Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:43 pm

glewz wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
glewz wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:Everyone keeps talking about Chicago's superior "higher level" clerkship placement. Can anyone share this data? I mean, it's one thing if we're talking about SCOTUS clerks - I think Penn students will concede that Chicago has an advantage there. But do we have any actual data that shows Chicago's superiority in COA placement, relative to Penn?

I guess what I'm asking is this: For the average student heading to Penn or Chicago who only wants an Article III clerkship (I say "only" rather tongue-in-cheek, because I think very few 0Ls realize just how difficult even district court clerkships are be to obtain - 3 out of every 4 of your future classmates won't be competitive for them), is there anything that I haven't seen circulating on TLS besides the SCOTUS numbers or Chicago's "4-6 USNews ranking" that is leading people to insist that Chicago is superior?

If this is all based on the SCOTUS numbers, that's fine - we should just say so then, instead of trying to pretend like SCOTUS clerkships measure COA placement any better than regular old Article III placement. If it is not, can anyone share this data? I'm specifically asking those who have stated that in this thread - Glewz and Younger Abstention.


The difference in statistics for CoA is negligible - SCOTUS is a different matter as you've mentioned, in which Chi is likely > Penn.

Edit: Though if all else were equal and my goals were CoA, I'd choose Chi

Yes, I've recognized that Chicago > Penn for SCOTUS placement. But where are you getting the COA stats comparison?


You can find this online @ USNews or some other authority. Here's a TLS article for 2009 stats. All you need to do is google clerkship statistics...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

Yes, I see that, but those stats don't seem to suggest that Chicago has a "higher level" Article III clerkship placement advantage. To the contrary, Penn is slightly ahead of Chicago that year.

I suppose I'm being deliberately dense in an attempt to figure out why you're suggesting that Chicago is the go-to school for clerkships. I am actually well aware of the clerkship data; in fact, I'd already put together these stats for the past three years (already including the link you just posted, which is actually from several years ago, here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149333&p=4122116&hilit=clerkship#p4122116), and this data certainly doesn't suggest any advantage for Chicago. So, naturally, this makes me wonder why people on TLS suggest that Chicago is the school to go to: is it because of superior SCOTUS placement, is it because of it's "4-6 ranking", or is it because of some other data source that I haven't seen? The general Article III stats certainly don't demonstrate any advantage, and in my linked post I actually questioned whether this would actually break TLS' incessant repetition of "CCN >> MVPBD for Article III clerkships." If you look at that very thread I linked, everyone instantly suggests that Columbia is the right call for clerkship prospects over several schools that repeatedly place as well or better - I can only wonder why that might be the case.

So, long story short, that's why I'm asking if you have any COA-specific data, if it's because of the general SCOTUS trends, or if it's because of the USNews "4-6 ranking" that you alluded to earlier.

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glewz
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby glewz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:53 pm

glewz wrote:The difference in statistics for CoA is negligible - SCOTUS is a different matter as you've mentioned, in which Chi is likely > Penn.

Edit: Though if all else were equal and my goals were CoA, I'd choose Chi


Read that first sentence k - I fully acknowledge what you are saying.

And to comment on that point on Columbia for CoA, it's my belief that the stats aren't fully reflective of a difference in age-old prestige.
Last edited by glewz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:04 pm

glewz wrote:
glewz wrote:The difference in statistics for CoA is negligible - SCOTUS is a different matter as you've mentioned, in which Chi is likely > Penn.

Edit: Though if all else were equal and my goals were CoA, I'd choose Chi


FlightoftheEarls wrote:So, long story short, that's why I'm asking if you have any COA-specific data, if it's because of the general SCOTUS trends, or if it's because of the USNews "4-6 ranking" that you alluded to earlier.

Woah, ninja edit. Ok, hold on.

Edit:
Can you explain what you mean about the stats not reflecting the age-old prestige? The stats are what they are, and they already have accounted for the prestige of the relative schools, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. Unless, of course, by age-old prestige you're referring to your "4-6 ranking" comment.

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glewz
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby glewz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:29 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
glewz wrote:
glewz wrote:The difference in statistics for CoA is negligible - SCOTUS is a different matter as you've mentioned, in which Chi is likely > Penn.

Edit: Though if all else were equal and my goals were CoA, I'd choose Chi


FlightoftheEarls wrote:So, long story short, that's why I'm asking if you have any COA-specific data, if it's because of the general SCOTUS trends, or if it's because of the USNews "4-6 ranking" that you alluded to earlier.

Woah, ninja edit. Ok, hold on.

Edit:
Can you explain what you mean about the stats not reflecting the age-old prestige? The stats are what they are, and they already have accounted for the prestige of the relative schools, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. Unless, of course, by age-old prestige you're referring to your "4-6 ranking" comment.


You're too fast for me man! I edited like 30 seconds later.

Is focusing on a consistent historic 4-6 ranking illegitimate to you? It isn't to me because I think that people who graduated 10 years back actually care about their pedigree.

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glewz
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby glewz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:38 pm

Those who are able to get CoA at any nonT3 school are probably incredible students who would succeed at any location, but if I were considering a school (and my intention were to pursue CoA), I'd still attend CCN over nonT6 because they have better career options in other areas.

Choosing a law school is as much about backup plans as it is about one's direct career goals.

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Sentry
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Sentry » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:44 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to live in HP. I talked to multiple 1Ls at ASW who lived on the north side and none of them had any problems with their commute. I'm probably going to be living in lakeview rather than in HP.

deathviaboredom
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby deathviaboredom » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:50 pm

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Last edited by deathviaboredom on Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sentry
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Sentry » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:56 pm

deathviaboredom wrote:
Sentry wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to live in HP. I talked to multiple 1Ls at ASW who lived on the north side and none of them had any problems with their commute. I'm probably going to be living in lakeview rather than in HP.


Really? If I went, I'd want to live there at least in 2L and 3L. Will you drive? (I don't drive)

I'll be taking the bus/train. It looks to be about an hour commute each way by mass transit.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:56 pm

glewz wrote:Is focusing on a consistent historic 4-6 ranking illegitimate to you? It isn't to me because I think that people who graduated 10 years back actually care about their pedigree.

Ok, so now we're getting to the meat of it. If you want my honest answer to your first post, then here: Yes, it's illegitimate. First, I think it's illegitimate because, quite simply, the data just doesn't bear out the claim that Chicago gives you an advantage over Penn for Article III placement. Any self-selection argument at either school is going to be largely null. In fact, it would probably favor Penn since Chicago has a reputation of bringing in students who want to pursue academia/clerkships, and as a result I would wager that more people with dreams of federal clerkships choose Chicago over Penn for that very purpose. If you were going to find that either school is harmed by self-selecting out of clerkships more than the other, Penn is probably the school harmed by the lesser interest.

Second, and although this may seem to be a similar point, I think it's very important: The clerkship hiring data you're looking at has already internalized the reputations of the above schools. As I posted in another thread when people were talking about USC's strong LA placement because of the "Trojan network", it's not as though USC places XYZ% into LA NLJ firms (as recorded in the NLJ stats) plus whatever percentage is helped by the alumni network into LA NLJ firms. The figure that you're looking at already incorporates the hires that result from the reputational benefits of the school. I don't believe this situation is any different. The value of the Chicago name is immense, but it's not as if the school's highly clerkship-geared student body would suddenly start placing better simply because they begin relying on Chicago's reputation. Rather, this factor is already internalized in the school's ~10% average. None of this is to say that Penn is actually better for clerkships simply because it's Article III average is a miniscule 1% higher, but it does suggest that Chicago's purported dominance in Article III placement stems entirely from the school's perceived rankings, rather than the empirical metrics. To the contrary, and as explained in my first point above, these metrics soundly reject that conclusion (unless, of course, you only mean SCOTUS hires).

glewz wrote:Those who are able to get CoA at any nonT3 school are probably incredible students who would succeed at any location, but if I were considering a school (and my intention were to pursue CoA), I'd still attend CCN over nonT6 because they have better career options in other areas.

Choosing a law school is as much about backup plans as it is about one's direct career goals.

I don't disagree, but that argument is a red herring. We're talking about Chicago's superior clerkship placement here.

deathviaboredom
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby deathviaboredom » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:05 pm

Sentry wrote:
deathviaboredom wrote:
Sentry wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to live in HP. I talked to multiple 1Ls at ASW who lived on the north side and none of them had any problems with their commute. I'm probably going to be living in lakeview rather than in HP.


Really? If I went, I'd want to live there at least in 2L and 3L. Will you drive? (I don't drive)

I'll be taking the bus/train. It looks to be about an hour commute each way by mass transit.


you don't feel like you'd miss out on the l school culture?

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Emma.
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Emma. » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:05 pm

deathviaboredom wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:
bk1 wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:Go to Penn. I didn't even check out Chicago for some of the reasons that OP mentioned, but I do know that Penn had some really great people at the ASW. Going to #7 over #5 because you feel more comfortable there is far from crazy!


While I agree with the premise that Penn and Chi aren't that different, we both know there are times where going to a school 2 spots higher makes an enormous difference (e.g. WUSTL and Vandy).


Agreed. Fortunately for the OP, this is not one of those times.


<3 posner <3
<3 law and econ <3
</3 depression </3
</3 lack of social life </3
who says I'll make friends at penn?


I'm pretty sure you are creating a false dichotomy as far as the social life thing. Also, Hyde Park is pretty mediocre but it is only one year.

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Sentry
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Sentry » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:19 pm

deathviaboredom wrote:
you don't feel like you'd miss out on the l school culture?

I'll still be at the LS building for 8-9 hrs a day. I'm looking forward to being able to get away from the LS culture when I get home.

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Emma.
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Emma. » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:21 pm

Sentry wrote:
deathviaboredom wrote:
you don't feel like you'd miss out on the l school culture?

I'll still be at the LS building for 8-9 10-14 hrs a day. I'm looking forward to being able to get away from the LS culture when I get home.


FTFY :?

deathviaboredom
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby deathviaboredom » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:31 pm

Emma. wrote:
Sentry wrote:
deathviaboredom wrote:
you don't feel like you'd miss out on the l school culture?

I'll still be at the LS building for 8-9 10-14 hrs a day. I'm looking forward to being able to get away from the LS culture when I get home.


FTFY :?


y lakeview? do you know anyone ther?

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Dany
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Dany » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:32 pm

I vote Penn.

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Sentry
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Sentry » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:33 pm

No, but I've spent time there and it's a fun neighborhood that's close to everything and is pretty affordable.


Dany wrote:I vote Penn.

I'm sick of your anti-Chicago trolling!

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Muenchen
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Muenchen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Dany wrote:I vote Penn.


I have my reasons...

deathviaboredom
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby deathviaboredom » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:40 pm

Muenchen wrote:
Dany wrote:I vote Penn.


I have my reasons...


gee, thanks. :/

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Xifeng
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Xifeng » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:45 pm

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Last edited by Xifeng on Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Muenchen
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Muenchen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:46 pm

Xifeng wrote:I don't know, I just get the impression from your posts in this thread and the other one that you're trying to get people to convince you to go to Chicago whereas you seem to prefer Penn in general. And I think that the response you're getting is that it's perfectly okay to go to Penn, especially if you'd be happy there. Either way you'll be fine, and you'll feel better once you decide.


Ding ding ding!

stripedbanana10
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby stripedbanana10 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:58 pm

Muenchen wrote:
Xifeng wrote:I don't know, I just get the impression from your posts in this thread and the other one that you're trying to get people to convince you to go to Chicago whereas you seem to prefer Penn in general. And I think that the response you're getting is that it's perfectly okay to go to Penn, especially if you'd be happy there. Either way you'll be fine, and you'll feel better once you decide.


Ding ding ding!


I hear ya, Munich, but I keep vacillating. I'm just hoping someone will post something I haven't thought of, or something that tips the scales in one direction or the other. I move from PENN to CHI moods multiple times within one day (and take out my indecision on TLS boards, clearly)

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Muenchen
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Muenchen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:01 pm

stripedbanana10 wrote:
Muenchen wrote:
Xifeng wrote:I don't know, I just get the impression from your posts in this thread and the other one that you're trying to get people to convince you to go to Chicago whereas you seem to prefer Penn in general. And I think that the response you're getting is that it's perfectly okay to go to Penn, especially if you'd be happy there. Either way you'll be fine, and you'll feel better once you decide.


Ding ding ding!


I hear ya, Munich, but I keep vacillating. I'm just hoping someone will post something I haven't thought of, or something that tips the scales in one direction or the other. I move from PENN to CHI moods multiple times within one day (and take out my indecision on TLS boards, clearly)


I'm confused. Is this an alt of OP or a different person?

die Zauberflote
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby die Zauberflote » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:02 pm

This doesn't answer your exact question, and my season is not completely over yet, but I'll probably be choosing Michigan over Chicago. The people (not the weather) in Michigan seemed warm. I wouldn't mind having a beer with nearly every student, prospective student, faculty member, or staff member that I met at ASW. None of the prospective students seemed insecure, gunnerish, or showy. On my way back home all I could think was: Wow, I would really like to be surrounded by those people for three years.

My visit to to Chicago (with the exception of very pleasant 2L and a nice librarian I spoke with) was the exact opposite. The people in admissions, frankly, didn't give two shits that I had driven 10+ hours to visit campus. They gave me a map and an iPod with a recording on it and shooed me away. Also, the campus's terrible location didn't serve to boost my opinion of the school. Chicago was my first choice until I visited.

So, to answer your original question, as long as you're not turning down YHS, and as long as you're still choosing a top-10-ish school, I'd go to the school you prefer, not the school that some absurd, easily manipulable ranking system indicates is marginally "better."

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Dany
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Dany » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:02 pm

Did someone forget to log out of her alt account?

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Sentry
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Re: Anyone choose Penn over Chi?

Postby Sentry » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:02 pm

Muenchen wrote:
stripedbanana10 wrote:
Muenchen wrote:
Xifeng wrote:I don't know, I just get the impression from your posts in this thread and the other one that you're trying to get people to convince you to go to Chicago whereas you seem to prefer Penn in general. And I think that the response you're getting is that it's perfectly okay to go to Penn, especially if you'd be happy there. Either way you'll be fine, and you'll feel better once you decide.


Ding ding ding!


I hear ya, Munich, but I keep vacillating. I'm just hoping someone will post something I haven't thought of, or something that tips the scales in one direction or the other. I move from PENN to CHI moods multiple times within one day (and take out my indecision on TLS boards, clearly)


I'm confused. Is this an alt of OP or a different person?

Then who was phone!?!?!?




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