Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which School for Boushi

Chicago (69k)
32
32%
UVA (142K)
45
45%
NU (150k)
22
22%
 
Total votes: 99

boushi
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:06 am

Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:53 pm

Ok, so it’s come down to this:

Me:
I think I would like to take a route that first goes into government or consulting (in a capacity related to East Asia) and then eventually move into splitting my time between an academia position at university located in Korea or Japan and a consulting role or 'of counsel' position in the same location (I have proficiency in two languages in that area, as well as some solid work experience there and in the US). I could also see myself doing biglaw for both the experience and money before government, academia, or consulting. There is also an outside shot that I could be drawn into the JAG corps, but I need to learn more about that option first.

In general I guess my concerns are as follows: (1) Placement and career trajectory in East Asia; (2) Debt; (3) Environment/Fit/Etc.; (4) Other factors.

The timeline here is also important since I have to accept Northwestern or Chicago by this Friday if I want their financial aid packages; however, I am still held by Columbia and Harvard and interested in hearing from them as well.

The Schools:

Chicago: $69,000 in grants + [EDIT: I was mistaken about the research position originally -- it's this summer, not a 1L thing] research position this summer that I could do from anywhere in the world in collaboration with a top professor whom I deeply admire (though I’m honestly not sure about how hard such things are to get, or even if its something I necessarily want to do instead of working for the government, a judge, or a firm).

Pros: Better placement into Asia and academia. Feel like I like the ethos (though I couldn’t visit). Strongest reputation all around.

Cons: Hyde Park isn’t high on the list of places I want to live. It would leave me with around $145k in loans. [EDIT: I was wrong about having to withdraw from Harvard's hold list--clarified with admissions today]. Have to decide by Friday.

UVA: Full ride (~$142,500, will cover increases in tuition)

Pros: I have an interest in the JAG school. I’ve felt very comfortable talking to UVA students and faculty and feel like I could be happy there. Seemingly good government placement. [EDIT: withdrawing from H no longer a factor for or against UVA]

Cons: Really worried about placement into international jobs from UVA; their website shows one guy going to East Asia in the last three years or something like that. They also lack a name brand value in Asia, which, like it or not, is very important for networking here. Charlottesville would also be very difficult for my SO, though we've agreed that can't be dispositive of my choice.

Northwestern: $150,000 in grants

Pros: I like the coordination with the business school and the professional vibe of the place. The location is also very nice. I would probably consider going for the JD/MBA after 1L if I attended.

Cons: Weakest placement and reputation of the three. I feel like it would probably only be worth it over UVA if I was dead set on the JD/MBA, but I don’t even know if I could get into the MBA program given my unorthodox background. Have to decide by Friday.

So, what say you, 'o hoary sages of TLS?
Last edited by boushi on Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:14 pm

No one with similar options or experiences has any advice on this one? I'd really appreciate any food for thought I can scrounge up...

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shortporch
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby shortporch » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:55 am

You want to enter Asian academia? Asian legal academia? Maybe I don't understand your post.

boushi
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:06 am

Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:40 am

shortporch wrote:You want to enter Asian academia? Asian legal academia? Maybe I don't understand your post.


Sorry, I wrote that after being up all night trading emails in the hopes of finalizing my financial aid offers. To clarify, one position I see myself potentially very happy in would be to split my time between working at a university in Asia (think Yonsei, SNU, U of Tokyo, Keio, etc.) and doing consulting work or being of counsel at a major firm. These types of arrangements, while not terribly common overall, aren't uncommon for professors of all stripes at the higher end schools in Japan and Korea. Other alternative routes would be to work for a gov't agency or even the military (preferably in in a capacity related to those areas) and then transitioning to that type of academic position. I realize there are lots of routes to that type of position and none of them is a sure thing (then again, as a 0L, it is hard to say exactly where my studies and connections will take me anyway). But I suppose using that type of career as a goal is as about as solid of a metric as I can have going into this decision.

Roughly I see it as:

Scenario 1:
Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 2:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 3:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
OR
Gov't Agency/Military -> *Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting

*I know many people lateral to Asian biglaw offices from NY or LA offices, and I'd be open to that route as well.

I will try to edit the OP to better reflect this.

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Verity
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Verity » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:47 am

boushi wrote:
shortporch wrote:You want to enter Asian academia? Asian legal academia? Maybe I don't understand your post.


Sorry, I wrote that after being up all night trading emails in the hopes of finalizing my financial aid offers. To clarify, one position I see myself potentially very happy in would be to split my time between working at a university in Asia (think Yonsei, SNU, U of Tokyo, Keio, etc.) and doing consulting work or being of counsel at a major firm. These types of arrangements, while not terribly common overall, aren't uncommon for professors of all stripes at the higher end schools in Japan and Korea. Other alternative routes would be to work for a gov't agency or even the military (preferably in in a capacity related to those areas) and then transitioning to that type of academic position. I realize there are lots of routes to that type of position and none of them is a sure thing (then again, as a 0L, it is hard to say exactly where my studies and connections will take me anyway). But I suppose using that type of career as a goal is as about as solid of a metric as I can have going into this decision.

Roughly I see it as:

Scenario 1:
Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 2:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 3:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
OR
Gov't Agency/Military -> *Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting

*I know many people lateral to Asian biglaw offices from NY or LA offices, and I'd be open to that route as well.

I will try to edit the OP to better reflect this.


Wait for Harvard. If that doesn't work out, deign to accept Chicago.

Bumi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Bumi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:50 am

I still don't understand. Do Asian professors come from American law schools? If you want to consult in Asia, shouldn't you get an MBA in Asia? If you want to do academia, shouldn't you get a PhD in Asia? How does an American law degree help you if you don't want to be a lawyer?

boushi
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:06 am

Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:07 am

Bumi wrote:I still don't understand. Do Asian professors come from American law schools? If you want to consult in Asia, shouldn't you get an MBA in Asia? If you want to do academia, shouldn't you get a PhD in Asia? How does an American law degree help you if you don't want to be a lawyer?


The same way that US law firms keep offices packed with attorneys in East Asia, there are quite a few jobs at top Asian universities for law profs with a US legal education; it's an area that top students want to study there as well. There are also plenty of opportunities for comparative legal studies and such regarding complex regulations and such. For example, companies are constantly benchmarking their financial regulations and tax schemes against one another, and it takes a lot of expertise to really predict the impact that trade agreements will have on certain industries and such (status of force agreements also deal with complicated legal issues for both countries). Moreover, if someone has relevant governmental (read: regulatory) or biglaw experience, there is a lot of opportunity to do consulting work with in-house counsel at major Asian companies. Though such companies of course rely heavily on biglaw in the US and in those firms' respective offices in places like Hong Kong and Tokyo, the costs involved in retaining an entire firm and all its overhead for day-to-day advising and such often leave a pretty big opening for locally based academics and such to provide advisement and such on a contingency basis. The "consulting" (which I know is a broad term that invokes MBAs) in this sense would involve looking at regulatory, trade, or military issues that stem from the US and helping companies develop appropriate strategies for dealing with pertinent changes and such.

I've already done very similar consulting work, though the lack of a legal degree prevents me from entering into the academic side, charging a premium, and truly passing on a work product as actionable legal advice.

EDIT: Everytime I used "and such" in the above is attributable to an hour of lost sleep in the past few days due to negotiating aid and talking to schools across time zones :/ Thanks to everyone for offering advice despite my horrid writing.

boushi
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:06 am

Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:22 am

Verity wrote:
boushi wrote:
shortporch wrote:You want to enter Asian academia? Asian legal academia? Maybe I don't understand your post.


Sorry, I wrote that after being up all night trading emails in the hopes of finalizing my financial aid offers. To clarify, one position I see myself potentially very happy in would be to split my time between working at a university in Asia (think Yonsei, SNU, U of Tokyo, Keio, etc.) and doing consulting work or being of counsel at a major firm. These types of arrangements, while not terribly common overall, aren't uncommon for professors of all stripes at the higher end schools in Japan and Korea. Other alternative routes would be to work for a gov't agency or even the military (preferably in in a capacity related to those areas) and then transitioning to that type of academic position. I realize there are lots of routes to that type of position and none of them is a sure thing (then again, as a 0L, it is hard to say exactly where my studies and connections will take me anyway). But I suppose using that type of career as a goal is as about as solid of a metric as I can have going into this decision.

Roughly I see it as:

Scenario 1:
Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 2:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 3:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
OR
Gov't Agency/Military -> *Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting

*I know many people lateral to Asian biglaw offices from NY or LA offices, and I'd be open to that route as well.

I will try to edit the OP to better reflect this.


Wait for Harvard. If that doesn't work out, deign to accept Chicago.


Well, one of the problems is that Chicago's aid is contingent on withdrawing from all schools you have not heard from. (If I was already wait-listed at Harvard, I would be allowed to ride that wait list.) Honestly, I don't personally care much for prestige and would probably take Chicago over Harvard if the money was right at Chicago. I just don't feel like Chicago has given me aid commensurate to my UVA scholarship (perhaps because Chicago knows I wasn't accepted to Harvard) and I'm a bit reluctant to take that amount without even seeing the potential outcome at Harvard, which could potentially be in the same ballpark as Chicago's offer. Of course, I honestly consider H a very long shot at this point and don't think that it should necessarily cloud to any great extent the more practical comparison between UVA at fullride versus Chicago on a half tuition scholarship.

Bumi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Bumi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:57 pm

boushi wrote:
Bumi wrote:I still don't understand. Do Asian professors come from American law schools? If you want to consult in Asia, shouldn't you get an MBA in Asia? If you want to do academia, shouldn't you get a PhD in Asia? How does an American law degree help you if you don't want to be a lawyer?


The same way that US law firms keep offices packed with attorneys in East Asia, there are quite a few jobs at top Asian universities for law profs with a US legal education; it's an area that top students want to study there as well. There are also plenty of opportunities for comparative legal studies and such regarding complex regulations and such. For example, companies are constantly benchmarking their financial regulations and tax schemes against one another, and it takes a lot of expertise to really predict the impact that trade agreements will have on certain industries and such (status of force agreements also deal with complicated legal issues for both countries). Moreover, if someone has relevant governmental (read: regulatory) or biglaw experience, there is a lot of opportunity to do consulting work with in-house counsel at major Asian companies. Though such companies of course rely heavily on biglaw in the US and in those firms' respective offices in places like Hong Kong and Tokyo, the costs involved in retaining an entire firm and all its overhead for day-to-day advising and such often leave a pretty big opening for locally based academics and such to provide advisement and such on a contingency basis. The "consulting" (which I know is a broad term that invokes MBAs) in this sense would involve looking at regulatory, trade, or military issues that stem from the US and helping companies develop appropriate strategies for dealing with pertinent changes and such.

I've already done very similar consulting work, though the lack of a legal degree prevents me from entering into the academic side, charging a premium, and truly passing on a work product as actionable legal advice.

EDIT: Everytime I used "and such" in the above is attributable to an hour of lost sleep in the past few days due to negotiating aid and talking to schools across time zones :/ Thanks to everyone for offering advice despite my horrid writing.

Cool. This is so far outside my minuscule experience that I can't help and didn't vote in the poll. I'd love to see you at NU next year though. Good luck.

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:27 pm

Bumi wrote:
boushi wrote:
Bumi wrote:I still don't understand. Do Asian professors come from American law schools? If you want to consult in Asia, shouldn't you get an MBA in Asia? If you want to do academia, shouldn't you get a PhD in Asia? How does an American law degree help you if you don't want to be a lawyer?


The same way that US law firms keep offices packed with attorneys in East Asia, there are quite a few jobs at top Asian universities for law profs with a US legal education; it's an area that top students want to study there as well. There are also plenty of opportunities for comparative legal studies and such regarding complex regulations and such. For example, companies are constantly benchmarking their financial regulations and tax schemes against one another, and it takes a lot of expertise to really predict the impact that trade agreements will have on certain industries and such (status of force agreements also deal with complicated legal issues for both countries). Moreover, if someone has relevant governmental (read: regulatory) or biglaw experience, there is a lot of opportunity to do consulting work with in-house counsel at major Asian companies. Though such companies of course rely heavily on biglaw in the US and in those firms' respective offices in places like Hong Kong and Tokyo, the costs involved in retaining an entire firm and all its overhead for day-to-day advising and such often leave a pretty big opening for locally based academics and such to provide advisement and such on a contingency basis. The "consulting" (which I know is a broad term that invokes MBAs) in this sense would involve looking at regulatory, trade, or military issues that stem from the US and helping companies develop appropriate strategies for dealing with pertinent changes and such.

I've already done very similar consulting work, though the lack of a legal degree prevents me from entering into the academic side, charging a premium, and truly passing on a work product as actionable legal advice.

EDIT: Everytime I used "and such" in the above is attributable to an hour of lost sleep in the past few days due to negotiating aid and talking to schools across time zones :/ Thanks to everyone for offering advice despite my horrid writing.

Cool. This is so far outside my minuscule experience that I can't help and didn't vote in the poll. I'd love to see you at NU next year though. Good luck.


Thanks!

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Verity
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Verity » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:21 pm

boushi wrote:
Verity wrote:
boushi wrote:
shortporch wrote:You want to enter Asian academia? Asian legal academia? Maybe I don't understand your post.


Sorry, I wrote that after being up all night trading emails in the hopes of finalizing my financial aid offers. To clarify, one position I see myself potentially very happy in would be to split my time between working at a university in Asia (think Yonsei, SNU, U of Tokyo, Keio, etc.) and doing consulting work or being of counsel at a major firm. These types of arrangements, while not terribly common overall, aren't uncommon for professors of all stripes at the higher end schools in Japan and Korea. Other alternative routes would be to work for a gov't agency or even the military (preferably in in a capacity related to those areas) and then transitioning to that type of academic position. I realize there are lots of routes to that type of position and none of them is a sure thing (then again, as a 0L, it is hard to say exactly where my studies and connections will take me anyway). But I suppose using that type of career as a goal is as about as solid of a metric as I can have going into this decision.

Roughly I see it as:

Scenario 1:
Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 2:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
Scenario 3:
*Biglaw firm in Asia -> Gov't Agency/Military -> Academia in Asia/Consulting
OR
Gov't Agency/Military -> *Biglaw firm in Asia -> Academia in Asia/Consulting

*I know many people lateral to Asian biglaw offices from NY or LA offices, and I'd be open to that route as well.

I will try to edit the OP to better reflect this.


Wait for Harvard. If that doesn't work out, deign to accept Chicago.


Well, one of the problems is that Chicago's aid is contingent on withdrawing from all schools you have not heard from. (If I was already wait-listed at Harvard, I would be allowed to ride that wait list.) Honestly, I don't personally care much for prestige and would probably take Chicago over Harvard if the money was right at Chicago. I just don't feel like Chicago has given me aid commensurate to my UVA scholarship (perhaps because Chicago knows I wasn't accepted to Harvard) and I'm a bit reluctant to take that amount without even seeing the potential outcome at Harvard, which could potentially be in the same ballpark as Chicago's offer. Of course, I honestly consider H a very long shot at this point and don't think that it should necessarily cloud to any great extent the more practical comparison between UVA at fullride versus Chicago on a half tuition scholarship.


Chicago.
Last edited by Verity on Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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samsonyte16
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby samsonyte16 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:26 pm

FYI, I'm pretty sure it's against the rules for law schools to demand you withdraw from schools from which you haven't received a final decision. They can give you a deadline to accept/decline the scholarship and request you withdraw from schools that have already accepted you, but they can't force you to withdraw a pending application. The worst that happens if you take the Chicago money and then get into Harvard is you lose your Chicago deposit.

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Verity
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Verity » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:29 pm

samsonyte16 wrote:FYI, I'm pretty sure it's against the rules for law schools to demand you withdraw from schools from which you haven't received a final decision. They can give you a deadline to accept/decline the scholarship and request you withdraw from schools that have already accepted you, but they can't force you to withdraw a pending application. The worst that happens if you take the Chicago money and then get into Harvard is you lose your Chicago deposit.



+1, this seems shady. It doesn't seem like they "force you to withdraw a pending application," but won't give you money if you don't?

09042014
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:35 pm

Planning to academia is hard even if you went to harvard. It's really hard from Uchi. It's virtually impossible from UVA and NU.

Also UVA doesn't have been placement than NU, it's even. And I bet in Asia neither have any reputation, but if they do I'd bet a lot of money NU's got a better rep just because it's a better overall university.

To be honest, I don't think you should go to law school.

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:38 pm

It seems shady to me too, but here is the text on what they ask you to agree to in order to take the money:

Commitment Response Form (Regular Decision)
If you wish to reserve a seat in the University of Chicago Law School Class of 2014, you must submit the Commitment Response Form below. Places in the Class of 2014 will be reserved for all candidates who indicate they wish to reserve a seat and submit a $500 seat deposit. Whether you will be attending the Law School or not, please submit the Commitment Response Form as soon as you have finalized your law school plans. Your cooperation will assist the University of Chicago Law School, as well as other law schools, in determining how many offers of admission to extend and will ensure that candidates with pending applications receive decisions as early as possible. The Law School has a policy that applicants should have, at any time, only one deposit or letter of intent to enroll at a law school unless there are extenuating circumstances that prevent the applicant from making a decision among outstanding offers of admission. When you reserve a seat in the Class of 2014, we request that you withdraw any deposits or commitments to attend any other law school and withdraw any outstanding applications for which you have not received a decision. You are not required to remove your name from waitlists at other law schools. Please do not check this option unless you are fully committed to attending the University of Chicago Law School at this time. [Emphasis added]

Since I am still "held" at Harvard and not wait-listed, it seems they are requesting I withdraw. I guess you could argue that it's not enforceable, but I don't know if I'd want to gamble with them withdrawing my money or something so late in the cycle.

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Verity
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Verity » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:41 pm

boushi wrote:It seems shady to me too, but here is the text on what they ask you to agree to in order to take the money:

Commitment Response Form (Regular Decision)
If you wish to reserve a seat in the University of Chicago Law School Class of 2014, you must submit the Commitment Response Form below. Places in the Class of 2014 will be reserved for all candidates who indicate they wish to reserve a seat and submit a $500 seat deposit. Whether you will be attending the Law School or not, please submit the Commitment Response Form as soon as you have finalized your law school plans. Your cooperation will assist the University of Chicago Law School, as well as other law schools, in determining how many offers of admission to extend and will ensure that candidates with pending applications receive decisions as early as possible. The Law School has a policy that applicants should have, at any time, only one deposit or letter of intent to enroll at a law school unless there are extenuating circumstances that prevent the applicant from making a decision among outstanding offers of admission. When you reserve a seat in the Class of 2014, we request that you withdraw any deposits or commitments to attend any other law school and withdraw any outstanding applications for which you have not received a decision. You are not required to remove your name from waitlists at other law schools. Please do not check this option unless you are fully committed to attending the University of Chicago Law School at this time. [Emphasis added]

Since I am still "held" at Harvard and not wait-listed, it seems they are requesting I withdraw. I guess you could argue that it's not enforceable, but I don't know if I'd want to gamble with them withdrawing my money or something so late in the cycle.


Get an MBA from Harvard.

09042014
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:43 pm

boushi wrote:It seems shady to me too, but here is the text on what they ask you to agree to in order to take the money:

Commitment Response Form (Regular Decision)
If you wish to reserve a seat in the University of Chicago Law School Class of 2014, you must submit the Commitment Response Form below. Places in the Class of 2014 will be reserved for all candidates who indicate they wish to reserve a seat and submit a $500 seat deposit. Whether you will be attending the Law School or not, please submit the Commitment Response Form as soon as you have finalized your law school plans. Your cooperation will assist the University of Chicago Law School, as well as other law schools, in determining how many offers of admission to extend and will ensure that candidates with pending applications receive decisions as early as possible. The Law School has a policy that applicants should have, at any time, only one deposit or letter of intent to enroll at a law school unless there are extenuating circumstances that prevent the applicant from making a decision among outstanding offers of admission. When you reserve a seat in the Class of 2014, we request that you withdraw any deposits or commitments to attend any other law school and withdraw any outstanding applications for which you have not received a decision. You are not required to remove your name from waitlists at other law schools. Please do not check this option unless you are fully committed to attending the University of Chicago Law School at this time. [Emphasis added]

Since I am still "held" at Harvard and not wait-listed, it seems they are requesting I withdraw. I guess you could argue that it's not enforceable, but I don't know if I'd want to gamble with them withdrawing my money or something so late in the cycle.


Held is really a waitlist in my opinion. I'd send Chicago an acceptance but mention you are held at Harvard, and you waiting on that.

Uchi is really the best choice for your pretty high career hopes. UVA and NU aren't worth the extra money if you really want academia.

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:28 am

Verity wrote:
boushi wrote:It seems shady to me too, but here is the text on what they ask you to agree to in order to take the money:

Commitment Response Form (Regular Decision)
If you wish to reserve a seat in the University of Chicago Law School Class of 2014, you must submit the Commitment Response Form below. Places in the Class of 2014 will be reserved for all candidates who indicate they wish to reserve a seat and submit a $500 seat deposit. Whether you will be attending the Law School or not, please submit the Commitment Response Form as soon as you have finalized your law school plans. Your cooperation will assist the University of Chicago Law School, as well as other law schools, in determining how many offers of admission to extend and will ensure that candidates with pending applications receive decisions as early as possible. The Law School has a policy that applicants should have, at any time, only one deposit or letter of intent to enroll at a law school unless there are extenuating circumstances that prevent the applicant from making a decision among outstanding offers of admission. When you reserve a seat in the Class of 2014, we request that you withdraw any deposits or commitments to attend any other law school and withdraw any outstanding applications for which you have not received a decision. You are not required to remove your name from waitlists at other law schools. Please do not check this option unless you are fully committed to attending the University of Chicago Law School at this time. [Emphasis added]

Since I am still "held" at Harvard and not wait-listed, it seems they are requesting I withdraw. I guess you could argue that it's not enforceable, but I don't know if I'd want to gamble with them withdrawing my money or something so late in the cycle.


Get an MBA from Harvard.


I doubt very much that I could be admitted to HBS (or other top business programs, honestly) outright, so I haven't factored them into my decision except in so far as possibly exploring them from the law school via cross-registration or possibly applying during 1L when I have the leg-up of better connections/university affiliation.

Bschool admissions are very different than LS admissions, and it is my understanding that I would be a much weaker candidate for Bschool at present. My thinking in this is basically twofold: (1) I went to a rather crappy UG and (2) Despite a whole bunch of interesting work experience, both in the US and abroad, none of it was particularly finance or management based, which are the domains of top b-schools. While I would certainly hope that adcoms would find the diversity factor of my resume to be a big plus, I have also been chastened a bit by my mixed success in this LS cycle. To wit, UVA loved me and I seemed to have over-performed there in terms of $$$ to numbers, but I think I slightly underperformed at Chicago on that front (I know a guy with the exact same numbers but with no work/language experiences who got more $ from Chicago, for example). Moreover, Stanford straight-up rejected me very early in the cycle (I was the first reject above both of their medians on LSN as far as I could tell) and Columbia held -> reserved me, despite the international focus of my softs and the fact I was above both of their medians. It's been a mixed cycle that has left me with good choices, but I think it was decidedly a mixed cycle.

In any case, I am familiar with the realities of being a lawyer and am sure that I really do enjoy researching and writing about legal issues, so I'm confident that a law degree definitely will help forms a solid basis for my future goals, however unconventional they may seem.

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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:31 am

Desert Fox wrote:Planning to academia is hard even if you went to harvard. It's really hard from Uchi. It's virtually impossible from UVA and NU.

Also UVA doesn't have been placement than NU, it's even. And I bet in Asia neither have any reputation, but if they do I'd bet a lot of money NU's got a better rep just because it's a better overall university.

To be honest, I don't think you should go to law school.


Agreed. Still confused about why this person wants to do anything law related.

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:31 am

Desert Fox wrote:
boushi wrote:It seems shady to me too, but here is the text on what they ask you to agree to in order to take the money:

Commitment Response Form (Regular Decision)
If you wish to reserve a seat in the University of Chicago Law School Class of 2014, you must submit the Commitment Response Form below. Places in the Class of 2014 will be reserved for all candidates who indicate they wish to reserve a seat and submit a $500 seat deposit. Whether you will be attending the Law School or not, please submit the Commitment Response Form as soon as you have finalized your law school plans. Your cooperation will assist the University of Chicago Law School, as well as other law schools, in determining how many offers of admission to extend and will ensure that candidates with pending applications receive decisions as early as possible. The Law School has a policy that applicants should have, at any time, only one deposit or letter of intent to enroll at a law school unless there are extenuating circumstances that prevent the applicant from making a decision among outstanding offers of admission. When you reserve a seat in the Class of 2014, we request that you withdraw any deposits or commitments to attend any other law school and withdraw any outstanding applications for which you have not received a decision. You are not required to remove your name from waitlists at other law schools. Please do not check this option unless you are fully committed to attending the University of Chicago Law School at this time. [Emphasis added]

Since I am still "held" at Harvard and not wait-listed, it seems they are requesting I withdraw. I guess you could argue that it's not enforceable, but I don't know if I'd want to gamble with them withdrawing my money or something so late in the cycle.


Held is really a waitlist in my opinion. I'd send Chicago an acceptance but mention you are held at Harvard, and you waiting on that.

Uchi is really the best choice for your pretty high career hopes. UVA and NU aren't worth the extra money if you really want academia.


These are good points. Honestly, the majority of comments and private messages have urged me to Chicago over UVA, but that hasn't been reflected at all in the poll.

Any of the pro-UVAers have any feedback?

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:40 am

rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Planning to academia is hard even if you went to harvard. It's really hard from Uchi. It's virtually impossible from UVA and NU.

Also UVA doesn't have been placement than NU, it's even. And I bet in Asia neither have any reputation, but if they do I'd bet a lot of money NU's got a better rep just because it's a better overall university.

To be honest, I don't think you should go to law school.


Agreed. Still confused about why this person wants to do anything law related.


I completely understand where you are coming from, but, based on my personal experiences over the last few years, I also know that a law degree is a necessary (but not sufficient) basis for doing the type of work I find most interesting at a very high level (and commanding fees that are commensurate to the sophistication of that work). I've already been very open about my cycle and, to some extent, my background for the benefit of others here, so I'm a bit hesitant to get into more specifics than I've already given. (I understand that any adcom at these schools could easily identify me as is -- and I'm fine with that as I have nothing to hide from them; however, I'd prefer to draw the line there.)

michigan_man
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby michigan_man » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:42 am

you should turn down everything and apply to michigan next year for the dual degree (and a full ride). michigan and columbia have the best japanese legal studies programs in the country. i can't speak to columbia's, but michigan's is really active.
http://www.law.umich.edu/mlawglobal/curriculum/japaneselegalstudies/Pages/default.aspx

also, check out mark west. he's a bad ass.
http://web.law.umich.edu/_FacultyBioPage/facultybiopagenew.asp?ID=21

boushi
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:09 am

michigan_man wrote:you should turn down everything and apply to michigan next year for the dual degree (and a full ride). michigan and columbia have the best japanese legal studies programs in the country. i can't speak to columbia's, but michigan's is really active.
http://www.law.umich.edu/mlawglobal/curriculum/japaneselegalstudies/Pages/default.aspx

also, check out mark west. he's a bad ass.
http://web.law.umich.edu/_FacultyBioPage/facultybiopagenew.asp?ID=21


I have actually met Mark West and am well aware that he is a bad ass. Honestly, when applying I let myself get convinced that I would likely get at least one of Columbia/Stanford/Harvard, which all have both Japanese and Korean law programs (Michigan doesn't have the latter) and, thinking I wasn't quite Darrow material, I overlooked Michigan (lots of work and not wanting to devote another 20 hours or so to making a polished Why Michigan essay following a long, aggrivating few weeks of PS polishing also played a role). Well, you see how that turned out. In the end, however, though I do regret not applying to Michigan and potentially opening that door up, I don't think it's worth waiting another year at this point. I feel like I'm sort of treading water in the work that I'm doing and I'm not getting any younger :/

Thanks for the links though. Hopefully they will help others avoid my mistake.

boushi
Posts: 110
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Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:25 am

Since I know others are facing similar decisions, I have decided to share an email I just received re my situation from a biglaw partner I used to work very closely with. (He or she is the chairman of his or her department in a top firm and has over 30 years of biglaw experience, he or she is also the single most famous lawyer in his or her area of expertise, and, to top it off, he or she knows my goals pretty well.) Anyway, edited to preserve his or her anonymity, here's what he or she had to say:

"...Let me first say that these are nice problems to have. If it were up to me, I would take UVA and preserve the shot at Harvard. However, even if Harvard came through, I am not sure I would take it over UVA if I had to pay the full tuition. There is no reason to have mountains of debt if you can possibly avoid it.

As I think you know, Chicago is generally recognized as an "academically superior" law school to UVA. However, they are both in the top 10 and if you do well at UVA (as I am sure you will) you can go anywhere. I have interviewed at both schools a number of times. From an interviewer's perspective, the differences are twofold:

1. First, location -- the University of Chicago Law School is in what at least use to be a bad city neighborhood, whereas UVA is in a beautiful quasi rural setting.

2. Second, student body -- the University of Chicago student body is made up of a group of much more cosmopolitan intellectuals, whereas a good chunk of the UVA student body consists of southern gentlemen who have an ultra preppie type image.

[Removed personal comment. In sum, he or she preferred UVA based on the above two factors but wasn't sure if I would]. The choice is up to you.

Having said that, I still think UVA is a better overall value/bet, given the fact that it comes at a fraction of the cost."

boushi
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:06 am

Re: Opinions Wanted: Chicago (69k), UVA (142k), NU (150k)

Postby boushi » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:25 pm

Update: I found out from Chicago that, as Desert Fox suggested might be true, they do in fact consider being held as being on a wait list, and I thus wouldn't have to withdraw from H to take the Chicago offer. I also found out that the research position at Chicago that I earlier assumed would be a 1L summer thing would actually happen this summer (but I could do it remotely from my current location). It's also paid, but barely (not nearly as much as I make per hour in my current work), so I would only do it to connect with the prof running the program.

That said, they denied one last request to increase my aid, and thus I'm still pretty torn going into the final 14 hours of my decision (I would have to mail the check from Asia no later than 14 hours from now to hold my seat at Chicago).




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