USC VS Cornell

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:00 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:True I agree definitely, but also, you dont always get what you want, no job < job somewhere else. Thats all Im saying. You can always come back to LA once you get your biglaw start in NYC. Its very hard to get back into biglaw if you miss that ship the first time. all I'm saying...


You're being overly dramatic by saying that somehow USC = no job while Cornell = a job.

OP wants LA biglaw which is something that 1/4-1/3 of USC's class gets. While yes 40%ish or so of Cornell's class gets biglaw, it is hard to say whether OP would be successful aiming for LA with grades barely above median from there but I highly doubt it.

On the flip side, since OP is more likely to miss biglaw than hit it (especially once factoring in aiming at LA from Cornell), USC will make it far easier to get an LA job than Cornell.


Fair enough, but your numbers are the dramatics ones actually. at least a third from USC will get biglaw probably more with clerks. and way more than 40% from Cornell go to biglaw. probably like 60-70% plus clerks. (are you referencing the 2009 nlj data the only year in the last number of years that Cornell hasnt been in the 55-65 range of people that go straight to biglaw?) Referencing that year alone, the biggest anomaly year at that, is not the most reliable way to do it. This year 57% or something, the two years before 2009 were 62% and 62%

Both are good options adn OP may be absolutely correct in going to USC for personal reasons or for SoCal, just Cornell is the better option if you are set on 1. Biglaw and then 2. location. Once you have 1 you can get 2 later.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:03 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Fair enough, but your numbers are the dramatics ones actually. at least a third from USC will get biglaw probably more with clerks. and way more than 40% from Cornell go to biglaw. probably like 60-70% plus clerks. (are you referencing the 2009 nlj data the only year in the last number of years that Cornell hasnt been in the 55-65 range of people that go straight to biglaw?

Both a good options, just Cornell is the better option one if you are set on 1. Biglaw and then 2. location. Once you have 1. you can get 2. later.


I was lowballing it because I forgot to add in A3 clerks. 2009 was a fluke for Cornell who has consistently been lower than the T12. With the AboveTheLaw info Cornell's 2010 NLJ250 percentage looks more like 40%, maybe 45%. Possible to stretch it up to 50-55 if you count clerks, but 60-70? That is insane and not happening.

Actually at sticker, for someone gunning for LA/Denver, I really don't think either are actually "good" options.

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:05 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:Fair enough, but your numbers are the dramatics ones actually. at least a third from USC will get biglaw probably more with clerks. and way more than 40% from Cornell go to biglaw. probably like 60-70% plus clerks. (are you referencing the 2009 nlj data the only year in the last number of years that Cornell hasnt been in the 55-65 range of people that go straight to biglaw?

Both a good options, just Cornell is the better option one if you are set on 1. Biglaw and then 2. location. Once you have 1. you can get 2. later.


I was lowballing it because I forgot to add in A3 clerks. 2009 was a fluke for Cornell who has consistently been lower than the T12. With the AboveTheLaw info Cornell's 2010 NLJ250 percentage looks more like 40%, maybe 45%. Possible to stretch it up to 50-55 if you count clerks, but 60-70? That is insane and not happening.

Actually at sticker, for someone gunning for LA/Denver, I really don't think either are actually "good" options.


Im just being difficult so I apologize but...

nlj 250 data (off the top of my head) for Cornell:
2007: ~62%
2008: ~62%
2009: ~40%
2010: ~57%

Clerks were in the 8%-13% range

So 60%-70% is very reasonable.

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
Actually at sticker, for someone gunning for LA/Denver, I really don't think either are actually "good" options.


OP, are we to assume that you'd only be okay with these two places? Because then I'd agree. I just assumed that OP only meant to say that these two place would be ideal, not the only places OP would consider. In this second case, both schools are pretty good options with Cornell being a little better for its power to place elsewhere as backup.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:10 pm

Law Sauce wrote:Im just being difficult so I apologize but...

nlj 250 data (off the top of my head) for Cornell:
2007: ~62%
2008: ~62%
2009: ~40%
2010: ~57%

Clerks were in the 8%-13% range

So 60%-70% is very reasonable.


Where are you getting 57% for 2010? I'm using: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

2007/2008 were the peak of the boom. Things will are unlikely to be that way ever again in regards to employment prospects.

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:14 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:Im just being difficult so I apologize but...

nlj 250 data (off the top of my head) for Cornell:
2007: ~62%
2008: ~62%
2009: ~40%
2010: ~57%

Clerks were in the 8%-13% range

So 60%-70% is very reasonable.


Where are you getting 57% for 2010? I'm using: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

2007/2008 were the peak of the boom. Things will are unlikely to be that way ever again in regards to employment prospects.


http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 58.3% actually. You're looking at the year before on above the law.

True but look before that. Cornell has always placed in the top 5-10 nationally. The boom just allowed other schools into the biglaw mix by creating a shortage of lawyers. It didnt make firms go a lot deeper in the top schools classes, because they we already going nearly as far as they could go anyway. This is why T1, T2, and T3 grads often have unrealistic expectations for biglaw and are upset that biglaw is going back to the best schools more exclusively again (not totally exclusively of course)

PAR12
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby PAR12 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:20 pm

Top Choice is Denver
2nd Choice is LA

I would consider other places but I will be working hard to land in one of those two markets.

So you actually think Cornell is that much better than USC? If lets say I am in the top 25% of the class?

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:22 pm

hmm just looked at that above the law article and it appears that it is for the next class 2011. interesting you may be on the something, if they do that poorly in 2011... hard to tell...

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:24 pm

PAR12 wrote:Top Choice is Denver
2nd Choice is LA

I would consider other places but I will be working hard to land in one of those two markets.

So you actually think Cornell is that much better than USC? If lets say I am in the top 25% of the class?


I really am not an authority, I dont know that much about this really.

So guessing here...

Top 25% at Cornell, with a little work, you'd have options all over the country and you could have a decent chance at all but the best firms in either of those locations.
Top 25% at USC, I have no clue, I didnt even apply. sorry.

So really, I didnt mean USC was bad, I just am pretty sure Cornell is better. but in Cali that may be not true, I havent looked there at all. Check Nalp's directory from what firms come to either one and then contact a 2L on tls or try to get info out of career services.
Last edited by Law Sauce on Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:25 pm

Law Sauce wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 58.3% actually. You're looking at the year before on above the law.

True but look before that. Cornell has always placed in the top 5-10 nationally. The boom just allowed other schools into the biglaw mix by creating a shortage of lawyers. It didnt make firms go a lot deeper in the top schools classes, because they we already going nearly as far as they could go anyway. This is why T1, T2, and T3 grads often have unrealistic expectations for biglaw and are upset that biglaw is going back to the best schools more exclusively again (not totally exclusively of course)


I misspoke, I meant the ATL data for class of 2011. The Cornell data on ATL is for 2011 whereas the NLJ article you linked is for 2010. The 2011 data that ATL has is far more representative of the future than the 2010 data.

Cornell's placement rides highly on NYC as well which won't necessarily help someone gunning for LA.

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bk1
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:27 pm

PAR12 wrote:Top Choice is Denver
2nd Choice is LA

I would consider other places but I will be working hard to land in one of those two markets.

So you actually think Cornell is that much better than USC? If lets say I am in the top 25% of the class?


You can't guarantee you will be top 25% out of either school though (75% of the time you won't be). That is why I am saying USC > Cornell for you. At the top, you will probably have comparable LA biglaw options. At the bottom though, it is going to be far easier to find any LA job out of USC than it would be out of Cornell.

Denver is honestly a pipe dream and if you really want it I would say reapply next year for a hefty scholly at Boulder. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is highly improbable from either USC or Cornell.

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:27 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 58.3% actually. You're looking at the year before on above the law.

True but look before that. Cornell has always placed in the top 5-10 nationally. The boom just allowed other schools into the biglaw mix by creating a shortage of lawyers. It didnt make firms go a lot deeper in the top schools classes, because they we already going nearly as far as they could go anyway. This is why T1, T2, and T3 grads often have unrealistic expectations for biglaw and are upset that biglaw is going back to the best schools more exclusively again (not totally exclusively of course)


I misspoke, I meant the ATL data for class of 2011. The Cornell data on ATL is for 2011 whereas the NLJ article you linked is for 2010. The 2011 data that ATL has is far more representative of the future than the 2010 data.

Cornell's placement rides highly on NYC as well which won't necessarily help someone gunning for LA.


Yea I just noticed that too. see above.

Your second point is probably correct as well.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:29 pm

bk1 wrote:
PAR12 wrote:Top Choice is Denver
2nd Choice is LA

I would consider other places but I will be working hard to land in one of those two markets.

So you actually think Cornell is that much better than USC? If lets say I am in the top 25% of the class?


You can't guarantee you will be top 25% out of either school though (75% of the time you won't be). That is why I am saying USC > Cornell for you. At the top, you will probably have comparable LA biglaw options. At the bottom though, it is going to be far easier to find any LA job out of USC than it would be out of Cornell.

Denver is honestly a pipe dream and if you really want it I would say reapply next year for a hefty scholly at Boulder. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is highly improbable from either USC or Cornell.


You just need to decide if location or big-time job is more important to you. That's the real choice.

Ok I am sorry, I am done talking.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:30 pm

Law Sauce wrote:You just need to decide if location or big-time job is more important to you. That's the real choice.


I actually agree with you. I just don't think OP is going to do anything except gun for LA/Denver (I could be wrong).

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby PAR12 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:35 pm

I would never go to Boulder over USC or Cornell. That is risking all or nothing.

And Cornell's number are that high because of NY but don't you think that is more because that is where people want to go?

I'd like to know the percent of people that want biglaw in LA that do/dont get it out of Cornell.

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Other25BeforeYou
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:36 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 58.3% actually. You're looking at the year before on above the law.

True but look before that. Cornell has always placed in the top 5-10 nationally. The boom just allowed other schools into the biglaw mix by creating a shortage of lawyers. It didnt make firms go a lot deeper in the top schools classes, because they we already going nearly as far as they could go anyway. This is why T1, T2, and T3 grads often have unrealistic expectations for biglaw and are upset that biglaw is going back to the best schools more exclusively again (not totally exclusively of course)


I misspoke, I meant the ATL data for class of 2011. The Cornell data on ATL is for 2011 whereas the NLJ article you linked is for 2010. The 2011 data that ATL has is far more representative of the future than the 2010 data.

Cornell's placement rides highly on NYC as well which won't necessarily help someone gunning for LA.

Cornell's 2011 data is kinda useless in this equation without USC's 2011 data. Considering how devastating OCI 2009 was, I wouldn't be surprised if most schools' biglaw employment decreased as much as Cornell's did.

OP - for whatever reason, Cornell usually has a few people going to Denver every year, as well as some who go to LA. However, I don't know how many people try to get jobs in Denver, nor do I know the percentage of USC students who try for jobs in Denver and receive them. Sounds to me like your life is in LA though, so if I were you I'd probably choose USC.

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Law Sauce
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:You just need to decide if location or big-time job is more important to you. That's the real choice.


I actually agree with you. I just don't think OP is going to do anything except gun for LA/Denver (I could be wrong).


Yea, but remember that we are only talking about 1st job location. If you get NYC biglaw (even if you dont like it) you will achieve a good level of geographic mobility and can go places that may not have been opened by your performance in school. If you, say that first job location is more important, then you have to realize you may be stuck at the place where you got your first job, and that may not be so bad at all. Without debt load consideration, the better school and/or the better job will eventually lead to more flexibility later on down the line.

Also, OP USC is not that much worse, I am not saying that it is. You need to find that out for yourself, I have not looked into it at all. I am just assuming it doesn't open up the quite national opportunities like Cornell could (Im sure USC does have the ability to open these up for some but probably not as many). And these national opportunities may be important to you, even if you know where you want to go. Personal preference and location preference may validly, I would argue, override this of course.

Ok, now I really will shut up and let some other people who know more than me talk. :)

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby flexityflex86 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:40 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Law Sauce wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1 58.3% actually. You're looking at the year before on above the law.

True but look before that. Cornell has always placed in the top 5-10 nationally. The boom just allowed other schools into the biglaw mix by creating a shortage of lawyers. It didnt make firms go a lot deeper in the top schools classes, because they we already going nearly as far as they could go anyway. This is why T1, T2, and T3 grads often have unrealistic expectations for biglaw and are upset that biglaw is going back to the best schools more exclusively again (not totally exclusively of course)


I misspoke, I meant the ATL data for class of 2011. The Cornell data on ATL is for 2011 whereas the NLJ article you linked is for 2010. The 2011 data that ATL has is far more representative of the future than the 2010 data.

Cornell's placement rides highly on NYC as well which won't necessarily help someone gunning for LA.

Cornell's 2011 data is kinda useless in this equation without USC's 2011 data. Considering how devastating OCI 2009 was, I wouldn't be surprised if most schools' biglaw employment decreased as much as Cornell's did.

OP - for whatever reason, Cornell usually has a few people going to Denver every year, as well as some who go to LA. However, I don't know how many people try to get jobs in Denver, nor do I know the percentage of USC students who try for jobs in Denver and receive them. Sounds to me like your life is in LA though, so if I were you I'd probably choose USC.

To me, the only useful data are percentage who try vs. percentage who try and succeed, which is not data you can get.

It seems logical to imagine more people who like the coldness of Cornell will be happy in Denver than people in so-cal.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Other25BeforeYou wrote:Cornell's 2011 data is kinda useless in this equation without USC's 2011 data. Considering how devastating OCI 2009 was, I wouldn't be surprised if most schools' biglaw employment decreased as much as Cornell's did.

OP - for whatever reason, Cornell usually has a few people going to Denver every year, as well as some who go to LA. However, I don't know how many people try to get jobs in Denver, nor do I know the percentage of USC students who try for jobs in Denver and receive them. Sounds to me like your life is in LA though, so if I were you I'd probably choose USC.


I agree that USC is hurting probably needs something like top 1/4, maybe top 1/3 at best for biglaw. My point of bringing up 2011 data is that 2010 was an anomaly for Cornell and that things are not that rosy.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:45 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:To me, the only useful data are percentage who try vs. percentage who try and succeed, which is not data you can get.

It seems logical to imagine more people who like the coldness of Cornell will be happy in Denver than people in so-cal.


The second part makes no sense. People don't go to Cornell because they like the cold, they go to it because it is prestigious and places well in NYC.

And you're right, we can't get that data but the wisdom passed from people who have gone through OCI is that ties to secondary markets are important in getting a job in that market. OP doesn't have ties to Denver so as I said earlier, getting to Denver is a pipe dream from either Cornell or USC. I would imagine the people who to Denver from USC/Cornell are those with ties.

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby flexityflex86 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:49 pm

bk1 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:To me, the only useful data are percentage who try vs. percentage who try and succeed, which is not data you can get.

It seems logical to imagine more people who like the coldness of Cornell will be happy in Denver than people in so-cal.


The second part makes no sense. People don't go to Cornell because they like the cold, they go to it because it is prestigious and places well in NYC.

And you're right, we can't get that data but the wisdom passed from people who have gone through OCI is that ties to secondary markets are important in getting a job in that market. OP doesn't have ties to Denver so as I said earlier, getting to Denver is a pipe dream from either Cornell or USC. I would imagine the people who to Denver from USC/Cornell are those with ties.

Have you checked out bios at the t-250 Denver firms? Not too many went to University of Colorado.

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bk1
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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:50 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:Have you checked out bios at the t-250 Denver firms? Not too many went to University of Colorado.


That doesn't mean they didn't have ties to Colorado (which OP does not have).

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Magnolia » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:52 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:Have you checked out bios at the t-250 Denver firms? Not too many went to University of Colorado.

UG isn't the only way to establish ties. Those people could have grown up there, have family there, worked there before LS, have an SO from there/living there/with family there, etc...

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Re: USC VS Cornell

Postby Other25BeforeYou » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:11 pm

bk1 wrote:The second part makes no sense. People don't go to Cornell because they like the cold, they go to it because it is prestigious and places well in NYC.

Nah, some of us love the cold, and hate NYC with a fiery passion.




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