT? and likewise, only 63% for Vandy? Those 9-month ranks don't mean a darn thing.

For clerking & PI disclosure, it gets even worse.

Believe me, you don't have to convince me that there are serious problems with grouping post-graduation outcomes by the type of employer in such broad categories without any disaggregation. However, the problems are not what you think they are. In 2009, GULC reported employment data about 99.3% of its graduates. Vandy 98.9%. For those in the private sector, GULC reported salary data about 69%. For Vandy it was 89%. The problem, as such, is not a lack of data but a lack of meaningful presentation of that data.

This is why the the NLJ 250 figures are illuminating for the top placing schools. Interestingly, I do not think they make the case for GULC + 60k + interest + marginal utility of 700/month extra in hand.

Looking at the trends in these numbers:

2005: both schools placed a shade over 40%. http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2007: Vandy, again just over 40% with about 41%. GULC with the advantage at about 48%. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 7904889529

2008: Vandy with about 45% and GULC with 49%. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

2009: Vandy with 47% and GULC with 42% http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

2010: Vandy with 30%. GULC with 37%. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

These are useful numbers. But if you see a clear winner based on these, I don't know what to say anymore.


Edit: it is worth re-emphasizing that I only brought up the 9 month rates to discredit an earlier claim that GULC outperforms "almost all other schools" using that metric. It had nothing to do with the Vandy vs. GULC debate and all to do with trying to put a dent into a perpetual flow of bad information and myths.

[jenesaislaw]

i click on the link in this thread which takes me to the blog post. i click on the link there to get to the spread sheet and all i get is an empty window, oh shit i just saw that I downloaded it onto my computer about 8 times. sorry about that.

Hahaha, it's okay. In any case, you can see the data visualized for GULC here: --LinkRemoved--

The entire clearinghouse takes that spreadsheet and makes it more manageable.

[dukey]

Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up

Ha, it doesn't sum up what you think it sums up.

You are saying that Vandy has better national prestige? That's definitely not the case.

The question here is simply whether GT's national reach (in the form of CA biglaw) is worth the $57,997. I think it is worth it, just sayin...considering also the DC networking & living.


What I think the poll reflects = natnl reach/prestige
What does the poll reflect under (what I assume is) your opinion? Rankings. But I think rankings are in line with this difference in natnl reach/prestige. So I don't think there's anything inconsistent going on here.

I decidedly did not say that Vandy has better national prestige. The poll reflects prospectives (and many students) ridiculous obsession with rankings, which, while a decent signpost for various degrees of prestige in legal education, are overvalued for what amounts to relatively minor differences in closely ranked schools. The general T14 concept bears this out in all of its glory. At its base, the group is valued as some indicator of safety, but by doing so makes it seem like GULC is more like Yale than it is Vandy. This is what shapes too many people's warped view that, if you're venturing outside of the T14, you are likely making a bad decision, especially if confronted with a choice that includes a T14 school.

You are right that the appropriate question is whether what GULC offers outweighs what Vandy offers OP, with an emphasis on the OP. It is shocking to me that people so slavishly trust these ridiculous rankings that they think that 60k, assuming all else equal, is not enough to warrant choosing Vandy. It is particularly egregious when you look at the loan payments.

10 years, using an 8% weighted rate:

GULC
Monthly Loan Payment: $2,656.94
Cumulative Payments: $318,832.96

Vandy
Monthly Loan Payment: $1,953.28
Cumulative Payments: $234,393.09

I suspect the marginal utility of that $700/month over 10 years (85k) is much higher than people tend to estimate.

But like I said, it isn't even the case that it's absurd to choose GULC. It could be perfectly reasonable. The prestige difference is just overblown. It should come down to other factors.

soooooooo it does sum up what i thought it summed up. the two of us just have a disagreement on prestige difference. agree to disagree. I personally think networking (huuugely underutilized by law students), environment, biglaw/backup plans are noticeably superior to warrant the $ difference. And TBH, I'd take Vandy's cost of living estimates (on their fin aid website) with a grain of salt, but obviously current Vandy students are better suited for speaking to OP's COA projections.

[FlanAl]

I missed this earlier and I just want to correct what I consider an exaggeration. Using the combined government and PI numbers from 2009, GULC ranks 64th out of 193. If you include clerkships, GULC drops to 67th. I can run the 2007 and 2008 numbers too, if you want, but it's only going to be worse because those were better biglaw years.

Are you ranking these by the percentage of students in pi/gov? like the school with the highest percentage is number 1?

[FlanAl]

also thanks a ton for the spreadsheet!

[jenesaislaw]

I missed this earlier and I just want to correct what I consider an exaggeration. Using the combined government and PI numbers from 2009, GULC ranks 64th out of 193. If you include clerkships, GULC drops to 67th. I can run the 2007 and 2008 numbers too, if you want, but it's only going to be worse because those were better biglaw years.

Are you ranking these by the percentage of students in pi/gov? like the school with the highest percentage is number 1?

Here are my equations and the rank they spit out for GULC:

Govt + PI = 64th
Govt + PI + Clerkships = 67th
(Govt + PI) * % employed = 49th
(Govt + PI + Clerkships) * % employed = 53rd

The rank puts the percentage that is highest as #1 and the percentage that is lowest at 193. 5 Did not report (accounting for the difference between the 198 schools for which we have provided data).

And I know this will be the third time I'm saying this, but I cannot stress it enough. This ranking means very little. I merely made them to show that the earlier poster was dead wrong to claim what he or she did.

[jenesaislaw]

also thanks a ton for the spreadsheet!

Yep. Poke around the data clearinghouse too. I clearly think it is awesome.

[FlanAl]

Something that stuck me looking at these resources is that there were about 25 unemployed gtown kids vs. 3 unemployed vandy kids. Obviously GULC's class size is way bigger but this still makes you think. Please check my math if this doesn't look right to you

[jenesaislaw]

I got 3 for Vandy and 26 for GULC. I definitely think it's easier to find jobs for a smaller number, even if the percentages are the same (which they're not).

I wouldn't think too much of the difference in the # of unemployed grads, though, except to the extent that it might show that smaller schools have an easier time placing their grads. I think this is especially true for Vandy because we have a very wide geographical spread. This is actually even more true in the Class of 2010 and beyond, because the admissions office has done a truly great job with constructing the class.

To me the more interesting statistic is that 84% (GULC) versus 98% (Vandy) of employed grads were in bar-required jobs. GULC's math is also fuzzy. I've placed the disappearing percentage in an "unknown" category, but as the spreadsheet indicates I created this category to make the data manageable.


Edit: I really need to get to bed. I'll check back in the morning.

[Marionberry]

Just thought I would jump back in an rephrase the statement I made earlier. When I said that it places more in gov/PI than other schools, I should have specified that I was referring to "top schools", or really anything within the top 20, based on the assumption that PI/Gov opportunities available to people from schools like Vandy of GULC are probably going to be, to some extent, more prestigious than those available to most law students. I may still be wrong, but I'm basing that conclusion off of what available post graduation employment statistics I've seen that address PI/gov, including those from LST, which put GULC's combined PI/gov numbers (for the class of 2009) at 18.4%, which is a considerable jump from other top schools.

[drylo]

no offense (honestly!): ITT, Vandy grads defend...Vandy

Yeah, I do. I'm not telling the OP to go to Vandy necessarily, though. (After all, part of what I really love about Vandy is that so many people come here because they like it here and want to be here.) But I will defend Vandy because I chose Vandy over much higher ranked options, and I am very happy with my choice. I just hate when TLS posters (often but not always 0Ls) try to scare other people away from choosing Vandy because it is "not T14" or whatever, as if the fact that GULC is one spot ahead of Vandy in the USNWR rankings has any real-world significance.

If you compare employment outcomes (which, as jenesaislaw mentioned, do not even necessarily reflect opportunities), I think it becomes clear that any prestige difference between Vandy and Georgetown is a function of USNWR inertia (and probably lay prestige, depending on the area of the country).

And to your point about networking, I'm not sure if you mean with current students or with professionals, but I don't really think it matters. I don't know if you are already in law school or not (and I don't really care to search your posts to find out), but I think that the whole networking thing is way overblown by 0Ls typically (myself included). The vast majority people will never do any networking in law school, other than making casual friends in your classes. But you don't really need to if you are going to get a job through OCI. If you don't get a job through OCI, networking could maybe be helpful (although almost nobody does it), but networking in Nashville/DC will almost certainly not help the OP get a job in California. If you have anecdotal evidence to the contrary, please share it. But unless you are the rare type of person who is always out there trying to develop a broad network of people, the reality is that you won't suddenly change and do it in law school.

[FlanAl]

don't really want to derail my own thread but in case something crazy happens next week and I get in to UCLA we all think that UCLA (in-state tuition) is the place to go right?

What if I throw Cornell in the mix (it will cost as much as gtown)

(still just complete at both schools)

thanks this way if something happens I won't have to deal with tls lag time to make my hypothetical decision

[Grizz]

don't really want to derail my own thread but in case something crazy happens next week and I get in to UCLA we all think that UCLA (in-state tuition) is the place to go right?

What if I throw Cornell in the mix (it will cost as much as gtown)

(still just complete at both schools)

thanks this way if something happens I won't have to deal with tls lag time to make my hypothetical decision

Way too many permutations dude. Just wait to see what happens. It's exams and I don't really have time to go through each hypo for you. Srry brah.

[FlanAl]

figured as such. good luck with exams all!

[bk1]

don't really want to derail my own thread but in case something crazy happens next week and I get in to UCLA we all think that UCLA (in-state tuition) is the place to go right?

What if I throw Cornell in the mix (it will cost as much as gtown)

(still just complete at both schools)

thanks this way if something happens I won't have to deal with tls lag time to make my hypothetical decision

I think Vandy over GULC/Cornell is the right call. I think that Vandy over UCLA is the rational financial decision. However, if you really want CA and don't mind knowing that 2/3 of the time you are going to end up with 200k debt and a 50k salary, then UCLA will guarantee CA for you with that risk.

That being said, I think that having 150k+ debt with a 50k/year salary would still be pretty bad so while Vandy would save you over 100k once you factor in interest, I think UCLA would be the right call considering the debt at Vandy is still pretty high.

[stylishlaw]

Hey FlanAl, I met you at the Vandy ASD a couple weeks back. Good luck with your decision, but I just wanted to add that you're a cool dude and if you end up at Vandy there'll be some beers waiting for you.

[jenesaislaw]

Hey FlanAl, I met you at the Vandy ASD a couple weeks back. Good luck with your decision, but I just wanted to add that you're a cool dude and if you end up at Vandy there'll be some beers waiting for you.

Now I'm not saying that Vandy is alone in this, but this sums Vandy up.

[FlanAl]

Hey FlanAl, I met you at the Vandy ASD a couple weeks back. Good luck with your decision, but I just wanted to add that you're a cool dude and if you end up at Vandy there'll be some beers waiting for you.

think i know who you are but i'm sure that if there are beers waiting for me I will return the favor over my 3 years

[gogators]

Hey FlanAl, I met you at the Vandy ASD a couple weeks back. Good luck with your decision, but I just wanted to add that you're a cool dude and if you end up at Vandy there'll be some beers waiting for you.

Now I'm not saying that Vandy is alone in this, but this sums Vandy up.

+1

[FlanAl]

just thought I'd give this thread some closure. My deposit is down at g-town. I was really leaning towards Vandy for a while but being that far from the coast, my family, friends and my girlfriend was just too much for me. I really want to thank everyone for all their info and insight.

(I'm on 2 wait lists and a reserve so I may be posting another one of these soon)