Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school

Columbia (no money)
29
43%
NYU (no money)
3
4%
Duke (50 percent tuition covered by scholarship)
17
25%
Michigan (40 percent tuition covered by scholarship)
18
27%
 
Total votes: 67

KirkwoodGAO
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Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby KirkwoodGAO » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:27 pm

I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government. Strong, but perhaps irrational fear of debt.

I have enough savings from working the in the private sector to graduate from Duke with minimal debt (almost none), after factoring in the scholarship. At NYU or CLS I'm probably looking at $120k debt, vs. the typical $200k+ for people graduating 100% from loans.

I'd actually like to work on the West Coast, but Berkeley and SLS showed me no love.

I visited CLS and NYU, while I preferred the neighborhood around NYU. CLS seemed like a better overall fit in terms of the classes, programs, and general culture.
Last edited by KirkwoodGAO on Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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beachbum
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools

Postby beachbum » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:28 pm

Based on what? What are you goals and preferences?

Edit: Good ninja-edit, but we're still gonna need more info. Location preference? Existing debt? Debt aversion? Personal fit (if you've visited)?

Edit 2: Given your goals, I would put Columbia over NYU if you're comfortable paying sticker, and Duke over Michigan if you're not. But the student environments and locations (at least between Duke and Michigan) are so different that you're really gonna want to pick based on personal fit.
Last edited by beachbum on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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paratactical
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools

Postby paratactical » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:29 pm

Depends on a lot of things (desired area of practice, career goals, level of debt aversion, etc).

WhirledWorld
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby WhirledWorld » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:36 pm

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Last edited by WhirledWorld on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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paratactical
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby paratactical » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:40 pm

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government. Strong, but perhaps irrational fear of debt.

I'd actually like to work on the West Coast, but Berkeley and SLS showed me no love.

I visited CLS and NYU, while I preferred the neighborhood around NYU. CLS seemed like a better overall fit in terms of the classes, programs, and general culture.

Given this, I'd either bite the bullet and go to CLS and accept several years of biglaw, or I'd go to Mich. But I also 1) have worked with a lot of really exceptional Mich grads and have seen them place well in biglaw and 2) hate Duke.

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beachbum
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby beachbum » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:41 pm

WhirledWorld wrote:Seems pretty obvious. The money that Duke and MI are throwing at you should not be enough to pull you away from a school like Columbia.


I dunno about that. When you account for both the substantial scholarship at Duke/Mich and the considerably higher COL of NYC, you're looking at a nearly six-figure premium for being able to attend Columbia. Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.

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AreJay711
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:02 pm

beachbum wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:Seems pretty obvious. The money that Duke and MI are throwing at you should not be enough to pull you away from a school like Columbia.


I dunno about that. When you account for both the substantial scholarship at Duke/Mich and the considerably higher COL of NYC, you're looking at a nearly six-figure premium for being able to attend Columbia. Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.


Yeah it will be about 250K vs 120K (COA is ~200K at Michigan) different. My COL in Michigan is going to seriosly only be about 11k next year as a summer starter and that includes 4000 in personal expenses. The real difference is the chances at V5 and V10 firms which all things considered isn't worth 130K IMO. I'm sure a frugal person could live significantly below Duke's COL too. I'd say Duke or Michigan (and I voted Michigan just because I'm going there).

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:06 pm

beachbum wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:Seems pretty obvious. The money that Duke and MI are throwing at you should not be enough to pull you away from a school like Columbia.


I dunno about that. When you account for both the substantial scholarship at Duke/Mich and the considerably higher COL of NYC, you're looking at a nearly six-figure premium for being able to attend Columbia. Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.


KirkwoodGAO wrote:I have enough savings from working the in the private sector to graduate from Duke with minimal debt (almost none), after factoring in the scholarship. At NYU or CLS I'm probably looking at $100k debt, vs. the typical $200k+ for people graduating 100% from loans.



I take OP's calculation for granted, and if he only comes out of CLS with 100K+ in debt, CLS is a good choice.

WhirledWorld
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby WhirledWorld » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:11 pm

.
Last edited by WhirledWorld on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:13 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
beachbum wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:Seems pretty obvious. The money that Duke and MI are throwing at you should not be enough to pull you away from a school like Columbia.


I dunno about that. When you account for both the substantial scholarship at Duke/Mich and the considerably higher COL of NYC, you're looking at a nearly six-figure premium for being able to attend Columbia. Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.


KirkwoodGAO wrote:I have enough savings from working the in the private sector to graduate from Duke with minimal debt (almost none), after factoring in the scholarship. At NYU or CLS I'm probably looking at $100k debt, vs. the typical $200k+ for people graduating 100% from loans.



I take OP's calculation for granted, and if he only comes out of CLS with 100K+ in debt, CLS is a good choice.

On the other hand, coming out with no debt more or less puts OP in the same position as having the financial freedom of a Darrow or Mordecai. NYU/CLS are somewhat easier choices for NYC biglaw aspirations with only 100k in debt (even though debt-free would be amazing), but I don't know if the advantage is as significant for California placement. Almost certainly not "100k significant."

WhirledWorld wrote:Given your career aspirations, CLS is a pretty clear winner here. $100k of debt from perhaps the best school for biglaw?

There's no doubt a CLS degree will open doors that a Duke or MI degree will not.

Do tell.

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AreJay711
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:14 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
beachbum wrote:
WhirledWorld wrote:Seems pretty obvious. The money that Duke and MI are throwing at you should not be enough to pull you away from a school like Columbia.


I dunno about that. When you account for both the substantial scholarship at Duke/Mich and the considerably higher COL of NYC, you're looking at a nearly six-figure premium for being able to attend Columbia. Columbia/NYU are superior to Duke/Mich, but I don't think they're THAT much better.


KirkwoodGAO wrote:I have enough savings from working the in the private sector to graduate from Duke with minimal debt (almost none), after factoring in the scholarship. At NYU or CLS I'm probably looking at $100k debt, vs. the typical $200k+ for people graduating 100% from loans.



I take OP's calculation for granted, and if he only comes out of CLS with 100K+ in debt, CLS is a good choice.


Vs Duke with none? I still don't think so. Debt is a relative thing and 100K vs $0 is the same thing as 250K vs 100K from purely financial point of veiw. The only diffenence would be striaght up inability to make payments and there is less overall risk with cash but if dude wants to maximize wealth it seems the right answer is Duke or Michigan.

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:17 pm

Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:28 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:I take OP's calculation for granted, and if he only comes out of CLS with 100K+ in debt, CLS is a good choice.

On the other hand, coming out with no debt more or less puts OP in the same position as having the financial freedom of a Darrow or Mordecai. NYU/CLS are somewhat easier choices for NYC biglaw aspirations with only 100k in debt (even though debt-free would be amazing), but I don't know if the advantage is as significant for California placement. Almost certainly not "100k significant."

First reason is because of what you already mentioned. Second, I do think Columbia prestige will help OP sell him/herself in CA market


AreJay711 wrote:Vs Duke with none? I still don't think so. Debt is a relative thing and 100K vs $0 is the same thing as 250K vs 100K from purely financial point of veiw. The only diffenence would be striaght up inability to make payments and there is less overall risk with cash but if dude wants to maximize wealth it seems the right answer is Duke or Michigan.


OP didn't say he/she wants to profit, OP just said want big law. Therefore, I go with CLS.

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law, and see if I can handle it. If it does not end up suiting me, then I might try to transition to a smaller firm, GC's office, or government.

sarahh
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby sarahh » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:38 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:I take OP's calculation for granted, and if he only comes out of CLS with 100K+ in debt, CLS is a good choice.

On the other hand, coming out with no debt more or less puts OP in the same position as having the financial freedom of a Darrow or Mordecai. NYU/CLS are somewhat easier choices for NYC biglaw aspirations with only 100k in debt (even though debt-free would be amazing), but I don't know if the advantage is as significant for California placement. Almost certainly not "100k significant."

First reason is because of what you already mentioned. Second, I do think Columbia prestige will help OP sell him/herself in CA market

What are you basing this off of? I am not so sure actual lawyers make the same distinctions we do here. A few lawyers have told me they see it as YHS, then the rest of the top ten. I have also talked to a few older ones that still see Michigan as a top-three school. Michigan sends a lot of people to California. I am not sure about Duke.

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AreJay711
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:40 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Vs Duke with none? I still don't think so. Debt is a relative thing and 100K vs $0 is the same thing as 250K vs 100K from purely financial point of veiw. The only diffenence would be striaght up inability to make payments and there is less overall risk with cash but if dude wants to maximize wealth it seems the right answer is Duke or Michigan.


OP didn't say he/she wants to profit, OP just said want big law. Therefore, I go with CLS.



So you recommend paying $1,300 a month (10 year repayment) for at most about 10% better chance at biglaw and likely less when self selection and market choice is accounted for?

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handlesthetruth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby handlesthetruth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:49 pm

KirkwoodGAO wrote:I'd probably like to do several years of big law




AreJay711 wrote:Yeah it will be about 250K vs 120K (COA is ~200K at Michigan) different. My COL in Michigan is going to seriosly only be about 11k next year as a summer starter and that includes 4000 in personal expenses. The real difference is the chances at V5 and V10 firms which all things considered isn't worth 130K IMO. I'm sure a frugal person could live significantly below Duke's COL too. I'd say Duke or Michigan (and I voted Michigan just because I'm going there).


The question is whether or not this 130k is worth a (roughly) 10-15% better chance at BigLaw. It isn't in my opinion. But this is the decision you have to make I think.

I think I take Michigan if I'm you. If not, Columbia.

I wouldn't consider NYU or Duke unless you just really love one of their respective areas that much.

There's not really a bad choice here though i dont think.

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beachbum
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby beachbum » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:06 pm

ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:09 pm

sarahh wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:First reason is because of what you already mentioned. Second, I do think Columbia prestige will help OP sell him/herself in CA market

What are you basing this off of? I am not so sure actual lawyers make the same distinctions we do here. A few lawyers have told me they see it as YHS, then the rest of the top ten. I have also talked to a few older ones that still see Michigan as a top-three school. Michigan sends a lot of people to California. I am not sure about Duke.


First off, I do think Michigan is a great school, and sends a lot of its grads, and more than Columbia, to CA.
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269

BUT, my post wasn't intended to compare whether Columbia or Michigan has better CA placements. My post simply says I think Columbia prestige will help. Do I have any hard evidence for my belief? No. Because school placements are biased due to regional preference and self-selection. However, as you mentioned and I don't think anyone can refute that lawyers do think highly of Columbia grads.

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:11 pm

beachbum wrote:
ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.


No trolling, Michigan plays out west. Why would Duke?

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby ahduth » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:12 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
sarahh wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:First reason is because of what you already mentioned. Second, I do think Columbia prestige will help OP sell him/herself in CA market

What are you basing this off of? I am not so sure actual lawyers make the same distinctions we do here. A few lawyers have told me they see it as YHS, then the rest of the top ten. I have also talked to a few older ones that still see Michigan as a top-three school. Michigan sends a lot of people to California. I am not sure about Duke.


First off, I do think Michigan is a great school, and sends a lot of its grads, and more than Columbia, to CA.
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269
http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/LinkCli ... tabid=2269

BUT, my post wasn't intended to compare whether Columbia or Michigan has better CA placements. My post simply says I think Columbia prestige will help. Do I have any hard evidence for my belief? No. Because school placements are biased due to regional preference and self-selection. However, as you mentioned and I don't think anyone can refute that lawyers do think highly of Columbia grads.


You are one angry individual, aren't you. Calm down, and lets all just discuss this like adults.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:13 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Vs Duke with none? I still don't think so. Debt is a relative thing and 100K vs $0 is the same thing as 250K vs 100K from purely financial point of veiw. The only diffenence would be striaght up inability to make payments and there is less overall risk with cash but if dude wants to maximize wealth it seems the right answer is Duke or Michigan.


OP didn't say he/she wants to profit, OP just said want big law. Therefore, I go with CLS.



So you recommend paying $1,300 a month (10 year repayment) for at most about 10% better chance at biglaw and likely less when self selection and market choice is accounted for?


The 10% chance difference can be help or hurt someone below or above median, so why not. Also, what can I say? I am a prestige whore.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:14 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Vs Duke with none? I still don't think so. Debt is a relative thing and 100K vs $0 is the same thing as 250K vs 100K from purely financial point of veiw. The only diffenence would be striaght up inability to make payments and there is less overall risk with cash but if dude wants to maximize wealth it seems the right answer is Duke or Michigan.


OP didn't say he/she wants to profit, OP just said want big law. Therefore, I go with CLS.



So you recommend paying $1,300 a month (10 year repayment) for at most about 10% better chance at biglaw and likely less when self selection and market choice is accounted for?



The 10% chance difference can be help or hurt someone below or above median, so why not.

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tea_drinker
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby tea_drinker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:15 pm

ahduth wrote:
You are one angry individual, aren't you. Calm down, and lets all just discuss this like adults.


I was born in anger and hatred, mate. :D
Last edited by tea_drinker on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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beachbum
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby beachbum » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:16 pm

ahduth wrote:
beachbum wrote:
ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.


No trolling, Michigan plays out west. Why would Duke?


Why not Duke? It'll get you back to CA, too, and with less debt (unless the OP edited again and I didn't catch it).

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AreJay711
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Re: Choosing among top 14 law schools (CLS, NYU, Duke, MI)

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:20 pm

beachbum wrote:
ahduth wrote:Why is Duke still being mentioned here when they have MI money?


Michigan trolling? I don't understand the problem.

Also, it's ok to make additional posts, OP. The constant editing is making my head spin.


Well, I get the impression that Michigan is apprecibly better for the west coast than Duke based on TLS. Idk how much of a difference it actually is but Michigan does send more people there.




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