UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which would you choose?

UMN
26
57%
William Mitchell ($$)
1
2%
St. Thomas ($$$$)
19
41%
 
Total votes: 46

desrea777
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UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby desrea777 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:50 pm

I know this forum is more geared for the "top" law schools..... but hoping someone can help me out, hopefully a fellow current/future Minnesotan who is familiar with the schools - out of these, which would you choose? I have to deposit at St. Thomas (the one in Minneapolis, not Florida) tomorrow, and I probably will, but if I were to be lucky enough to get into the U of M after that, is it worth wasting the $500 at St. Thomas and paying full-price at the U of M (assuming I don't get offered any scholarship there)? 1 year of U of M would be covered by GI Bill, so that would help.

William Mitchell: 50% scholarship
St. Thomas: Full tuition scholarship
U of M: Waiting to hear back still


Is a full-tuition scholarship at St. Thomas the clear choice over a 50% offer from William Mitchell? St. Thomas is new and has a small alumni base compared to WM, but this year they tied with WM in the rankings (both #135) if that means anything. Thanks!

WhirledWorld
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby WhirledWorld » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:56 pm

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby WhirledWorld » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:59 pm

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alumniguy
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:24 pm

St. Thomas, hands down - even over the U if you get in. Assuming you'll be financing your education with debt, it doesn't make sense to go to the U for only a 25% chance at Minnesota biglaw. If the U placed their students better (a.k.a. more in line with the other schools clustered near them in the rankings), then it would be more of a question. However, as I understand it, MN biglaw will go to the top 5-10% of students at St. Thomas.

Legal salaries in MN just don't warrant taking on a large amount of debt to finance a law degree - were talking starting salaries of what $120k with minimal bonuses (and minimal salary increases). 100k in debt is going to take a while to pay back in MN.

Sandro
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby Sandro » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:37 pm

Umm, if you start at 120k I dont think its going to take a "while" to pay off 100k in debt. Thats 20k for 5 years., roughly ?

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Lawquacious
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:40 pm

I would go either UMN or Mitchell. Mitchell only if you are sure you want to stay in Twin Cities though. With UMN you might still be stuck relatively close by too, but obviously there is a much better chance you would have some expansive options out of the gate from a T25 school.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby Lawquacious » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:47 pm

alumniguy wrote:St. Thomas, hands down - even over the U if you get in.


I disagree that this is at all the clear choice, though I agree it wouldn't necessarily be a bad choice if you are sure you want to stay in Twin Cities. I personally would take WM at half-scholly over St. Thomas at full though, and I'd take UMN at sticker over both of them. St. Thomas is a young law school still trying to prove itself. Although WM is on the border of T2/T3 (T2 last year and now back down), I think v. St. Thomas or Hamline it has a far better rep. and placement power. Not sure how St. Thomas is actually placing right now though- if you can find actual stats or consistent antedotes that it is placing into jobs as well as WM (which of course itself doesn't place particularly well) then perhaps Thomas is the better choice than WM. I still think WM's rep in the Twin Cities is a fair amount stronger though as things stand. And UMN is just a totally different level of quality than those two schools- a WAY better law school. So I think regardless of jobs, if you have the opportunity to go there you should do so, especially if you will be paying in-state tuition.

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minnbills
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby minnbills » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:44 pm

It pains me to say it (I'm a WM fan) but I have yet to hear an attorney or adcomm or whoever with strong knowledge of the market deny that UST is now a peer of WM. There is another thread in the "discuss your lawschool" section where a mnbiglaw attorney talked at length about the market here. I would go find that for extra info.

That said, I know that UST is really conservative. Both undergrad and the LS. If you'll have a problem with that, you might want to think twice- though it would have to be a big problem to warrant the extra debt. But it's food for thought.

I also hear that there's not much of a biglaw market here. While the job prospects at UMN are easily the best, $100+ extra in debt seems hard to swallow given that only a small number of UMN people get those jobs anyways.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby ohnowtf » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:22 pm

Go to St. Thomas.

Sure, the big firms recruit deeper at UMN, but there are not that many SA positions available in the twin cities.

Additionally, St. Thomas has performed better than WM in recent years as far as big law placement goes, and it does equally well placing everywhere else.

I'll give you this caveat, though, everyone at the other 3 schools in the metro wishes that they either got into UMN or got $$$ there. I wish I was at UMN instead of Mitchell, but I sleep peacefully knowing that I will graduate will very little debt.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:58 am

Sandro wrote:Umm, if you start at 120k I dont think its going to take a "while" to pay off 100k in debt. Thats 20k for 5 years., roughly ?


Um, yes it will. You also have to pay taxes and live a life off of your salary. The point I was making was that even if you make MN market salary, you're going to have several years of paying off loans before you even "break even". That is the BEST CASE SCENARIO. What happens if you only can make 75k a year? It's going to take even longer to pay off that debt and break even.

I won't even get into the fact that half of associates don't make it past their 4th year.

On the whole, 0Ls really fail to give debt the due consideration it demands. I fully understand that law school in an investment in your future, but let's not forget that it is an EXPENSIVE investment. If you finance your education on debt (without scholarships), then you need to be prepared to understand how that is going to influence your future decisions. To be graduating with a six-figure education debt is a BIG deal. What about you're other life decisions? Are you going to buy a house? A new car? These will likely also require debt.

Once you start making $120k you think, gee I am doing well for myself. Until you realize that you'll law school debt will likely prohibit you from gaining equity in ANYTHING for the foreseeable future. You're going to have to pay down that debt as soon as possible (7.9% interest rate on the loans compared to what, 2% in a savings account). You're going to want to pay down your law school debt before any mortgage debt (again, the interest rates will probably be higher on your law school debt than a home mortgage). Assuming you graduate at age 25 you're going to be damn near 30 (or more likely approaching 35) before you break even on your law school debt. That is crushing! Look at your parents, what were their lives like at 35? Not a completely exact comparison, but so many students fail to look at how educational debt will impact their lives.

I compare myself to my friends who didn't attend grad school and for the most part, they are all well on their ways to the typical life path - i.e., paying home mortgages, financing car purchases, etc. Do I have a larger salary at the moment? Yes. Am I "worth" more? Not even close. Do I work many more hours than they typically do? Yes.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby geoduck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:39 am

Cool story, bro. Good to know that debt sucks. Think about it this way... Would you rather pay off $100k from a top 20 on a salary of $120k with a Twin Cities COL or pay off $200k from a top 14 on a salary of $160k with a NY COL? The second is the goal of many on this board and would be significantly less comfortable than the first.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby ptrpostma » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:08 am

OP look at the thread from MinnesotaBigLaw11 below

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=146346&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

While waiting for the U of MN to get back to you, I would chose UST or WM, and I myself have done so as well. While UST is a younger school, only ten years old, it does have the alumni base from its undergraduate university. Tommies in Minnesota seem to stay together and help each other out. Becasuse of this alumni network UST has also been able to build an endowment that is larger than either the U of MN or WM in the past few years. This endowment is enabling UST to continue to buy off professors from other higher ranked schools and enrich its own program, as well as enticing in students who have higher GPAs and LSAT scores. Both I am sure will continue to do so in the coming years. Additionaly UST's mentorship program forces students to start networking from the first semester. It also helps that UST is connected to major Minneapolis law firms through the skyway network in downtown Minneapolis especially when it is -10 degrees out in the winter.

alumniguy
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:46 am

geoduck wrote:Cool story, bro. Good to know that debt sucks. Think about it this way... Would you rather pay off $100k from a top 20 on a salary of $120k with a Twin Cities COL or pay off $200k from a top 14 on a salary of $160k with a NY COL? The second is the goal of many on this board and would be significantly less comfortable than the first.


The problem with your scenario is several fold. I'll start with the fact that only about 25% of MN grades get biglaw compared with upwards of 50-60% at T-14s. That alone should make anyone think twice about MN if they are going to law school for the supposed riches that will ensue. Second, 100K in loans for the Midwest market is a pretty high number, especially with the massive salary compression in the MN market compared to major markets. The salary for MN biglaw (at least pre-recession, I've heard it has been lowered but not heard if they've brought it back up to 2007 levels) is as follows: 1: 120k; 2: 122.5k, 3: 125k, 4: 130k and 5 135k. Compare that to major market biglaw as follows: 1: 160k, 2: 170k, 3: 185k, 4: 210k and 5: 230k. So by your fifth year (if you can make it that is), you're pulling in 100k more in base salary and this isn't including bonuses. My point is that 200k in a major market is probably equal to 100k in MN market if we are looking at ability to repay loans.

The vast majority of 0Ls simply FAIL TO UNDERSTAND how crushing debt can be. Don't forget that the above discussion only applies to about 25% of students - and this is the best case scenario. What happens to everyone else? I shudder to think of the decades of debt and sacrifices that our generation of law school student who have massive debt and little to no good job prospects are going to face. It should scare you and if it doesn't you're not being honest (or being ignorant). I am not trying dissuade anyone from attending law school, but a frank and honest discussion of finances and job prospects is in order - especially when someone is faced with full tuition vs. a full scholarship.

The days of just waltzing into a great paying job are pretty much over. Biglaw models are changing - they're hiring less entry level associates. Clients are refusing to pay for junior associates. The days of working your way up to partnership are pretty much over. Rather, most associates are brought in for 3-5 years, worked extremely hard and then either realize this isn't the life for them or are asked to leave for performance reasons. Certainly many go on to good careers where they make a good, not great living. But a significant amount leave the law for good. The point of this is that if you have MASSIVE DEBT, you are pretty much limited to gunning for biglaw and staying in biglaw whether you like it or not. There are so many depressed biglaw lawyers who are there only for the paycheck it is stunning. Yes, it is a job and no one really likes to work. But when it is a job that requires a minimum of 12 hour days every day of the week, it really, really can get to you if you don't like what your doing.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:50 am

St. Thomas if you want to stay in the Twin Cities area, otherwise Minnesota.

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geoduck
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby geoduck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:25 pm

alumniguy wrote:
geoduck wrote:Cool story, bro. Good to know that debt sucks. Think about it this way... Would you rather pay off $100k from a top 20 on a salary of $120k with a Twin Cities COL or pay off $200k from a top 14 on a salary of $160k with a NY COL? The second is the goal of many on this board and would be significantly less comfortable than the first.


The problem with your scenario is several fold. I'll start with the fact that only about 25% of MN grades get biglaw compared with upwards of 50-60% at T-14s. That alone should make anyone think twice about MN if they are going to law school for the supposed riches that will ensue. Second, 100K in loans for the Midwest market is a pretty high number, especially with the massive salary compression in the MN market compared to major markets. The salary for MN biglaw (at least pre-recession, I've heard it has been lowered but not heard if they've brought it back up to 2007 levels) is as follows: 1: 120k; 2: 122.5k, 3: 125k, 4: 130k and 5 135k. Compare that to major market biglaw as follows: 1: 160k, 2: 170k, 3: 185k, 4: 210k and 5: 230k. So by your fifth year (if you can make it that is), you're pulling in 100k more in base salary and this isn't including bonuses. My point is that 200k in a major market is probably equal to 100k in MN market if we are looking at ability to repay loans.

The vast majority of 0Ls simply FAIL TO UNDERSTAND how crushing debt can be. Don't forget that the above discussion only applies to about 25% of students - and this is the best case scenario. What happens to everyone else? I shudder to think of the decades of debt and sacrifices that our generation of law school student who have massive debt and little to no good job prospects are going to face. It should scare you and if it doesn't you're not being honest (or being ignorant). I am not trying dissuade anyone from attending law school, but a frank and honest discussion of finances and job prospects is in order - especially when someone is faced with full tuition vs. a full scholarship.

The days of just waltzing into a great paying job are pretty much over. Biglaw models are changing - they're hiring less entry level associates. Clients are refusing to pay for junior associates. The days of working your way up to partnership are pretty much over. Rather, most associates are brought in for 3-5 years, worked extremely hard and then either realize this isn't the life for them or are asked to leave for performance reasons. Certainly many go on to good careers where they make a good, not great living. But a significant amount leave the law for good. The point of this is that if you have MASSIVE DEBT, you are pretty much limited to gunning for biglaw and staying in biglaw whether you like it or not. There are so many depressed biglaw lawyers who are there only for the paycheck it is stunning. Yes, it is a job and no one really likes to work. But when it is a job that requires a minimum of 12 hour days every day of the week, it really, really can get to you if you don't like what your doing.


On the other hand, 15% of everything you earn about 150% of the poverty level IBR + Public Service Loan Forgiveness + UMN LRAP = win. Otherwise, what you say regarding debt is true, especially if he wants to stay in the Twin Cities (only around 50% of UMN grads stay in the upper Midwest). But UMN is a significantly better school than the other two options and that cannot be totally ignored.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:53 pm

geoduck wrote:On the other hand, 15% of everything you earn about 150% of the poverty level IBR + Public Service Loan Forgiveness + UMN LRAP = win. Otherwise, what you say regarding debt is true, especially if he wants to stay in the Twin Cities (only around 50% of UMN grads stay in the upper Midwest). But UMN is a significantly better school than the other two options and that cannot be totally ignored.


Yea, you 0Ls have it totally figured out. No point in listening to those of us that have been through it all. It's like the blind leading the blind on this website. Have you lived on a salary that is 150% of poverty? I can't imagine it is what most law school student envision their life to be like for the 10 years following their graduation.

A significantly better law school? I don't know that I would go that far, certainly a better law school. You're allowing a magazine that has no real interest in truly evaluating law schools other than by the metrics that they deem important (e.g., total number of volumes in the law library). Law schools are professional schools, they aren't undergraduate institutions. The entire point of obtaining a professional degree is to get a job. The job prospects coming out of ANY Minnesota school are not great. Is MN worth $100k more in debt for the slightly better prospects of finding a job in the Twin Cities? I would say no. Now if OP doesn't want to remain in the Twin Cities (which judging by OP's choices it sounds like s/he does want to remain), then I would probably agree that WM and St. Thomas should NOT be considered. These are heavily local schools, were I would categorize MN as a regional school.

In my opinion MN is riding on its history for the moment. Back BEFORE USNews, MN was a well respected school. The MN courts in general were well regarded for their justices, many of whom attended MN law school. There wasn't such an adherence to the student quality - it was about the law school molding its students. Now, law school rank is pretty much synonymous with the level of students attending the institution. Sure you have outliers, but most MN students are far more qualified, by GPA and LSAT scores than William Mitchell or St. Thomas. I just don't think this was the case 30 years ago. Quality students that missed out on getting into MN went to William Mitchell or Hamline because those were considered to be good schools in the region and if you were looking at MN, then these were the natural second choices. Now, students who don't get into MN are branching out to other schools ranked above William Mitchell or St. Thomas thinking that if I go to X school that is ranked in the 80s, it is better than WM or St. Thomas because those are ranked in the 120s.

You look at what is keeping MN in the upper teens/lower 20s in the ranking and it is undoubtedly their reputation scores. The problem though, is the the current generation of law school students doesn't think of it the same way as the veterans in the field. As "our" generation slowly becomes the veterans, I can assure you that Midwest state schools are going to decline compared to private schools (i.e., BC, BU, Emory, GW, WUSTL, etc.). The student quality is uniformly higher and more of their grads are getting better jobs, which will likely translate in more influential jobs in the future. It is only a matter of time until MN and Iowa fall to the 30s/40s (unless they can start placing their grads better).

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby geoduck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:12 pm

alumniguy wrote:
geoduck wrote:On the other hand, 15% of everything you earn about 150% of the poverty level IBR + Public Service Loan Forgiveness + UMN LRAP = win. Otherwise, what you say regarding debt is true, especially if he wants to stay in the Twin Cities (only around 50% of UMN grads stay in the upper Midwest). But UMN is a significantly better school than the other two options and that cannot be totally ignored.


Yea, you 0Ls have it totally figured out. No point in listening to those of us that have been through it all. It's like the blind leading the blind on this website. Have you lived on a salary that is 150% of poverty? I can't imagine it is what most law school student envision their life to be like for the 10 years following their graduation.

A significantly better law school? I don't know that I would go that far, certainly a better law school. You're allowing a magazine that has no real interest in truly evaluating law schools other than by the metrics that they deem important (e.g., total number of volumes in the law library). Law schools are professional schools, they aren't undergraduate institutions. The entire point of obtaining a professional degree is to get a job. The job prospects coming out of ANY Minnesota school are not great. Is MN worth $100k more in debt for the slightly better prospects of finding a job in the Twin Cities? I would say no. Now if OP doesn't want to remain in the Twin Cities (which judging by OP's choices it sounds like s/he does want to remain), then I would probably agree that WM and St. Thomas should NOT be considered. These are heavily local schools, were I would categorize MN as a regional school.

In my opinion MN is riding on its history for the moment. Back BEFORE USNews, MN was a well respected school. The MN courts in general were well regarded for their justices, many of whom attended MN law school. There wasn't such an adherence to the student quality - it was about the law school molding its students. Now, law school rank is pretty much synonymous with the level of students attending the institution. Sure you have outliers, but most MN students are far more qualified, by GPA and LSAT scores than William Mitchell or St. Thomas. I just don't think this was the case 30 years ago. Quality students that missed out on getting into MN went to William Mitchell or Hamline because those were considered to be good schools in the region and if you were looking at MN, then these were the natural second choices. Now, students who don't get into MN are branching out to other schools ranked above William Mitchell or St. Thomas thinking that if I go to X school that is ranked in the 80s, it is better than WM or St. Thomas because those are ranked in the 120s.

You look at what is keeping MN in the upper teens/lower 20s in the ranking and it is undoubtedly their reputation scores. The problem though, is the the current generation of law school students doesn't think of it the same way as the veterans in the field. As "our" generation slowly becomes the veterans, I can assure you that Midwest state schools are going to decline compared to private schools (i.e., BC, BU, Emory, GW, WUSTL, etc.). The student quality is uniformly higher and more of their grads are getting better jobs, which will likely translate in more influential jobs in the future. It is only a matter of time until MN and Iowa fall to the 30s/40s (unless they can start placing their grads better).


That's great and all. I have actually lived on 150% of the poverty line. But good thing that IBR doesn't require that! IBR allows you to pay nothing if you make 150% of the poverty line or less. Over that, it makes your loan payment equal to 15% of your income beyond 150% of the poverty line.

The rest of your post is almost more indicative of why he shouldn't go to WM or St. Thomas.
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--
Yes, prospects sure do suck for Minnesota schools.

$20 says that we get another novel utilizing tons of personal feeling in response.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:24 pm

Such great prospects indeed - the class of 2008 was THE BOOM YEAR (I know, because that is when I graduated). So let's see here - UMN - a top 20 school - only had 48.4 percent had a salary range reported, compared to 37.2 for St. Thomas. How much do you think these percentages will plummet when '09 and '10 grads are counted? How does MN compare to other similarly ranked schools (I'll give you a hint in that it does much, much worse).

But again, you're a 0L who knows SO MUCH about going to law school and the legal profession. I yield to your incredible knowledge indeed.

Either way MN is likely NOT WORTH 100k more in debt over St. Thomas/William Mitchell on full scholarship. No how, no way even if the majority of 0Ls would disagree.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby geoduck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:30 pm

alumniguy wrote:Such great prospects indeed - the class of 2008 was THE BOOM YEAR (I know, because that is when I graduated). So let's see here - UMN - a top 20 school - only had 48.4 percent had a salary range reported, compared to 37.2 for St. Thomas. How much do you think these percentages will plummet when '09 and '10 grads are counted? How does MN compare to other similarly ranked schools (I'll give you a hint in that it does much, much worse).

But again, you're a 0L who knows SO MUCH about going to law school and the legal profession. I yield to your incredible knowledge indeed.

Either way MN is likely NOT WORTH 100k more in debt over St. Thomas/William Mitchell on full scholarship. No how, no way even if the majority of 0Ls would disagree.


Also, OP wouldn't be dealing with 100k more in debt. That number came out your butt. OP has a year covered thanks to the GI bill.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:39 pm

For Minnesota schools in 2009 for the percent of the class for whom a salary is known*:

Hamline University: 30.85% (19.20% percentile)
Univ. of Minnesota: 47.75% (52.70% percentile)
Univ. of St. Thomas: 49.43% (57.30% percentile)
William Mitchell: 56.13% (74.10% percentile)

* includes those working for law firms, in business & industry, and as Article III clerks, as well as unemployed graduates and graduates who are pursuing a full time degree. This means that the number is not directly comparable to the 2008 known percentage because, in that year, we did not know anything about the percentage of unknown graduates, nor did we know how many were pursuing grad degrees. As with prior years, there is still an assumption embedded that all graduates are employed in FT jobs. This is not a fair assumption, especially for these four schools (though Minnesota grads were almost all in FT jobs).

--LinkRemoved--

I will have this up in the data clearinghouse by this weekend.


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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby alumniguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:33 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:For Minnesota schools in 2009 for the percent of the class for whom a salary is known*:

Hamline University: 30.85% (19.20% percentile)
Univ. of Minnesota: 47.75% (52.70% percentile)
Univ. of St. Thomas: 49.43% (57.30% percentile)
William Mitchell: 56.13% (74.10% percentile)

* includes those working for law firms, in business & industry, and as Article III clerks, as well as unemployed graduates and graduates who are pursuing a full time degree. This means that the number is not directly comparable to the 2008 known percentage because, in that year, we did not know anything about the percentage of unknown graduates, nor did we know how many were pursuing grad degrees. As with prior years, there is still an assumption embedded that all graduates are employed in FT jobs. This is not a fair assumption, especially for these four schools (though Minnesota grads were almost all in FT jobs).

--LinkRemoved--

I will have this up in the data clearinghouse by this weekend.


According to these number, MN is looking significantly better than I anticipated (especially compared to St. Thomas).

Nevertheless, MN has a 42% known salary for private sector + clerkship - which means (if I am reading this information correctly) that close to 60% of the class is NOT represented by the salary statistics that MN puts out. St. Thomas is at 39% known salary for private sector + clerkship - which means that close to 60% of the class is NOT represented by these statistics either. I think we all can agree that few if any students in the unrepresented salary percentiles are pulling in the big bucks (possible, but if so the career officers at these schools should be fired) and are more likely to be on the lower end of the salary scale. MN does have much higher known salary figures (MN: 25th $101,250, Median $120,000, 75th $160,000 compared to ST: 25th $45,000, Median $52,750, 75th $96,250).

However, the statistics confirm that only about 1/3 of the MN class has good job prospects. This is why I don't think MN is worth the extra debt. And paying sticker for those prospects is risky (even if it is only 2 years of sticker). If we assume OP has to financed 100k for a MN degree, that will most likely force her/him into the highest paying job he can get simply to service the debt. On the other hand, OP could attend St. Thomas for about 40k in debt - certainly no small number, but significantly less than 100k. Will her/his job prospects be the same, certainly not. Would I recommend EVER going to St. Thomas without a full ride, probably not (it is barely worth it at full tuition). I just don't see 60k worth of added value at MN. If OP is will to throw the dice, then it is very possible that s/he could come out ahead. But it is exactly that, a roll of the dice.

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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby jenesaislaw » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:56 pm

OP, are your WM and St. Thomas scholarships contingent on your GPA? Or is it only a matter of maintaining good standing? I don't think you can assess your question without knowing the expected value of your scholarships and estimating your total cost of attendance at each over three years.

Even then there frankly isn't that much great information available. But there's some stuff you can use. On a related note, what do you want to do with your degree, both immediately after graduation and beyond?

Meerkat Manor
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Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby Meerkat Manor » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:17 am

One year paid from GI Bill? Go to the U, for real. And pray you get in

youngbuck
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:08 pm

Re: UMN vs. William Mitchell ($$) vs. St. Thomas ($$$$)

Postby youngbuck » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:01 pm

alumniguy wrote:However, the statistics confirm that only about 1/3 of the MN class has good job prospects. This is why I don't think MN is worth the extra debt. And paying sticker for those prospects is risky (even if it is only 2 years of sticker). If we assume OP has to financed 100k for a MN degree, that will most likely force her/him into the highest paying job he can get simply to service the debt. On the other hand, OP could attend St. Thomas for about 40k in debt - certainly no small number, but significantly less than 100k. Will her/his job prospects be the same, certainly not. Would I recommend EVER going to St. Thomas without a full ride, probably not (it is barely worth it at full tuition). I just don't see 60k worth of added value at MN. If OP is will to throw the dice, then it is very possible that s/he could come out ahead. But it is exactly that, a roll of the dice.


Here's what I would like to know. Let's say that I get a biglaw job in MN. Then after 2, 3, or 4 years I want to move (to the west coast, east coast, DC, whatever). Does it matter what school I went to, or only how I did as an associate at the law firm. If the law school I went to matters, then it seems to me that there is a tremendous difference between a school like UMN and St Thomas when leaving the midwest.




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