Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school

Columbia (no money)
29
43%
NYU (no money)
3
4%
Duke (50 percent tuition covered by scholarship)
17
25%
Michigan (40 percent tuition covered by scholarship)
18
27%
 
Total votes: 67

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:21 pm

ahduth wrote:
beachbum wrote:
ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.


No trolling, Michigan plays out west. Why would Duke?

Duke isn't too shabby for west coast placement. I obviously have a Michigan fanboy bias (and didn't even apply to Duke), but I do agree that Duke is a respectable choice if OP visits and prefers it to Michigan. I mean, obviously Michigan is like ten bazillion times better/cooler/sicker/more ballin than Dook, but neither one is a bad choice in this situation.

tea_drinker wrote:First off, I do think Michigan is a great school, and sends a lot of its grads, and more than Columbia, to CA.
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269

BUT, my post wasn't intended to compare whether Columbia or Michigan has better CA placements. My post simply says I think Columbia prestige will help. Do I have any hard evidence for my belief? No. Because school placements are biased due to regional preference and self-selection. However, as you mentioned and I don't think anyone can refute that lawyers do think highly of Columbia grads.

So Michigan has an equally/more established California network, you don't really have evidence of superior California placement, but the fact that we can't refute that lawyers think highly of Columbia grads (which nobody would dispute) makes the school worth 100-120k more? Fair enough, I suppose.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:24 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Well, I get the impression that Michigan is apprecibly better for the west coast than Duke based on TLS. Idk how much of a difference it actually is but Michigan does send more people there.


It looks like 63 CA offices did OCI at Duke in 2010 and 85 went to Michigan.

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:24 pm

Let's back up.

What's the goal?

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government.


Kirkwood, how... frugal... will you be if you go to CLS or NYU. Because those are the premium items on the menu right now. Several years of big law will pay off that debt.

firemed
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby firemed » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:28 pm

Michigan or Duke is my vote. If you like the south, Duke. If you like the north, Michigan.

Personal preference is for MI.

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AreJay711
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:28 pm

tea_drinker wrote:The 10% chance difference can be help or hurt someone below or above median, so why not.


It certainly can help but with no debt there is no risk if he misses biglaw and the OP says he is debt adverse. I think 130K for 10% chance is a big bet to make. If they we equal cost there would be no issue. Obviously it is for the OP to decide.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:35 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:The 10% chance difference can be help or hurt someone below or above median, so why not.


It certainly can help but with no debt there is no risk if he misses biglaw and the OP says he is debt adverse. I think 130K for 10% chance is a big bet to make. If they we equal cost there would be no issue. Obviously it is for the OP to decide.


I definitely agree with you. I just don't know how committed OP is to Big law, so I assume he/she is, according to what have been said. Trust me, as for some one like me who doesn't want big law, I'll take Michigan in a heartbeat.

KirkwoodGAO
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby KirkwoodGAO » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:43 pm

ahduth wrote:Let's back up.

What's the goal?

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government.


Kirkwood, how... frugal... will you be if you go to CLS or NYU. Because those are the premium items on the menu right now. Several years of big law will pay off that debt.


I think I'd be as frugal as feasible. I'm not planning to take one of their newer student housing studios for like $1,800/month for sure...

KirkwoodGAO
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby KirkwoodGAO » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:44 pm

beachbum wrote:
ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.


Sorry about the reedits. Bit of a noob.

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:50 pm

KirkwoodGAO wrote:
ahduth wrote:Let's back up.

What's the goal?

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government.


Kirkwood, how... frugal... will you be if you go to CLS or NYU. Because those are the premium items on the menu right now. Several years of big law will pay off that debt.


I think I'd be as frugal as feasible. I'm not planning to take one of their newer student housing studios for like $1,800/month for sure...


Alright. CLS and NYU get you into the best firms. I do not believe the CLS name carries any more weight than the NYU name except with perhaps families born in Asia - if you do not like that, start another thread.

These names will get you to the west coast. Michigan is your second choice. If you're willing to work for several years and be frugal, don't worry about it.

edit: Sorry, half my family's born in Asia, they really think turning down CLS was stupid... no offense intended.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:07 pm

ahduth wrote:Alright. CLS and NYU get you into the best firms. I do not believe the CLS name carries any more weight than the NYU name except with perhaps families born in Asia - if you do not like that, start another thread.

These names will get you to the west coast. Michigan is your second choice. If you're willing to work for several years and be frugal, don't worry about it.

edit: Sorry, half my family's born in Asia, they really think turning down CLS was stupid... no offense intended.


In terms of prestige related to legal hiring they are probably pretty comparable, but Columbia does have substantially more lay prestige than NYU.

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Lawlcat
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby Lawlcat » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:14 pm

beachbum wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.


Why yes, I DO have data for that! (In case anyone wants the full set/any lurking 0Ls want explanation.)

Prompted by the Chicago vs. Penn thread, I decided to try taking the average of placement in (1) BigLaw, proxied by the top 250 firms according to the NLJ (2) prestigious federal clerkships (which lead to BigLaw or whatever else you want). %s are "number of students going to (1) or (2) divided by number of JDs awarded in the corresponding year".

2007-2010 NLJ 250 + 2007-2009 Article III:

School Total (all years available)
Chicago 74.1%
Stanford 73.4%
Columbia 72.8%
Penn 71.4%
Harvard 71.1%
Northwestern 67.1%
NYU 65.7%
Duke 64.3%
Cornell 64.3%
Michigan 62.3%
UVA 61.1%
Berkeley 60.8%
Vanderbilt 54.0%
GULC 50.4%
USC 45.2%
UCLA 44.3%

These schools bounce around year-by-year, but on average, if you start at the "top" school and go down to the bottom of the T13 (excluding GULC), this index has only decreased by maybe 10-15%. I've tried multiple versions of this (e.g. 2007-2009, 2008-2009, most recent three years of each ... ) and it's always about the same. (If you're curious: most schools have about 10% clerkships, outside of HYS.)

Using this average (including all available data-years), Chicago had about 74% of graduates in BigLaw or clerkships while Columbia had about 73%, Duke had about 64%, Michigan had about 62%.

I don't think you should feel compelled to go to any of these schools (or to not go to any of these schools) based on job placement prospects.

Then again ... you say you're debt averse; imagine that you're standing before the Great Temple of OCI and a guardian spirit makes you the following offer:

You may choose either:
(1) to go from a 50% shot at BigLaw to a 60% shot at BigLaw
or
(2) I will give you $100K (more than you'd likely save working BigLaw for a year, given taxes, expenses, and profound existential sadness)
(on the other hand: if you go PI, the $100K might mean less, because you'll LRAP)

(You could argue that NYU means you get neither, but that's perhaps unfair.)

I think this gets even stronger when you consider that the 20-30% of students at these schools not going to BigLaw or clerkships are probably not all starving on the streets. I could definitely believe that there are more diehard PI people (I know some with top GPAs who refused to even do OCI because they didn't want the temptation) at Berkeley, Mich, and NYU than at Columbia, Chicago, or Penn.




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