Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:57 am

geoduck wrote:What I find interesting about that data is how many PT jobs BU grads are taking. Definitely not the most important thing on the page, but it piques my interest. Again though, cost of living can't be discounted.

Assuming these links work...

http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=8 ... 2=52507000
http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=8 ... 2=53651000

I used the imaginary base rate of $85k for Minneapolis. You'd have to make $132,5k in Boston or $136,7k in NYC for the same standard of living. Reverse it and take $160k in Boston. You would only have to make $102k in Minneapolis. And there are people who pull in more than that starting there.


BU/BC have about the same parttime + unemployed + unknown percentage as UMinn so I'd say that's a wash.

Actually after looking at the salary data I'd say that UMinn is actually pretty comparable to BU/BC (based on how much of their class is making 6 figures which is something like 1/3 for BU/BC and 1/4 for UMinn, as I think that is a necessary starting point for servicing sticker price debt). That being said, I don't think the way to look at it is by saying that Minnesota grads have a higher ceiling because they can make more money relative to cost of living. So UMinn isn't as bad as I thought but of course we are both ignoring the fact that someone needs to be okay with working in the given area.

mettasutta
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby mettasutta » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:43 am

niederbomb wrote:
If you're top of your class at Fordham, you might get hired in an office where you're working with a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn grads. If you're top of your class at Minnesota, you might get into a top (although mid-sized compared to NYC) firm in the Twin Cities where everyone at the office comes from your school or below. In which situation would you rather find yourself?


The same could be said of other state flagship schools that dominate their respective markets but just so happen to be ranked below Minnesota in USNWR. Why yes to Minnesota but no to UNC, UF, Iowa, U of Arizona, CU-Boulder, etc.? If you're in-state and want to practice in those regions, they are affordable, solid options.

aliarrow
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:54 am

If you're top of your class at UCLA you'll probably end up working with a bunch of Stanford grads...

Is the moral of this analogy to not work in competitive markets because you'll always be overshadowed?
If so, it's a pretty useless analogy. Why not just go to West Virginia U and profit?

droges
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby droges » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:51 pm

Maybe my initial question shouldn't have included the term investment. What was intedned to be asked was what situations or circumstances do you find attending law school to be favorable or worth while. Meaning is it smart to go to a BU/BC/GW with a small scholarship and incur upwards of 150k or go to a regional school where you receive a very large scholarship and graduate with minimal debt or go sticker to a t-14. I also think some analysis is nearsighted, granted there are half who will finish in the bottom 50% of there class, but for the other percent or top 1/4 at a top 20-30 school to incur large debt than some are willing because after all the debt has been paid, the probability of having a higher salary and lifetime earnings are superior to someone who has no debt at a school outside this range.

rose711
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby rose711 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:56 pm

I have one circumstance in which one should NOT attend law school. You should never go to law school just because you can't think of anything else to do with your life. Law school is not a default option for life.

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:02 pm

droges wrote:Maybe my initial question shouldn't have included the term investment. What was intedned to be asked was what situations or circumstances do you find attending law school to be favorable or worth while. Meaning is it smart to go to a BU/BC/GW with a small scholarship and incur upwards of 150k or go to a regional school where you receive a very large scholarship and graduate with minimal debt or go sticker to a t-14. I also think some analysis is nearsighted, granted there are half who will finish in the bottom 50% of there class, but for the other percent or top 1/4 at a top 20-30 school to incur large debt than some are willing because after all the debt has been paid, the probability of having a higher salary and lifetime earnings are superior to someone who has no debt at a school outside this range.


This is what I got at with my cost thing. I think 50-75k debt at a TT is a better idea than incurring 150k debt at BU/BC/GW.

The problem with your argument regarding finishing top 1/2 versus bottom 1/2 is that you cannot guarantee which half you are going to fall into and if you fall into the latter with 150-200k in the hole, you're pretty fucked.

droges
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby droges » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:07 pm

Exactly, that is why i made specific reference to the top 1/2 or 1/4, not all. Maybe if you have the option between t-14 and something lower, its better to go to the regional school not only b/c you can reduce debt but also because the probability of a higher scoring candidate graduating higher in the class is probably better. Just a thought.

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geoduck
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby geoduck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:10 pm

mettasutta wrote:
niederbomb wrote:
If you're top of your class at Fordham, you might get hired in an office where you're working with a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn grads. If you're top of your class at Minnesota, you might get into a top (although mid-sized compared to NYC) firm in the Twin Cities where everyone at the office comes from your school or below. In which situation would you rather find yourself?


The same could be said of other state flagship schools that dominate their respective markets but just so happen to be ranked below Minnesota in USNWR. Why yes to Minnesota but no to UNC, UF, Iowa, U of Arizona, CU-Boulder, etc.? If you're in-state and want to practice in those regions, they are affordable, solid options.


The difference is that Minnesota owns its home market AND has portability. Not T-14 portability, but portability.

UMN: --LinkRemoved--

UNC: --LinkRemoved--

UF: --LinkRemoved--

Iowa: --LinkRemoved--

UA: --LinkRemoved--

CU-Boulder: --LinkRemoved--

See how different the portability is? UA is deceptive because it sits right next to the Pacific market. Iowa's the most portable outside of UMN, which is reflected in its #27 ranking. UMN's superior NLJ250 placement and home market help push it above.

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:12 pm

droges wrote:Exactly, that is why i made specific reference to the top 1/2 or 1/4, not all. Maybe if you have the option between t-14 and something lower, its better to go to the regional school not only b/c you can reduce debt but also because the probability of a higher scoring candidate graduating higher in the class is probably better. Just a thought.


It is foolish to assume that your chances of getting better grades are significant.

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geoduck
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby geoduck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
droges wrote:Exactly, that is why i made specific reference to the top 1/2 or 1/4, not all. Maybe if you have the option between t-14 and something lower, its better to go to the regional school not only b/c you can reduce debt but also because the probability of a higher scoring candidate graduating higher in the class is probably better. Just a thought.


It is foolish to assume that your chances of getting better grades are significant.


+1

droges
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby droges » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:29 pm

it is true that it is foolish to assume that your grades or class rank would be higher, but if you are looking at it from the the assumption that higher LSAT or GPA equals more qualified student, not saying that I am, the argument could be made that your chances of finishing higher in your class are greater at a lower ranked school.

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:34 pm

droges wrote:it is true that it is foolish to assume that your grades or class rank would be higher, but if you are looking at it from the the assumption that higher LSAT or GPA equals more qualified student, not saying that I am, the argument could be made that your chances of finishing higher in your class are greater at a lower ranked school.


LSAT/GPA only account for about 20% of 1L grades. Seems like a huge gamble to bank on just that 20% to elevate you to be better than your peers, and it would require a significant LSAT gap between you and your peers. You then have to factor the fact that there is a certain amount of kids at lower ranked schools who have the same GPA/LSAT combo as you do because they were lured to go their via a good scholarship just as you were.

So as I said earlier, it's a bad idea and pretty much every law student will tell you that.

adt231
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby adt231 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:42 pm

bk1 wrote:
droges wrote:it is true that it is foolish to assume that your grades or class rank would be higher, but if you are looking at it from the the assumption that higher LSAT or GPA equals more qualified student, not saying that I am, the argument could be made that your chances of finishing higher in your class are greater at a lower ranked school.


LSAT/GPA only account for about 20% of 1L grades. Seems like a huge gamble to bank on just that 20% to elevate you to be better than your peers, and it would require a significant LSAT gap between you and your peers. You then have to factor the fact that there is a certain amount of kids at lower ranked schools who have the same GPA/LSAT combo as you do because they were lured to go their via a good scholarship just as you were.

So as I said earlier, it's a bad idea and pretty much every law student will tell you that.


I agree with bk1 that it is a very bad idea. Another way you can look at it: do you really think getting one or two less Bs and getting a few more questions right on the LSAT really means that you are a better student?

On a related point, it is also very depressing that most firms make the same stupid assumption when hiring (as they hire much more deeply into certain schools and not others for pretty objectively BAD reasons). It forces us prospective law students to be prestige whores because they are bad at reasoning.

edited: because I also seem to need to fix my typos!

droges
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby droges » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:49 pm

This website is very informative, but kinda depressing

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:52 pm

droges wrote:This website is very informative, but kinda depressing


And yet TLS is probably the most upbeat out of all the law school forums and blogs.

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geoduck
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby geoduck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:53 pm

droges wrote:This website is very informative, but kinda depressing


Thank you for flying with TLS. Please pick up your complimentary cyanide pill.

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Perch
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby Perch » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:44 pm

so BC=BU ITT?

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geoduck
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby geoduck » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:46 pm

Perch wrote:so BC=BU ITT?


Their data and rank are extremely close. They aren't identical twins... they're fraternal twins. You know, the ones where one is more attractive than the other but they're pretty damn similar.

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bk1
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:15 pm

Perch wrote:so BC=BU ITT?


ITT? How about BU=BC everywhere.

FiveSermon
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby FiveSermon » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:15 pm

HYS is TCR

mettasutta
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby mettasutta » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:22 pm

geoduck wrote:
Perch wrote:so BC=BU ITT?


Their data and rank are extremely close. They aren't identical twins... they're fraternal twins. You know, the ones where one is more attractive than the other but they're pretty damn similar.


The more attractive one being BC, of course (if we're talking about pure aesthetics here...even BU students admit that the law tower is an eyesore :P )

aliarrow
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:32 pm

mettasutta wrote:
geoduck wrote:
Perch wrote:so BC=BU ITT?


Their data and rank are extremely close. They aren't identical twins... they're fraternal twins. You know, the ones where one is more attractive than the other but they're pretty damn similar.


The more attractive one being BC, of course (if we're talking about pure aesthetics here...even BU students admit that the law tower is an eyesore :P )


If we're talking aesthetics then the difference is more like the Lawrence Welk Sisters from SNL, not more of a 'twin comparison'. (I couldn't find a good image, deal with it and visualize)

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BrianGriffintheDog
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby BrianGriffintheDog » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:36 pm

When you work for a company that is willing to cover the tuition (or at least some of it) and promises you of increase incr in your salary.

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YaSvoboden
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby YaSvoboden » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:21 pm

BrianGriffintheDog wrote:When you work for a company that is willing to cover the tuition (or at least some of it) and promises you of increase incr in your salary.


I'm pretty sure that is the answer for when you should get an MBA.

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Fred_McGriff
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Re: Under what circumstances should one attend law school?

Postby Fred_McGriff » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:43 pm

want to be a lawyer

go to a good school for you based on job prospects, location, reputation

are able to do it with very little debt




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