NW vs WUSTL $$

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

NW or WUSTL $$

Northwestern (COA:210k)
20
67%
WUSTL (COA:114)
10
33%
 
Total votes: 30

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:00 pm

Hannibal wrote:You did see that NU placed 44% into NLJ250 jobs? That only makes sense if WUSTL had -6% placement, and you didn't include regional biglaw not in the NLJ250 rankigns.


Hypo

WUSTL - Class of 100. 20 Get biglaw
NU - Class of 100. 40 Get biglaw.

NU would double your chances in this scenario as opposed to increase them by 20%.

bdubs
Posts: 3729
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bdubs » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:02 pm

Hannibal wrote:
bdubs wrote:It's more like a 50% better chance.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.



You did see that NU placed 44% into NLJ250 jobs? That only makes sense if WUSTL had -6% placement, and you didn't include regional biglaw not in the NLJ250 rankigns.


Probability of getting biglaw doubles going to NU, it's a relative probability not an absolute.

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:03 pm

bk1 wrote: So decide whether another decade or two of loan repayments are worth staying in Chicago for you.


This only works if you have the exact same career coming from both places. The point is that someone goes to NU because of the probability of having a better career.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:05 pm

bdubs wrote:Not sure where you got that info. NU does about as well as its peer schools in clerkship placement. It also does significantly better than WUSTL in Article III placements.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings


At NU you still have a very minimal chance of getting that clerkship. Yes, you're 2-3 times more likely to get it out of NU than WUSTL, but I really don't think the difference between a 5% chance of getting something and a 10% chance of getting something is really that noteworthy.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:07 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
bk1 wrote: So decide whether another decade or two of loan repayments are worth staying in Chicago for you.


This only works if you have the exact same career coming from both places. The point is that someone goes to NU because of the probability of having a better career.


What do you mean by better career exactly? If that is biglaw then sure there is a much better chance of that coming from NU. But on the back end, around 1/3-1/2 of NU grads don't have an LRAP or biglaw job so there is a very decent chance of getting fucked by debt coming out of NU.

But OP wants prestigious PI which is going to be rough out of either, though less rough out of NU. I'm not sure that NU's prestige is justified in this case when the chances out of either school are pretty slim.

cubswin
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 4:40 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby cubswin » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:08 pm

bdubs wrote:
cubswin wrote:
bdubs wrote:Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.


I kind of skipped over that part at the beginning and read mostly responses. Some people get good government jobs out of NU, but its clerkship placement seems like it kind of sucks. If you're sure you want to clerk, I don't know if NU is your best bet. Though I don't know how it compares to WUSTL in that department either.


Not sure where you got that info. NU does about as well as its peer schools in clerkship placement. It also does significantly better than WUSTL in Article III placements.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings



Anyway, you're right, saying the clerkship placement sucks overstates the case. But I'm pretty sure that NU's clerkship placement is slightly lower than its peer schools, and I don't know if I necessarily buy the spin that this is due to self-selection.

bdubs
Posts: 3729
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bdubs » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:14 pm

bk1 wrote:
1. At NU you still have a very minimal chance of getting that clerkship. Yes, you're 2-3 times more likely to get it out of NU than WUSTL, but I really don't think the difference between a 5% chance of getting something and a 10% chance of getting something is really that noteworthy.

2. There are CoA clerks all up down the T50 (heck probably even the T100) so random anecdote doesn't mean anything.


OP has big ambitions, which is why I think they should choose NU. No one ever claimed that getting an Art. III clerkship was easy from any school, even HYS don't place everyone who wants one.

OP check out the site below. Assume that everyone at the top of the class at NU and WUSTL wants these clerkships and then estimate the weight you want to place on that info.

--LinkRemoved--

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:16 pm

bk1 wrote:What do you mean by better career exactly? If that is biglaw then sure there is a much better chance of that coming from NU. But on the back end, around 1/3-1/2 of NU grads don't have an LRAP or biglaw job so there is a very decent chance of getting fucked by debt coming out of NU.



Better start to a career is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm talking about biglaw, market paying lit boutiques, etc. Obviously there is a very real possibility of striking out from either school, but your statement that it's as simple as deciding whether or not it's worth double in loans to work in Chicago is inaccurate. That's part of it, but as big a part is whether it's worth double the loans to increase your odds of getting a good job. The answer to that question is going to be different for everybody.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13918
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:18 pm

How much do you want to work in Chicago?
How much do you want DOJ or a clerkship?
If either of those are "definitely I want it, it's a dealbreaker," your choice is probably NU.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:20 pm

bdubs wrote:OP has big ambitions, which is why I think they should choose NU. No one ever claimed that getting an Art. III clerkship was easy from any school, even HYS don't place everyone who wants one.

OP check out the site below. Assume that everyone at the top of the class at NU and WUSTL wants these clerkships and then estimate the weight you want to place on that info.

--LinkRemoved--


The thing about the difference between NU and WUSTL is that I can understand for biglaw that the difference matters. When you're comparing 20-25% to 40-50%, that is a big difference and a reason to take NU over WUSTL if you really want biglaw. But for clerkships? The difference is way too marginal to justify the additional cost when the difference is something like 3-5% versus 8-10%.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:25 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:Better start to a career is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm talking about biglaw, market paying lit boutiques, etc. Obviously there is a very real possibility of striking out from either school, but your statement that it's as simple as deciding whether or not it's worth double in loans to work in Chicago is inaccurate. That's part of it, but as big a part is whether it's worth double the loans to increase your odds of getting a good job. The answer to that question is going to be different for everybody.


My point was that if the goal is biglaw, I think the loan increase is justifiable (though probably still not the rational choice to make). If the goal is prestigious PI (which I think was the OP's goal), and especially if the goal is an Art. III clerkship, I am not so convinced that the cost is worth it.

The two definite, significant advantages I feel that NU confers over WUSTL are biglaw placement and Chicago placement. Yes, there is an advantage for Art. III's but I don't think that advantage can justify double the cost when it is still far and way unlikely coming out of NU. I would hazard, though it is harder to bear this out with numbers than it is with Art. III's, that NU has an advantage over WUSTL with prestigious PI. However I feel like this sort of thing is still damn hard out of NU and so again I am not sure that NU is worth the additional 100k here.

NU might be worth it for prestigious PI, I'm not entirely sure. NU is worth it for biglaw and placing in Chicago. The question is whether 100k is justified in this case and I'm not inclined to think it is.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby splitmuch » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:28 pm

bk1 wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:Better start to a career is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm talking about biglaw, market paying lit boutiques, etc. Obviously there is a very real possibility of striking out from either school, but your statement that it's as simple as deciding whether or not it's worth double in loans to work in Chicago is inaccurate. That's part of it, but as big a part is whether it's worth double the loans to increase your odds of getting a good job. The answer to that question is going to be different for everybody.


My point was that if the goal is biglaw, I think the loan increase is justifiable (though probably still not the rational choice to make). If the goal is prestigious PI (which I think was the OP's goal), and especially if the goal is an Art. III clerkship, I am not so convinced that the cost is worth it.

The two definite, significant advantages I feel that NU confers over WUSTL are biglaw placement and Chicago placement. Yes, there is an advantage for Art. III's but I don't think that advantage can justify double the cost when it is still far and way unlikely coming out of NU. I would hazard, though it is harder to bear this out with numbers than it is with Art. III's, that NU has an advantage over WUSTL with prestigious PI. However I feel like this sort of thing is still damn hard out of NU and so again I am not sure that NU is worth the additional 100k here.

NU might be worth it for prestigious PI, I'm not entirely sure. NU is worth it for biglaw and placing in Chicago. The question is whether 100k is justified in this case and I'm not inclined to think it is.



In this case, though, say I do well but miss prestigous PI. Say top 25-33%. In that situation, would I still be well situated to get Big Law in Chicago as a "back up?"

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:34 pm

splitmuch wrote:In this case, though, say I do well but miss prestigous PI. Say top 25-33%. In that situation, would I still be well situated to get Big Law in Chicago as a "back up?"


I believe students have told me that it isn't necessarily so easy to target both biglaw and PI at the same time, that you have to make a choice (if some current students could shed light on that, it would be appreciated). I think if you miss out on prestigious PI you should aim for just about any LRAP-eligible job rather than biglaw.

Also, you are more likely to end up outside the top 1/3 than inside the top 1/3 so I wouldn't use anything other than median as your hypothetical point.

The thing is about prestigious PI is that I think is about as rare (if not rarer) than Art. III's for NU grads. I don't think this is self selection because I am specifically talking about prestigious PI which is often rougher than biglaw (to be fair, I think that NU's low PI placement generally does have to do with self selection). Because it is rare (10-15% maybe?) out of NU to get what you want (prestigious PI or Art III), I have a hard time justifying all the additional money over WUSTL. I feel risk aversion in this case is good.

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:36 pm

splitmuch wrote:In this case, though, say I do well but miss prestigous PI. Say top 25-33%. In that situation, would I still be well situated to get Big Law in Chicago as a "back up?"


You would probably do best to ask this in a NU students taking questions thread. I'm not sure about Chicago specifically, but I believe the conventional wisdom on this site from current students is that for t7-13 schools top 1/3 has a very good shot at biglaw, top 2/3 gives you a reasonable shot and bottom 1/3 is pretty screwed.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18426
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:39 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:top 2/3 gives you a reasonable shot


This seems a tad optimistic (for those who are below median), though maybe I'm splitting hairs with the definition of reasonable.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby splitmuch » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:41 pm

Thanks to everyone, you've given me a lot of things to consider.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: NW vs WUSTL $$

Postby Hannibal » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:44 pm

bdubs wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
bdubs wrote:It's more like a 50% better chance.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


Also, OP isn't interested in biglaw, he wants DOJ Honors or clerkship. Those are both going to be a challenge from either school, but I think NU would give him a serious leg up and a good LRAP.



You did see that NU placed 44% into NLJ250 jobs? That only makes sense if WUSTL had -6% placement, and you didn't include regional biglaw not in the NLJ250 rankigns.


Probability of getting biglaw doubles going to NU, it's a relative probability not an absolute.


I should have been clearer in my language, but what's relevant is that an additional 1/4th of the class will get biglaw at NU. So your chances of the prestige of NU's extra 100k debt getting you a biglaw job is 1/4.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests