GULC vs. Vandy for California

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Vandy vs GULC for California

Poll ended at Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Vandy
30
37%
GULC
51
63%
 
Total votes: 81

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Grizz
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby Grizz » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:10 pm

Plus FlanAl if you go to Vandy you can say you know an internet celeb.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:24 pm

Any thoughts on trying to use a UIUC scholarship to leverage Vandy? I figure they are only a couple spots behind and their scholly is twice as much. And yeah man, internet celebrities and all, the students at vandy seem super legit.

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Magnolia
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby Magnolia » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:35 pm

FlanAl wrote:Any thoughts on trying to use a UIUC scholarship to leverage Vandy? I figure they are only a couple spots behind and their scholly is twice as much. And yeah man, internet celebrities and all, the students at vandy seem super legit.

I think only one person on TLS has reported successfully negotiating with Vandy this cycle, and I think they had a full ride to a t10 or something equally impressive. Everyone else has been shot down.

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Grizz
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby Grizz » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:42 pm

Magnolia wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Any thoughts on trying to use a UIUC scholarship to leverage Vandy? I figure they are only a couple spots behind and their scholly is twice as much. And yeah man, internet celebrities and all, the students at vandy seem super legit.

I think only one person on TLS has reported successfully negotiating with Vandy this cycle, and I think they had a full ride to a t10 or something equally impressive. Everyone else has been shot down.


Agree with this. Vandy pretty much does not negotiate, but it's always worth a try.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:46 pm

hey thanks! my guess is that nothing will change at GULC either so at least I know more what I'm looking at.

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drylo
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby drylo » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:20 am

rad law wrote:
chipchip wrote:GULC 2L here. I know around 10 people or so at least (I honestly have no idea what our final numbers are) that are definitely going to California this summer for summer associate positions with big firms. Grade ranged from Top 10/15 to Top 1/3 to less than that (and some were not even on main journal but on others). Ties are important in this situation, obviously, but they were definitely not disadvantaged.


We had 12 people go to Cali as per the last released list. They seem to be at pretty solid firms judging from the released list, IIRC. This may not seem like a lot, but keep in mind Vandy has a pretty varied geographic distribution and a small class so not a lot of people want Cali anyway.


All true. The bottom line is that Vandy's employment stats compare very favorably with GULC (and I believe all admitted students got a detailed list of employment outcomes from the most recent class--so check it out for yourself). If you have some particular reason to prefer GULC, then by all means, go to school there. But don't get carried away thinking that GULC is going to place better than Vandy.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:35 am

I have to say that I'm definitely impressed with the enthusiasm vandy kids have for their school and their help in this forum. Also want to thank the GULC students too but yeah props to the vandy students.

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:58 pm

We're all happy to help. I share the same annoyedness (is that a word?) as drylo. It should not be apparent on your decision's face that you should choose GULC or Vandy, certainly not in such disproportions as the poll results indicate. It really should come down to other "stuff."

The GULC 2L is right, though - you will have a distinctly different set of semester externships routinely available to, and taken by, those at GULC. But that only matters if that set is the set you covet. If you want to do something related to the entertainment industry, for example, Nashville will give you better opportunities. (It is hard, though, so you will need to work at it. I worked for an entertainment lawyer 1L summer and part of 2L, and I only got it because I was an asshole about it. I did not take no for an answer. CAA and CMT have posted on our job boards recently, too.) There is also a thriving healthcare industry here and a ton of other interesting externships that people take. Like I said, the two schools are very different and in very different locations, and it is hard to tell from what I've read which is the best match for you. But that doesn't mean you don't know already.

Just as one additional note, we've routinely had people do externships in D.C. It's not unattainable by any means. I don't even know if it's less likely, as fewer people here want it and we have enough connected faculty that they could focus their energy on getting one or two students something up there. This is certainly a benefit of being at such a small school.

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby dukey » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:08 am

Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up

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jenesaislaw
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:19 am

FlanAl wrote:
Marionberry wrote:It's worth remembering two things when looking at GULC's NLJ numbers. First, that the school has a heavy PI/gov focus, and historically sends more people to gov and PI combined than almost any other school. Second, that many of the part-time students stay with the same employers (both business and government) that they have when they begin law school, and don't pursue private legal practice. Now, the extent to which the second occurs I'm not sure about, but these two factors go a long way in explaining the relatively small, but not insignificant, gap in firm placement relative to other schools.


I said this earlier when it was my only option and was told to stop drinking the kool-aid haha. Nah the TLS hate on gtown and its love for Vandy definitely conflict with what I'm hearing from people in the industry. However statistics are hard to argue with and gtown's career service has been really un-helpful in my efforts to try and get a handle on those numbers.


I missed this earlier and I just want to correct what I consider an exaggeration. Using the combined government and PI numbers from 2009, GULC ranks 64th out of 193. If you include clerkships, GULC drops to 67th. I can run the 2007 and 2008 numbers too, if you want, but it's only going to be worse because those were better biglaw years.

It is important, however, to account for the number of graduates who were unknown, not employed, and pursuing graduate degrees. If those percentages are all much higher, and GULC's are not too high, then GULC's combined percentages would be undervalued at those rankings, insofar that this ranking means anything anyhow. It probably just best shows which schools are full of it when they claim to be PI-oriented.

With those adjustments in mind, GULC's rank for Gov't + PI jumps to 49th. If you include clerkships, 53rd. One other important adjustment would be to remove part-time jobs, although that would have to be done carefully since at least some number of part-time jobs are parlayed into full-time jobs. Relatedly, these rankings assume they're all attorney positions, which might not be true. Nobody but NALP - and they haven't released it and won't - has any idea about how that breakdown would shake out. As always, keep in mind that post-graduation outcomes do not necessarily reflect post-graduation opportunities.

Again, I'm not saying these rankings mean much, if anything. But the original quoted post is not right by a long shot.

Finally, the transparency at Vanderbilt is a great characteristic. It's a shame GULC's CSO has been so unhelpful. You should ask GULC's dean, Dean Treanor, to step it up and actually do what he said he would. From the Washington Post:

"Increasing the transparency of employment numbers is something that would be helpful," said Georgetown Law Dean William M. Treanor, who said the school is working with NALP to publish more granular data. "We're also thinking about doing some greater disclosure on our own."
Last edited by jenesaislaw on Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:23 am

dukey wrote:Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up


Ha, it doesn't sum up what you think it sums up.

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:19 am

dukey wrote:Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up


--ImageRemoved--

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Grizz
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:20 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
dukey wrote:Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up


Ha, it doesn't sum up what you think it sums up.


If it sums up that people just vote for the highest USNWR ranked schools in polls without reading the OP, then it sums it up pretty nicely.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:04 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
Marionberry wrote:It's worth remembering two things when looking at GULC's NLJ numbers. First, that the school has a heavy PI/gov focus, and historically sends more people to gov and PI combined than almost any other school. Second, that many of the part-time students stay with the same employers (both business and government) that they have when they begin law school, and don't pursue private legal practice. Now, the extent to which the second occurs I'm not sure about, but these two factors go a long way in explaining the relatively small, but not insignificant, gap in firm placement relative to other schools.


I said this earlier when it was my only option and was told to stop drinking the kool-aid haha. Nah the TLS hate on gtown and its love for Vandy definitely conflict with what I'm hearing from people in the industry. However statistics are hard to argue with and gtown's career service has been really un-helpful in my efforts to try and get a handle on those numbers.


I missed this earlier and I just want to correct what I consider an exaggeration. Using the combined government and PI numbers from 2009, GULC ranks 64th out of 193. If you include clerkships, GULC drops to 67th. I can run the 2007 and 2008 numbers too, if you want, but it's only going to be worse because those were better biglaw years.

It is important, however, to account for the number of graduates who were unknown, not employed, and pursuing graduate degrees. If those percentages are all much higher, and GULC's are not too high, then GULC's combined percentages would be undervalued at those rankings, insofar that this ranking means anything anyhow. It probably just best shows which schools are full of it when they claim to be PI-oriented.

With those adjustments in mind, GULC's rank for Gov't + PI jumps to 49th. If you include clerkships, 53rd. One other important adjustment would be to remove part-time jobs, although that would have to be done carefully since at least some number of part-time jobs are parlayed into full-time jobs. Relatedly, these rankings assume they're all attorney positions, which might not be true. Nobody but NALP - and they haven't released it and won't - has any idea about how that breakdown would shake out. As always, keep in mind that post-graduation outcomes do not necessarily reflect post-graduation opportunities.

Again, I'm not saying these rankings mean much, if anything. But the original quoted post is not right by a long shot.

Finally, the transparency at Vanderbilt is a great characteristic. It's a shame GULC's CSO has been so unhelpful. You should ask the Law School's dean, Dean Treanor, to step it up and actually do what he said he would. From the Washington Post:

"Increasing the transparency of employment numbers is something that would be helpful," said Georgetown Law Dean William M. Treanor, who said the school is working with NALP to publish more granular data. "We're also thinking about doing some greater disclosure on our own."


where exactly are you getting these numbers. i'm definitely not a stats buff but on lst we've got 92% employed but only 68% of that in the private sector. what do the other employed people do if it isn't private sector?

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby dukey » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:15 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
dukey wrote:Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up


Ha, it doesn't sum up what you think it sums up.


You are saying that Vandy has better national prestige? That's definitely not the case.

The question here is simply whether GT's national reach (in the form of CA biglaw) is worth the $57,997. I think it is worth it, just sayin...considering also the DC networking & living.


What I think the poll reflects = natnl reach/prestige
What does the poll reflect under (what I assume is) your opinion? Rankings. But I think rankings are in line with this difference in natnl reach/prestige. So I don't think there's anything inconsistent going on here.
Last edited by dukey on Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby dukey » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:18 am

no offense (honestly!): ITT, Vandy grads defend...Vandy :P

Where did all the GULC folks go?

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jenesaislaw
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:20 am

I used this spreadsheet: --LinkRemoved--

I added two columns. The first column added together the PI + Gov't, and, for the second batch of rankings, then multiplied it by the employed at 9 months rate. The second column did the same with Art III clerkships and Other Clerkships. I then sorted the two columns to rank the sums/products.

The categories are academia (i.e. research assistants or other jobs working for schools, not professors in any but the most extraordinary circumstances), law firms, govt, clerkships, business & industry, public interest, and unknown.

PI and Clerkships are the next two most common at GULC besides Law Firms. It's just not in the proportions (relative to other schools) as Marionberry claimed.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:20 am

I guess you got it from the school's tls profile? It seems like they differentiate between PI and government work on other schools profiles whereas in gtowns it just says PI. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I have a hard time believing that less than 30 kids go into gov/PI when they have a special program for like 60 kids that forces them to do PI/gov work.

I'm not trying to question your math (since I'm super shitty with math) but i'm trying to wrap my head around the numbers your giving me instead of just accepting that gtown is terrible for PI/gov work.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:23 am

unfortunately it won't let me see the spreadsheet

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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby dukey » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:30 am

OP...http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


Seriously...those USNews private sector employment rankings are turd-infested. I mean...You're talking about 44% reporting for GT? and likewise, only 63% for Vandy? Those 9-month ranks don't mean a darn thing.

For clerking & PI disclosure, it gets even worse.

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:36 am

hey thanks I look at this list fairly often. i really wish there was a better way to get a handle on the gov/pi numbers. I'm starting to think that the reason that gtown's lrap is so good is because no one qualifies to use it, haha. (that seriously can't be the case, can it?)

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jenesaislaw
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:38 am

dukey wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:
dukey wrote:Georgetown for better national prestige.

Poll pretty much sums it up


Ha, it doesn't sum up what you think it sums up.


You are saying that Vandy has better national prestige? That's definitely not the case.

The question here is simply whether GT's national reach (in the form of CA biglaw) is worth the $57,997. I think it is worth it, just sayin...considering also the DC networking & living.


What I think the poll reflects = natnl reach/prestige
What does the poll reflect under (what I assume is) your opinion? Rankings. But I think rankings are in line with this difference in natnl reach/prestige. So I don't think there's anything inconsistent going on here.


I decidedly did not say that Vandy has better national prestige. The poll reflects prospectives (and many students) ridiculous obsession with rankings, which, while a decent signpost for various degrees of prestige in legal education, are overvalued for what amounts to relatively minor differences in closely ranked schools. The general T14 concept bears this out in all of its glory. At its base, the group is valued as some indicator of safety, but by doing so makes it seem like GULC is more like Yale than it is Vandy. This is what shapes too many people's warped view that, if you're venturing outside of the T14, you are likely making a bad decision, especially if confronted with a choice that includes a T14 school.

You are right that the appropriate question is whether what GULC offers outweighs what Vandy offers OP, with an emphasis on the OP. It is shocking to me that people so slavishly trust these ridiculous rankings that they think that 60k, assuming all else equal, is not enough to warrant choosing Vandy. It is particularly egregious when you look at the loan payments.

10 years, using an 8% weighted rate:

GULC
Monthly Loan Payment: $2,656.94
Cumulative Payments: $318,832.96

Vandy
Monthly Loan Payment: $1,953.28
Cumulative Payments: $234,393.09

I suspect the marginal utility of that $700/month over 10 years (85k) is much higher than people tend to estimate.

But like I said, it isn't even the case that it's absurd to choose GULC. It could be perfectly reasonable. The prestige difference is just overblown. It should come down to other factors.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby jenesaislaw » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:41 am

FlanAl wrote:I guess you got it from the school's tls profile? It seems like they differentiate between PI and government work on other schools profiles whereas in gtowns it just says PI. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I have a hard time believing that less than 30 kids go into gov/PI when they have a special program for like 60 kids that forces them to do PI/gov work.

I'm not trying to question your math (since I'm super shitty with math) but i'm trying to wrap my head around the numbers your giving me instead of just accepting that gtown is terrible for PI/gov work.


FlanAl wrote:unfortunately it won't let me see the spreadsheet


I don't get anything from the TLS profile. It was all from the spreadsheet, which I collected from U.S. News and is self-reported from law schools.

What do you mean it won't let you see the spreadsheet? Where's the problem occurring? It worked for me (just tried it again).

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:44 am

hey since i can't see the spread sheet (computer has been lame lately) could you just fill me in on what GULC kids that don't work in the private sector but are employed are doing? I don't think the percentages add up with clerkships and pi combined?

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FlanAl
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Re: GULC vs. Vandy for California

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:47 am

i click on the link in this thread which takes me to the blog post. i click on the link there to get to the spread sheet and all i get is an empty window, oh shit i just saw that I downloaded it onto my computer about 8 times. sorry about that.




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