Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What say you?

Down by the (3) Riverside
30
77%
Get comfy in the Dawg Pound
9
23%
 
Total votes: 39

Case2L
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Case2L » Sun May 01, 2011 8:34 pm

JDizzle wrote:I've heard a JD from Case is surprisingly portable after graduation--does that still hold true ITE?
. Most of my graduating class that I still keep in touch with work out of state - most on the east coast, with some in the midwest and west coast. Case does appear quite portable, but I do not think the Case name is any more recognizable or prestigious outside of it's region than Pitt is. I think that b/c Case is a private school, it attracts people from outside of Ohio, and many students return to their home state upon graduation. Pitt tends to attract more students that actually want to remain in Pittsburgh after graduation. So while Case superficially appears portable, I cannot say that it would give you any edge over Pitt. Personlly, I like Cleveland and University Circle, and I really enjoyed going to school at Case, but if you have lived in Cleveland for a while and you're ready for a change, then go with Pitt. I have been to Pitt's campus a few times, and it looks like a great place to live and study.

JDizzle
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby JDizzle » Mon May 02, 2011 11:44 am

Case2L wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Most of my graduating class that I still keep in touch with work out of state - most on the east coast, with some in the midwest and west coast. Case does appear quite portable, but I do not think the Case name is any more recognizable or prestigious outside of it's region than Pitt is. I think that b/c Case is a private school, it attracts people from outside of Ohio, and many students return to their home state upon graduation. Pitt tends to attract more students that actually want to remain in Pittsburgh after graduation. So while Case superficially appears portable, I cannot say that it would give you any edge over Pitt. Personlly, I like Cleveland and University Circle, and I really enjoyed going to school at Case, but if you have lived in Cleveland for a while and you're ready for a change, then go with Pitt. I have been to Pitt's campus a few times, and it looks like a great place to live and study.


Thank you for that additional info. Very helpful.

Here's my biggest concern: I go to Case, do well, and I'm still stuck in Cleveland immediately following graduation for several years. If I'm going to have to be confined to either Cleveland or Pittsburgh for several years following graduation from LS, I'd prefer that city be Pittsburgh. If, however, I can go to Case, do well, and stand a reasonable chance of securing employment outside the NE Ohio region following graduation, I would prefer that. Your post makes me think I would stand an equal chance of leaving the CLE/Pitt region following graduation from either school, assuming I do well.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon May 02, 2011 11:48 am

Case2L wrote:I love Cleveland, but Pitt is just a better school than C-M. Even with the information you just provided, I still say Pitt. Pittsburgh is a nice city, and Pitt has a much nicer campus, IMO, than CSU. I've been to both campuses several times, and Pitt has much more of a collegiate, academic feel to it. I think you will enjoy your time at Pitt more than you would at C-M, and quality of life is important for those three years.


Going with this. You'll enjoy Pitt more, and the difference in prestige is very significant. The cost, well, 50k sucks, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd add that Case places very well in Pittsburgh, if that's on your list.

As of 2009, the number of attorneys in Pittsburgh was actually slightly higher than that of Cleveland, but Cleveland has many located in areas nearby its metro area but not counted as part of it. I'd say the Cleveland market is very, very, slightly larger in terms of overall law jobs, but the Pittsburgh economy is better, so whatever.

JDizzle
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby JDizzle » Mon May 02, 2011 12:39 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:I'd add that Case places very well in Pittsburgh, if that's on your list.


Good to know! The thought of attending Case and then moving to Pittsburgh DID cross my mind, but I didn't want to post it for fear of people saying "if that's what you're thinking, then just go to Pitt!"

I like the idea of attending Case because I'm already familiar with Cleveland as a city, have friends/social support network there, and have my job.

Still, Pitt has the potential to be ~$30K cheaper if I can work to pay my own COL. This is HARD!

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon May 02, 2011 3:55 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Ersatz Haderach wrote:I'd add that Case places very well in Pittsburgh, if that's on your list.


Good to know! The thought of attending Case and then moving to Pittsburgh DID cross my mind, but I didn't want to post it for fear of people saying "if that's what you're thinking, then just go to Pitt!"

I like the idea of attending Case because I'm already familiar with Cleveland as a city, have friends/social support network there, and have my job.

Still, Pitt has the potential to be ~$30K cheaper if I can work to pay my own COL. This is HARD!


Well, Pittsburgh is the marginally better city, but Case is the marginally better school. If you really want to work in Pittsburgh long-term and it's significantly cheaper, though, you may as well go there now. Case won't slam the door on that, but why make things harder?

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Mon May 02, 2011 3:57 pm

You do realize it's literally rained here for like 20 consecutive days right? You gotta get out of this city.

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northwood
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 3:58 pm

id go to pittsburgh. You cant really guess how well you will do in law school- and if you want to leave ohio then follow me to pittsburgh. However, if cost and proximity to family is really important- then you will be allright at case. That being typed- you are still pretty close to family in pittsburgh ( if i read that you are from NE ohio)- so its not amajor game changer.

Id honestly go to the school youfeel most comfortable at.

Case2L
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Case2L » Mon May 02, 2011 5:39 pm

northwood wrote:Id honestly go to the school youfeel most comfortable at.


I think this is the credited response. Both are solid, middle-of-the-pack schools, and both enjoy strong regional prestige with limited but possible national reach. JDizzle, unless I am misinterpreting your posts, I feel like you really want to go to Pitt, but are seeing if someone will try to talk you out of it. Because these are basically peer schools, I do not think you will ever have that "what if" feeling if you choose Pitt over Case - it's not like passing up a top 20 school for Pitt. I would say go to Pitt and enjoy the Carnegie Museums and the Riverfront for a minimum of three years and probably a few years after, then apply for reciprocity with the North Carolina State Bar, and open up a practice in the Outer Banks.

Edit - I looked back at your original post, and saw that you're interested in litigation. I don't mean to complicate your decision (and my post about choosing Pitt), but will point out that Case has an awesome law clinic, and if you do the Criminal Justice Clinic, you are guaranteed the opportunity to practice in court as a first chair attorney. Pitt probably has a comparable clinic, and maybe a Pitt student can comment on that.

JDizzle
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby JDizzle » Mon May 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Case2L wrote:JDizzle, unless I am misinterpreting your posts, I feel like you really want to go to Pitt, but are seeing if someone will try to talk you out of it.


Very astute, but I'm really looking for someone to talk me into going one school over the other. I'm hoping someone can provide me with a "clincher" that will make me say "Yes, this new fact about Case/Pitt sold me on the school." In my heart of hearts I would prefer Pitt over Case, but, as a poor white guy, cost is a big concern. Therefore, having a job in Cleveland that I enjoy which I could keep during LS is a big plus. Still, Pitt could potentially be ~$30K cheaper than Case--but it's a big "could be."

The hard logic favors Case: marginally better school, good job in the city during LS, less debt at the moment.

The intangibles favor Pitt: basically peer school w/ Case, better city, possibly more scholarship awards during 2L and 3L, if everything breaks my way (in-state tuition and more scholarship money during 2L and 3L) the cost could be significantly lower than Case.

Case is guaranteed to cost ~$97K. I doubt I'll get any further merit scholarships from them during 2L and 3L.

Pitt is NOT guaranteed to cost ~$114K. Plenty of opportunities for further merit money/finding a job during 2L and 3L.

Case2L wrote:I would say go to Pitt and enjoy the Carnegie Museums and the Riverfront for a minimum of three years and probably a few years after, then apply for reciprocity with the North Carolina State Bar, and open up a practice in the Outer Banks.


That sounds lovely. Really, it's very similar to the vision I have for my life.

Case2L wrote:Edit - I looked back at your original post, and saw that you're interested in litigation. I don't mean to complicate your decision (and my post about choosing Pitt), but will point out that Case has an awesome law clinic, and if you do the Criminal Justice Clinic, you are guaranteed the opportunity to practice in court as a first chair attorney. Pitt probably has a comparable clinic, and maybe a Pitt student can comment on that.


Definitely interested in litigation. I'll have to look into Pitt a bit further to find out if they have a clinic similar to the Criminal Justice Clinic at Case. Being guaranteed the opportunity to first chair makes me salivate, though.

Pitt students/alums, please comment with your thoughts on opportunities for a wannabe litigator studying-at and coming-out of Pitt! Thank you, thank you!

Also, I sent a seat deposit to Pitt today :-D. Still have a couple weeks until Case wants their deposit money.

Cheers, all!

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Mon May 02, 2011 9:31 pm

I could talk up a lot of things about Case, but it seems like you want to go to Pitt. That's the clincher, because there's no compelling reason not to go. Ask Case for more money, when they say no, go to Pitt. Cleveland will still be here if you want to come back. Maybe it will even be sunny...

keg411
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby keg411 » Mon May 02, 2011 10:03 pm

OP, I'm curious where you think this merit money from Pitt is coming from. Maybe it's a new thing, but I applied and was accepted last year (and went to ASD) and I never got the impression that there was some huge 2L/3L cash flow and I also got the impression that it was extremely difficult to get in-state. But maybe the school is selling it differently this year than last year.

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pjo
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby pjo » Mon May 02, 2011 10:34 pm

OP, did you apply to U of Richmond? if you want to work in Richmond, why not just go there? Your making it hard on yourself by going to Pitt or Case if you know you want to work in Southern VA or NC.

blackandyellow
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby blackandyellow » Mon May 02, 2011 10:44 pm

it really depends on whether or not you want to live in pittsburgh or cleveland. Case as a very slight prestige advantage over pitt. However, chances are that you wouldn't get employment outside of ohio. ITE top 5% kids at Case have a hard time leaving ohio.
I think biglaw/midlaw placement between pitt and case are similar. Case might have a slight advantage, however Cleveland biglaw is really hurting right now.

I think it s a tossup depending on where you want to spend the next half decade of your life. IMO i would take the steel city and pitt.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon May 02, 2011 10:55 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Ersatz Haderach wrote:I'd add that Case places very well in Pittsburgh, if that's on your list.


Good to know! The thought of attending Case and then moving to Pittsburgh DID cross my mind, but I didn't want to post it for fear of people saying "if that's what you're thinking, then just go to Pitt!"

I like the idea of attending Case because I'm already familiar with Cleveland as a city, have friends/social support network there, and have my job.

Still, Pitt has the potential to be ~$30K cheaper if I can work to pay my own COL. This is HARD!


Well, Pittsburgh is the marginally better city, but Case is the marginally better school. If you really want to work in Pittsburgh long-term and it's significantly cheaper, though, you may as well go there now. Case won't slam the door on that, but why make things harder?


Judging by placement along with other factors I dont see Case as marginally, or at all better than Pitt. That said we are both biased here so its worthless to argue.

With that said, go where you'll be happy. Realize that there is a very very good chance you'll be staying in the city of wherever your school is for a long long time.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby bport hopeful » Mon May 02, 2011 11:37 pm

So I havent read this thread at all, so Im sorry if this is repetitve or useless information.

I have spent some time in both of those cities. Ive had family that have lived in both cities and they significantly prefer pittsburgh. Its a great city, especially if youre not a big city person.

Also, the one thing I remember about Cleveland is a giant cocroach running down the street.

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northwood
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby northwood » Mon May 02, 2011 11:38 pm

you saw lebron james running?



sorry it was too easy!

JDizzle
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby JDizzle » Mon May 02, 2011 11:46 pm

keg411 wrote:OP, I'm curious where you think this merit money from Pitt is coming from. Maybe it's a new thing, but I applied and was accepted last year (and went to ASD) and I never got the impression that there was some huge 2L/3L cash flow and I also got the impression that it was extremely difficult to get in-state. But maybe the school is selling it differently this year than last year.


Looking through Pitt's website it seems that there are a lot more opportunities for merit-based scholarships during 2L and 3L than at most other law schools. There are several listed on their site that are only available to 2L's and 3L's. It's not necessarily that there's a huge 2L/3L cash flow, but the opportunity is certainly greater at Pitt than at Case. Could you elucidate on your perceived extreme difficulty of getting in-state tuition?--that could be a really huge factor in my decision (ie: if it's really difficult/unlikely to get in-state at Pitt during 2L/3L, I'll be going to Case).

pjo wrote:OP, did you apply to U of Richmond? if you want to work in Richmond, why not just go there? Your making it hard on yourself by going to Pitt or Case if you know you want to work in Southern VA or NC.


I did apply to Richmond and was accepted, even received a small scholarship. Kinda got a weird vibe when I visited though, both from the students and faculty with whom I interacted. Liked the city, though. (no offense to any Richmond folks on here, odds are I didn't meet you)

blackandyellow wrote:it really depends on whether or not you want to live in pittsburgh or cleveland. Case as a very slight prestige advantage over pitt. However, chances are that you wouldn't get employment outside of ohio. ITE top 5% kids at Case have a hard time leaving ohio.


No offense, but on what information are you basing your assertions? Are you a present/former Case or Pitt student? A Pittsburgh or Cleveland lawyer? Not that I don't think it's possible that everything you said is true, but it'd be nice to know that you have some stats to back up your "chances are you won't get employment outside of Ohio" statement, or the "top 5%" figure. I'm past the point where speculation and made-up numbers are helpful and am in need of lawyerly evidence/info.

bport hopeful wrote:Also, the one thing I remember about Cleveland is a giant cocroach running down the street.


Sounds about right...

I'd really like to hear from more Case and Pitt students/alums out there, especially with regard to getting in-state tuition at Pitt and being interested in litigation. Thanks again, everyone.

Case2L
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Case2L » Mon May 02, 2011 11:47 pm

northwood wrote:you saw lebron james running?



sorry it was too easy!

He said he saw a cockroach, not a weasel.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Tue May 03, 2011 6:54 pm

blackandyellow, Top 5% at Case can't leave state? I'm not a 3L, but I find that pretty suspect. Are you a Ohio law school graduate or current student? If so, please share more...

OCI sucks, but people in the upper echelon get jobs, both in Ohio and elsewhere. Typical placement outside Ohio is...half. Or more. The pain is real, but it isn't that dramatic. I think you could even write directly to the CSO and they'd give you a list of places the recent class went out of state. It's below median that has disproportionately suffered. As a 1L, all I can speak to is summer placement, which is hardly determinative, but everyone I know has something, including a lot of firms/federal judge externships. But again, what matters is the final job numbers and the economy in the home market, and Pitt does have an advantage there.

There's no big merit aid other than what you get coming in at Case, but they are more forgiving than most schools in terms of keeping your scholarship. The requirement is top 40-45% and you keep half if you're in about the top 60-70% (approximate numbers, I don't recall exactly). There are also grants for non-paid internships and free bar prep, but I guess that's pretty standard.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue May 03, 2011 8:39 pm

I have a hard time believing top 5% from ANY law school has trouble finding work.

blackandyellow
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby blackandyellow » Tue May 03, 2011 11:26 pm

Ersatz Haderach wrote:blackandyellow, Top 5% at Case can't leave state? I'm not a 3L, but I find that pretty suspect. Are you a Ohio law school graduate or current student? If so, please share more...

OCI sucks, but people in the upper echelon get jobs, both in Ohio and elsewhere. Typical placement outside Ohio is...half. Or more. The pain is real, but it isn't that dramatic. I think you could even write directly to the CSO and they'd give you a list of places the recent class went out of state. It's below median that has disproportionately suffered. As a 1L, all I can speak to is summer placement, which is hardly determinative, but everyone I know has something, including a lot of firms/federal judge externships. But again, what matters is the final job numbers and the economy in the home market, and Pitt does have an advantage there.

There's no big merit aid other than what you get coming in at Case, but they are more forgiving than most schools in terms of keeping your scholarship. The requirement is top 40-45% and you keep half if you're in about the top 60-70% (approximate numbers, I don't recall exactly). There are also grants for non-paid internships and free bar prep, but I guess that's pretty standard.


I go to Pitt so caveat there. I have a friend who goes to Case and is around the top 5% of his class and on Law Review. He interviewed with several firms midlaw/biglaw but only received 1 callback with a midlaw firm. He struck out and is still without a job. He told me that most people in the top 10% have jobs, but just about everyone is working Cleveland biglaw/midlaw. There are a couple people doing midlaw in Columbus/Cinci. This might be self selection, but I am not sure. He also told me that Chicago regional OCI last year had 3 firms. All three were gov jobs. Two of them involved unpaid internships. Later the CSO got mad for no one applying to those three positions.

The same is true at Pitt. Pitt isn't much better. There are people on LR here without jobs. It is possible to get biglaw if you are in the top 10% but it is very difficult to leave Pittsburgh. Case is probably the same way.

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Ersatz Haderach
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Ersatz Haderach » Wed May 04, 2011 10:09 am

blackandyellow wrote:
Ersatz Haderach wrote:blackandyellow, Top 5% at Case can't leave state? I'm not a 3L, but I find that pretty suspect. Are you a Ohio law school graduate or current student? If so, please share more...

OCI sucks, but people in the upper echelon get jobs, both in Ohio and elsewhere. Typical placement outside Ohio is...half. Or more. The pain is real, but it isn't that dramatic. I think you could even write directly to the CSO and they'd give you a list of places the recent class went out of state. It's below median that has disproportionately suffered. As a 1L, all I can speak to is summer placement, which is hardly determinative, but everyone I know has something, including a lot of firms/federal judge externships. But again, what matters is the final job numbers and the economy in the home market, and Pitt does have an advantage there.

There's no big merit aid other than what you get coming in at Case, but they are more forgiving than most schools in terms of keeping your scholarship. The requirement is top 40-45% and you keep half if you're in about the top 60-70% (approximate numbers, I don't recall exactly). There are also grants for non-paid internships and free bar prep, but I guess that's pretty standard.


I go to Pitt so caveat there. I have a friend who goes to Case and is around the top 5% of his class and on Law Review. He interviewed with several firms midlaw/biglaw but only received 1 callback with a midlaw firm. He struck out and is still without a job. He told me that most people in the top 10% have jobs, but just about everyone is working Cleveland biglaw/midlaw. There are a couple people doing midlaw in Columbus/Cinci. This might be self selection, but I am not sure. He also told me that Chicago regional OCI last year had 3 firms. All three were gov jobs. Two of them involved unpaid internships. Later the CSO got mad for no one applying to those three positions.

The same is true at Pitt. Pitt isn't much better. There are people on LR here without jobs. It is possible to get biglaw if you are in the top 10% but it is very difficult to leave Pittsburgh. Case is probably the same way.


Fair enough. That sucks. Yeah, I pretty much ignore the CSO except for networking events, which they aren't too bad at. But most of that is local stuff.

JDizzle
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby JDizzle » Wed May 04, 2011 10:42 am

blackandyellow wrote:I go to Pitt so caveat there. I have a friend who goes to Case and is around the top 5% of his class and on Law Review. He interviewed with several firms midlaw/biglaw but only received 1 callback with a midlaw firm. He struck out and is still without a job. He told me that most people in the top 10% have jobs, but just about everyone is working Cleveland biglaw/midlaw. There are a couple people doing midlaw in Columbus/Cinci. This might be self selection, but I am not sure. He also told me that Chicago regional OCI last year had 3 firms. All three were gov jobs. Two of them involved unpaid internships. Later the CSO got mad for no one applying to those three positions.

The same is true at Pitt. Pitt isn't much better. There are people on LR here without jobs. It is possible to get biglaw if you are in the top 10% but it is very difficult to leave Pittsburgh. Case is probably the same way.


Thanks very much for clearing that up. A bit disheartening, but now I have a better idea of what to expect coming out of either school. I suppose my preference for living in Pittsburgh over Cleveland should take precedence in this case, seeing as I'll be in either city for at least a few years following law school.

However, wanting to be a litigator, is it reasonable to think that I could secure a position as a public defender or a spot in a DA's office in the Outer Banks immediately following graduation from either Case or Pitt? I know these aren't the jobs that most LS grads "gun for," but I really want to be in court and don't mind the lesser salary. Feel free to tell me to put down the pipe, if that be the case.

Case2L
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Re: Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

Postby Case2L » Wed May 04, 2011 11:11 am

JDizzle wrote:
blackandyellow wrote:I go to Pitt so caveat there. I have a friend who goes to Case and is around the top 5% of his class and on Law Review. He interviewed with several firms midlaw/biglaw but only received 1 callback with a midlaw firm. He struck out and is still without a job. He told me that most people in the top 10% have jobs, but just about everyone is working Cleveland biglaw/midlaw. There are a couple people doing midlaw in Columbus/Cinci. This might be self selection, but I am not sure. He also told me that Chicago regional OCI last year had 3 firms. All three were gov jobs. Two of them involved unpaid internships. Later the CSO got mad for no one applying to those three positions.

The same is true at Pitt. Pitt isn't much better. There are people on LR here without jobs. It is possible to get biglaw if you are in the top 10% but it is very difficult to leave Pittsburgh. Case is probably the same way.


Thanks very much for clearing that up. A bit disheartening, but now I have a better idea of what to expect coming out of either school. I suppose my preference for living in Pittsburgh over Cleveland should take precedence in this case, seeing as I'll be in either city for at least a few years following law school.

However, wanting to be a litigator, is it reasonable to think that I could secure a position as a public defender or a spot in a DA's office in the Outer Banks immediately following graduation from either Case or Pitt? I know these aren't the jobs that most LS grads "gun for," but I really want to be in court and don't mind the lesser salary. Feel free to tell me to put down the pipe, if that be the case.

FWIW, I had much success networking and setting up interviews at DA and PD offices all over the country, due to my participation in the Criminal Justice Clinic and the subsequent recommendations from my clinic professors. However, that was shortly before the bottom fell out of the economy. With many state and county hiring freezes, networking might be more difficult these days. JDizzle, feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions about Case, it's clinic, and my job search.




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