Top Law Schools

alumniguy wrote:

dbshjb wrote:What I really want to find out is that the hiring firms focus more on school rank or class rank within T14 schools.

Hands down class rank. Most biglaw shops go to every T-14 and they are looking for the best students they can get at each of the T-14. Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class because they can't get the top Columbia kids (or at the very least can't count on always getting these kids).

Meerkat Manor wrote:

alumniguy wrote:

dbshjb wrote:What I really want to find out is that the hiring firms focus more on school rank or class rank within T14 schools.

Hands down class rank. Most biglaw shops go to every T-14 and they are looking for the best students they can get at each of the T-14. Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class because they can't get the top Columbia kids (or at the very least can't count on always getting these kids).

By saying that Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class, aren't you contradicting yourself?

Desert Fox wrote:

Meerkat Manor wrote:

alumniguy wrote:

dbshjb wrote:What I really want to find out is that the hiring firms focus more on school rank or class rank within T14 schools.

Hands down class rank. Most biglaw shops go to every T-14 and they are looking for the best students they can get at each of the T-14. Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class because they can't get the top Columbia kids (or at the very least can't count on always getting these kids).

By saying that Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class, aren't you contradicting yourself?

No.

Meerkat Manor wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Meerkat Manor wrote:

alumniguy wrote:
Hands down class rank. Most biglaw shops go to every T-14 and they are looking for the best students they can get at each of the T-14. Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class because they can't get the top Columbia kids (or at the very least can't count on always getting these kids).

By saying that Firm X will go deeper into the Columbia class over the Penn class, aren't you contradicting yourself?

No.

Soo Columbia's school rank provides no advantage in this case even though Firm X will go deeper into the class (to lower grade percentiles) to hire students......

Desert Fox wrote:
The question is which factor was bigger. That doesn't mean the smaller factor is zero. Come on this isn't complicated.

Meerkat Manor wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:
The question is which factor was bigger. That doesn't mean the smaller factor is zero. Come on this isn't complicated.

Okay, okay. No need to get shnippy, Jesus

dbshjb wrote:So, when we choose which school we are going to go, we really have to think more factors, not only just school rank and dollars. We have to think about in which school we could have the best performance. Am I fit in the environment and do I like the school and the atmosphere? We shall ask ourselves such questions.

Again, which factor is more important, school rank or class rank?

Lawlcat wrote:I need to stop posting on 0L topics when I have work to do, but it HURTS ME SO MUCH.

I still have this in my copy/paste:

2007-2010 NLJ 250 + 2007-2009 Article III,
(i.e. % of year's graduating class in BigLaw + % in prestigious federal clerkships that put you in BigLaw or anywhere else you want, averaged)

School Total (all years available)
Chicago 74.1%
Stanford 73.4%
Columbia 72.8%
Penn 71.4%
Harvard 71.1%
Northwestern 67.1%
NYU 65.7%
Duke 64.3%
Cornell 64.3%
Michigan 62.3%
UVA 61.1%
Berkeley 60.8%
Vanderbilt 54.0%
GULC 50.4%
USC 45.2%
UCLA 44.3%

Two things:

(1) Not much difference in placing power until you hit GULC. No matter which set of averages you try, it's about 10-15% decline from tippy-top to "bottom". (Excluding HYS.)

(2) It's not CCN. It's CCP.

But 10-15% difference? Word on the street is that more students at schools like NYU, Berkeley, and Michigan choose PI because that's what they want to do than is the case at "CCP". (Perhaps GULC has similar things going on, e.g. with DC NGOs, or maybe its placement power really is weaker.)

Final note: one point of general agreement in the OCI threads from this past year was that GPA is not at all dispositive. 54% at University of IvyVille get BigLaw does NOT mean that the top 54% of the class (grade-wise) gets BigLaw. It seems to generally mean something like "54% of the class, mostly from the top 70% or so, get BigLaw". Firms are not ranked by USNWR and Vault does not care what their associates' 1L GPAs are. Many a below-median student has rejoiced, and many a high-GPA student has broken down in tears, when they realized The Greatest LSAT Logical Reasoning Question of All.

Desert Fox wrote:

Lawlcat wrote:I need to stop posting on 0L topics when I have work to do, but it HURTS ME SO MUCH.

I still have this in my copy/paste:

2007-2010 NLJ 250 + 2007-2009 Article III,
(i.e. % of year's graduating class in BigLaw + % in prestigious federal clerkships that put you in BigLaw or anywhere else you want, averaged)

School Total (all years available)
Chicago 74.1%
Stanford 73.4%
Columbia 72.8%
Penn 71.4%
Harvard 71.1%
Northwestern 67.1%
NYU 65.7%
Duke 64.3%
Cornell 64.3%
Michigan 62.3%
UVA 61.1%
Berkeley 60.8%
Vanderbilt 54.0%
GULC 50.4%
USC 45.2%
UCLA 44.3%

Two things:

(1) Not much difference in placing power until you hit GULC. No matter which set of averages you try, it's about 10-15% decline from tippy-top to "bottom". (Excluding HYS.)

(2) It's not CCN. It's CCP.

But 10-15% difference? Word on the street is that more students at schools like NYU, Berkeley, and Michigan choose PI because that's what they want to do than is the case at "CCP". (Perhaps GULC has similar things going on, e.g. with DC NGOs, or maybe its placement power really is weaker.)

Final note: one point of general agreement in the OCI threads from this past year was that GPA is not at all dispositive. 54% at University of IvyVille get BigLaw does NOT mean that the top 54% of the class (grade-wise) gets BigLaw. It seems to generally mean something like "54% of the class, mostly from the top 70% or so, get BigLaw". Firms are not ranked by USNWR and Vault does not care what their associates' 1L GPAs are. Many a below-median student has rejoiced, and many a high-GPA student has broken down in tears, when they realized The Greatest LSAT Logical Reasoning Question of All.

Prior to ITE what separated the t14 wasn't getting a big law job or not getting a big law job, it was how good of a big law job you'd get. Damn near everyone at even the lower t14 could get big law. When using NLJ data from the era you should understand that.

Class of 2011 is the first class that getting big law wasn't easy. And you'll see the tiers better. Rumors from that OCI puts it at

% Getting big law 2L SA / Schools
___________________________
90% YS
75-80% HLS
70% CCN
40-60% MVPDNC
>40 Gtown

Magnolia wrote:

dbshjb wrote:So, when we choose which school we are going to go, we really have to think more factors, not only just school rank and dollars. We have to think about in which school we could have the best performance. Am I fit in the environment and do I like the school and the atmosphere? We shall ask ourselves such questions.

Again, which factor is more important, school rank or class rank?

Well, since you can't choose your class rank, I'm pretty sure only one of those two factors should be a consideration when you're choosing a school.

FiveSermon wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Lawlcat wrote:I need to stop posting on 0L topics when I have work to do, but it HURTS ME SO MUCH.

I still have this in my copy/paste:

2007-2010 NLJ 250 + 2007-2009 Article III,
(i.e. % of year's graduating class in BigLaw + % in prestigious federal clerkships that put you in BigLaw or anywhere else you want, averaged)

School Total (all years available)
Chicago 74.1%
Stanford 73.4%
Columbia 72.8%
Penn 71.4%
Harvard 71.1%
Northwestern 67.1%
NYU 65.7%
Duke 64.3%
Cornell 64.3%
Michigan 62.3%
UVA 61.1%
Berkeley 60.8%
Vanderbilt 54.0%
GULC 50.4%
USC 45.2%
UCLA 44.3%

Two things:

(1) Not much difference in placing power until you hit GULC. No matter which set of averages you try, it's about 10-15% decline from tippy-top to "bottom". (Excluding HYS.)

(2) It's not CCN. It's CCP.

But 10-15% difference? Word on the street is that more students at schools like NYU, Berkeley, and Michigan choose PI because that's what they want to do than is the case at "CCP". (Perhaps GULC has similar things going on, e.g. with DC NGOs, or maybe its placement power really is weaker.)

Final note: one point of general agreement in the OCI threads from this past year was that GPA is not at all dispositive. 54% at University of IvyVille get BigLaw does NOT mean that the top 54% of the class (grade-wise) gets BigLaw. It seems to generally mean something like "54% of the class, mostly from the top 70% or so, get BigLaw". Firms are not ranked by USNWR and Vault does not care what their associates' 1L GPAs are. Many a below-median student has rejoiced, and many a high-GPA student has broken down in tears, when they realized The Greatest LSAT Logical Reasoning Question of All.

Prior to ITE what separated the t14 wasn't getting a big law job or not getting a big law job, it was how good of a big law job you'd get. Damn near everyone at even the lower t14 could get big law. When using NLJ data from the era you should understand that.

Class of 2011 is the first class that getting big law wasn't easy. And you'll see the tiers better. Rumors from that OCI puts it at

% Getting big law 2L SA / Schools
___________________________
90% YS
75-80% HLS
70% CCN
40-60% MVPDNC
>40 Gtown

Wouldn't you count 2010 as the first year where getting biglaw wasn't easy? i.e look at dook and gtown at 38%

Desert Fox wrote:

FiveSermon wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

Lawlcat wrote:I need to stop posting on 0L topics when I have work to do, but it HURTS ME SO MUCH.

I still have this in my copy/paste:

2007-2010 NLJ 250 + 2007-2009 Article III,
(i.e. % of year's graduating class in BigLaw + % in prestigious federal clerkships that put you in BigLaw or anywhere else you want, averaged)

School Total (all years available)
Chicago 74.1%
Stanford 73.4%
Columbia 72.8%
Penn 71.4%
Harvard 71.1%
Northwestern 67.1%
NYU 65.7%
Duke 64.3%
Cornell 64.3%
Michigan 62.3%
UVA 61.1%
Berkeley 60.8%
Vanderbilt 54.0%
GULC 50.4%
USC 45.2%
UCLA 44.3%

Two things:

(1) Not much difference in placing power until you hit GULC. No matter which set of averages you try, it's about 10-15% decline from tippy-top to "bottom". (Excluding HYS.)

(2) It's not CCN. It's CCP.

But 10-15% difference? Word on the street is that more students at schools like NYU, Berkeley, and Michigan choose PI because that's what they want to do than is the case at "CCP". (Perhaps GULC has similar things going on, e.g. with DC NGOs, or maybe its placement power really is weaker.)

Final note: one point of general agreement in the OCI threads from this past year was that GPA is not at all dispositive. 54% at University of IvyVille get BigLaw does NOT mean that the top 54% of the class (grade-wise) gets BigLaw. It seems to generally mean something like "54% of the class, mostly from the top 70% or so, get BigLaw". Firms are not ranked by USNWR and Vault does not care what their associates' 1L GPAs are. Many a below-median student has rejoiced, and many a high-GPA student has broken down in tears, when they realized The Greatest LSAT Logical Reasoning Question of All.

Prior to ITE what separated the t14 wasn't getting a big law job or not getting a big law job, it was how good of a big law job you'd get. Damn near everyone at even the lower t14 could get big law. When using NLJ data from the era you should understand that.

Class of 2011 is the first class that getting big law wasn't easy. And you'll see the tiers better. Rumors from that OCI puts it at

% Getting big law 2L SA / Schools
___________________________
90% YS
75-80% HLS
70% CCN
40-60% MVPDNC
>40 Gtown

Wouldn't you count 2010 as the first year where getting biglaw wasn't easy? i.e look at dook and gtown at 38%

Getting a 2L Summer Associate spot was easy as they did OCI before the crash. Getting an offer for full time was harder. You could be top 10% at CCN and your firm in Atlanta no offers the whole summer class, or you could be bottom 20% from Cornell at a firm who offered everyone a job.

So the overall percentages reflect a worsening economy, their relative values are suspect. You can see why comparing 2009 and 2010 data. The crash hit NYC first, and you see that firms heavy in NYC do pretty bad in 2009, but well in 2010. NYC firms no offered Class of 2009 grads, but gave out 90% offers to 2010. The rest of the country didn't start no offering til 2010.


Schools like Duke might have their precentage go up for 2011, but Cornell's will probably drop 20%.

SHarry3666 wrote:Read this: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... esearchers_ for the answer. It is much more important to do well.

FiveSermon wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

FiveSermon wrote:

Desert Fox wrote: Prior to ITE what separated the t14 wasn't getting a big law job or not getting a big law job, it was how good of a big law job you'd get. Damn near everyone at even the lower t14 could get big law. When using NLJ data from the era you should understand that.

Class of 2011 is the first class that getting big law wasn't easy. And you'll see the tiers better. Rumors from that OCI puts it at

% Getting big law 2L SA / Schools
___________________________
90% YS
75-80% HLS
70% CCN
40-60% MVPDNC
>40 Gtown

Wouldn't you count 2010 as the first year where getting biglaw wasn't easy? i.e look at dook and gtown at 38%

Getting a 2L Summer Associate spot was easy as they did OCI before the crash. Getting an offer for full time was harder. You could be top 10% at CCN and your firm in Atlanta no offers the whole summer class, or you could be bottom 20% from Cornell at a firm who offered everyone a job.

So the overall percentages reflect a worsening economy, their relative values are suspect. You can see why comparing 2009 and 2010 data. The crash hit NYC first, and you see that firms heavy in NYC do pretty bad in 2009, but well in 2010. NYC firms no offered Class of 2009 grads, but gave out 90% offers to 2010. The rest of the country didn't start no offering til 2010.


Schools like Duke might have their precentage go up for 2011, but Cornell's will probably drop 20%.

Cornell at 37%? Color me shocked.

Also I'm confused why NYC was hit first, then recovered for 2010, but then it seems from your post that they will be hit again (relatively dramatically also).

FiveSermon wrote:Ok thanks.

Also is 2011 most likely predictive of 2012+2013?

Desert Fox wrote:Rumors from Cornell 2011 OCI was around 40% getting something. Add a few for outside OCI offers, subtract a few no offers, and subtract clerks and 37% is about right.

NYC won't get hit again, Cornell will get hit. C/O 2010 cornell lucked out because they went to firms who didn't no offer. In 2011, they had to compete for those jobs at OCI. All the firms got more selective. They aren't going to take a bottom 20% Cornell student when there are top third Duke students looking for jobs.

bk187 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:Rumors from Cornell 2011 OCI was around 40% getting something. Add a few for outside OCI offers, subtract a few no offers, and subtract clerks and 37% is about right.

NYC won't get hit again, Cornell will get hit. C/O 2010 cornell lucked out because they went to firms who didn't no offer. In 2011, they had to compete for those jobs at OCI. All the firms got more selective. They aren't going to take a bottom 20% Cornell student when there are top third Duke students looking for jobs.

Felt like this should be said in case anybody thought DF was talking out of his ass irt Cornell (or anything else for that matter):

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

bk187 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:Rumors from Cornell 2011 OCI was around 40% getting something. Add a few for outside OCI offers, subtract a few no offers, and subtract clerks and 37% is about right.

NYC won't get hit again, Cornell will get hit. C/O 2010 cornell lucked out because they went to firms who didn't no offer. In 2011, they had to compete for those jobs at OCI. All the firms got more selective. They aren't going to take a bottom 20% Cornell student when there are top third Duke students looking for jobs.

Felt like this should be said in case anybody thought DF was talking out of his ass irt Cornell (or anything else for that matter):

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Patriot1208 wrote:

bk187 wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:Rumors from Cornell 2011 OCI was around 40% getting something. Add a few for outside OCI offers, subtract a few no offers, and subtract clerks and 37% is about right.

NYC won't get hit again, Cornell will get hit. C/O 2010 cornell lucked out because they went to firms who didn't no offer. In 2011, they had to compete for those jobs at OCI. All the firms got more selective. They aren't going to take a bottom 20% Cornell student when there are top third Duke students looking for jobs.

Felt like this should be said in case anybody thought DF was talking out of his ass irt Cornell (or anything else for that matter):

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Tbf, the article explicitly says cornell students say it is missing people and could be as high as 50% of the class