Suffolk or William Mitchell??

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alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:57 am

zreinhar wrote:Bro its not ignorance, what if that suffolk grad worked at a really really nice restuarant Vanwinkle mentioned? and consulted for their slip and fall suits? That's versatile as hell.


That's great man. He would get time and half for that work, right? I wonder if he'd still get a free meal on the days he worked?

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zreinhar
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby zreinhar » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:02 pm

alumniguy wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Bro its not ignorance, what if that suffolk grad worked at a really really nice restuarant Vanwinkle mentioned? and consulted for their slip and fall suits? That's versatile as hell.


That's great man. He would get time and half for that work, right? I wonder if he'd still get a free meal on the days he worked?


I used to get paid in cheeseburgers on slow days, so I don't see why not. Plus everyday is a networking opportunity!

DCnative
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby DCnative » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:06 pm

Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law. A previous poster asked if I had backup plans in case it didn't work out, and my reply was to that poster. It was not a disillusioned statement that I made, wanting to get a JD *because* it's versatile. That's ridiculous. It'd be nice if you read posts before replying.

Also, I never said it was like an undergrad degree. In fact, I've stated tons to the contrary in several posts. Those are interests of mine, not career paths that I'm married to. One can have an interest in public interest law and not practice it a day in their life because it's not practical. Same goes for anything that is a hobby. Again, it'd be nice if you read posts before responding, alumniguy.

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thecilent
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby thecilent » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:08 pm

DCnative wrote:Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law. A previous poster asked if I had backup plans in case it didn't work out, and my reply was to that poster. It was not a disillusioned statement that I made, wanting to get a JD *because* it's versatile. That's ridiculous. It'd be nice if you read posts before replying.

Also, I never said it was like an undergrad degree. In fact, I've stated tons to the contrary in several posts. Those are interests of mine, not career paths that I'm married to. One can have an interest in public interest law and not practice it a day in their life because it's not practical. Same goes for anything that is a hobby. Again, it'd be nice if you read posts before responding, alumniguy.

Okay dude we get it. We advised don't do it; people have gave you really informative posts and links; you're going to do it anyway.

/thread pleasee

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zreinhar
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby zreinhar » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:08 pm

DCnative wrote:Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law. A previous poster asked if I had backup plans in case it didn't work out, and my reply was to that poster. It was not a disillusioned statement that I made, wanting to get a JD *because* it's versatile. That's ridiculous. It'd be nice if you read posts before replying.

Also, I never said it was like an undergrad degree. In fact, I've stated tons to the contrary in several posts. Those are interests of mine, not career paths that I'm married to. One can have an interest in public interest law and not practice it a day in their life because it's not practical. Same goes for anything that is a hobby. Again, it'd be nice if you read posts before responding, alumniguy.


Are you interested in cheeseburgers?

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:18 pm

thecilent wrote:
DCnative wrote:Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law. A previous poster asked if I had backup plans in case it didn't work out, and my reply was to that poster. It was not a disillusioned statement that I made, wanting to get a JD *because* it's versatile. That's ridiculous. It'd be nice if you read posts before replying.

Also, I never said it was like an undergrad degree. In fact, I've stated tons to the contrary in several posts. Those are interests of mine, not career paths that I'm married to. One can have an interest in public interest law and not practice it a day in their life because it's not practical. Same goes for anything that is a hobby. Again, it'd be nice if you read posts before responding, alumniguy.

Okay dude we get it. We advised don't do it; people have gave you really informative posts and links; you're going to do it anyway.

/thread pleasee



Good luck indeed. One FINAL suggestion for OP if he makes it to law school. If your professor is giving you advice and tells you your thinking about an issue the wrong way, then just accept it and alter your way of thinking. You seem to resent people with previous experience giving you advice that goes against what you think is best. You aren't going to get a good grade if you don't listen to your professor. And if you happen to make it to a corporate law firm, just listen to your partners even if you are convinced they are wrong. That is just the way things work.

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:21 pm

For Suffolk class of 2009:
80.2% Employed 9 Months Out
65% of those employed are in JD Required
93.3% of those are employed full time

= 48.64% chance of landing a job as a full time attorney 9 months after graduation (I don't think this figure includes Doc Review type jobs, these jobs are in another category).

480 Grads.
233 End up as lawyers.

Not really great odds, but it's possible. The odds are still stacked in favor of you not becoming a lawyer after graduation.

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zreinhar
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby zreinhar » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:23 pm

My question still stands, this is important...

DCnative
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby DCnative » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:30 pm

Thanks, aliarrow. Where did you find this information? On their website? I'm going to contact the school for more specific recent employment data. The odds aren't great, but they aren't terrible either. Most of this data is reflective of recent grads too - I also want to know about those 2-3 years down the road after graduation. I feel as if the statistics would go up.

Those who think that JD graduates from a TTT school spend the rest of their life flipping burgers are off your rocker. They may not wind up in the legal field, but they certainly aren't flipping burgers either.

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:37 pm

DCnative wrote:Thanks, aliarrow. Where did you find this information? On their website? I'm going to contact the school for more specific recent employment data. The odds aren't great, but they aren't terrible either. Most of this data is reflective of recent grads too - I also want to know about those 2-3 years down the road after graduation. I feel as if the statistics would go up.

Those who think that JD graduates from a TTT school spend the rest of their life flipping burgers are off your rocker. They may not wind up in the legal field, but they certainly aren't flipping burgers either.


Its part of the new US News release (they've been giving more detailed info).

Something to consider though:
The median salaries aren't that high for the 46% working as lawyers - plus these are going to mostly be private practice jobs, so you won't qualify for a tax free IBR loan forgiveness after 10 years. Rather, you'll be paying that debt for 25 years under IBR, not even making interest payments, then getting hit with a tax bomb (Any loan forgiven under the private sector option of IBR is treated as taxable income) which could very easily be six figures. I know a huge starting salary probably isn't important to you since you just want to be a lawyer, but the prospect of having debt following you for the rest of your life that you're unable to pay is something to bear in mind. I wouldn't even recommend going into the private sector if you have six figure debt unless you hit big law (which you almost assuredly won't from Suffolk) for that very reason. So by the nature of the debt you'd be forced into looking for some sort of public job (ie public school teacher/administrator/janitor/etc, Americorps, etc) just so you can forgive the loan after 10 years tax free. By then, with all that non-lawyer experience, you'll be completely shut out of the legal field since your experience is completely unrelated and the whole experience and struggle will be for nothing.

I sort of rambled there and I'm not sure how comprehensible everything I just said is, if you need any clarification on anything just let me know.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:41 pm

DCnative wrote:I would normally be inclined to agree with you, vanwinkle, but a lot of these law school grads do not do their research beforehand.

See, you say that like you've done enough research, but then you make statements like this:

DCnative wrote:Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law.

My point was, schools like Suffolk are not good schools for people who want to practice law. The statistical odds of getting a legal job after graduating with a JD from Suffolk or many similar schools is very low. If you had truly done your research, and were acting rationally on that, you would be aware of the low odds and not be joining the ranks of those assuming that you are somehow going to be able to beat them.

Yes, it's possible you'll succeed. But you're not acting like you accept the reality that it's more than 50% likely you will not, and that's a high risk to be taking given that it costs over $100K and three years of your life. Are you really prepared for the realistic possibility of not outshining your classmates, no prospects of legal employment whatsoever, and the knowledge that you could've been working wherever you ended up already without the crushing debt load?

It does not sound like it. Instead, you keep talking like you're special or you'll beat the odds or something, and if you'd "done the research" you'd know how foolish that kind of attitude can be. That's why people are almost universally disagreeing with you.

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:45 pm

DCnative wrote:Thanks, aliarrow. Where did you find this information? On their website? I'm going to contact the school for more specific recent employment data. The odds aren't great, but they aren't terrible either. Most of this data is reflective of recent grads too - I also want to know about those 2-3 years down the road after graduation. I feel as if the statistics would go up.

Those who think that JD graduates from a TTT school spend the rest of their life flipping burgers are off your rocker. They may not wind up in the legal field, but they certainly aren't flipping burgers either.


No, but they also aren't lawyers. They wasted 3 years of school, spent over a hundred thousand dollars and lost out on 3 years of alternate work experience. It was all for nothing.

If you were a LAW school and you existed so as to prepare students to become LAWYERS, then how can you you be considered a good school if only 50% of your graduates can obtain law jobs upon graduation? You can't be considered a good school.

The issue is that there are TOO many entry level lawyers compared to the actual number of JOBS. That is a fact DCNative. So every year there are going to be large numbers of graduates that can't find jobs. Even in a good economy these graduates disproportionately come from the lower ranked (T100+) or unranked law schools. In a bad economy, even students at good law schools (T20s-50s) can't find jobs let alone students at lower ranked or unranked schools.

Now, if you could attend Suffolk on a full scholarship, you many not have much to lose. You are 90% sure you want to be a lawyer (notice my improved reading comprehension?). At zero debt, even if you can't find a job as a lawyer, you'll be able to find something that pays the bills and you won't have debt service payments to make. But in your scenario you are looking at sticker at Suffolk. You should just go to the cheapest school you can. That is about the best scenario for you.

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:48 pm

aliarrow wrote:For Suffolk class of 2009:
80.2% Employed 9 Months Out
65% of those employed are in JD Required
93.3% of those are employed full time

= 48.64% chance of landing a job as a full time attorney 9 months after graduation (I don't think this figure includes Doc Review type jobs, these jobs are in another category).

480 Grads.
233 End up as lawyers.

Not really great odds, but it's possible. The odds are still stacked in favor of you not becoming a lawyer after graduation.

I'm not sure where you got these numbers, but even if 48.64% ended up getting a J.D. job, what kinds of jobs do you think those are? Mostly low-paying, not very good jobs.

OP, if you want to go to law school, put yourself in the best possible position to succeed. Going to either of these schools is not putting yourself in a position for success. That isn't to say that success isn't possible, but it is going to be a hell of a lot harder and riskier than it would be if you retook and went elsewhere, or simply chose another career path. You're playing with fire here.

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:
aliarrow wrote:For Suffolk class of 2009:
80.2% Employed 9 Months Out
65% of those employed are in JD Required
93.3% of those are employed full time

= 48.64% chance of landing a job as a full time attorney 9 months after graduation (I don't think this figure includes Doc Review type jobs, these jobs are in another category).

480 Grads.
233 End up as lawyers.

Not really great odds, but it's possible. The odds are still stacked in favor of you not becoming a lawyer after graduation.

I'm not sure where you got these numbers, but even if 48.64% ended up getting a J.D. job, what kinds of jobs do you think those are? Mostly low-paying, not very good jobs.

OP, if you want to go to law school, put yourself in the best possible position to succeed. Going to either of these schools is not putting yourself in a position for success. That isn't to say that success isn't possible, but it is going to be a hell of a lot harder and riskier than it would be if you retook and went elsewhere, or simply chose another career path. You're playing with fire here.


I acknowledged in a later post - they are low paying jobs.

For that reason, you really should follow Alumni's advice and just go somewhere cheap. At least then you won't be in a position to be forced to scramble for a public sector non-legal job just to take care of the debt. You'd at least be in a position to accept a low-paying private sector legal job if the opportunity presents itself since you wouldn't have to worry about six figure debt.

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:53 pm

alumniguy wrote:No, but they also aren't lawyers. They wasted 3 years of school, spent over a hundred thousand dollars and lost out on 3 years of alternate work experience. It was all for nothing.

If you were a LAW school and you existed so as to prepare students to become LAWYERS, then how can you you be considered a good school if only 50% of your graduates can obtain law jobs upon graduation? You can't be considered a good school.

The issue is that there are TOO many entry level lawyers compared to the actual number of JOBS. That is a fact DCNative. So every year there are going to be large numbers of graduates that can't find jobs. Even in a good economy these graduates disproportionately come from the lower ranked (T100+) or unranked law schools. In a bad economy, even students at good law schools (T20s-50s) can't find jobs let alone students at lower ranked or unranked schools.

Now, if you could attend Suffolk on a full scholarship, you many not have much to lose. You are 90% sure you want to be a lawyer (notice my improved reading comprehension?). At zero debt, even if you can't find a job as a lawyer, you'll be able to find something that pays the bills and you won't have debt service payments to make. But in your scenario you are looking at sticker at Suffolk. You should just go to the cheapest school you can. That is about the best scenario for you.

This is a fantastic, post, especially the bolded. If only half of your students get J.D. jobs (which I think could be a high number ITE), and most of those J.D. jobs are pretty terrible jobs, you can't call yourself a good school. I'm tired of everyone being all politically correct and trying to call every school a good school. Some schools are not good schools. Some schools suck. They are called TTTs for a reason. Sure, some people succeed from these places, but if your job as a school is to prepare people to be lawyers, and half of your students leave the field and almost all of them are using their 6-figure degree to make a low starting salary, you aren't a good school.

DCnative
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby DCnative » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:59 pm

No, I appreciate the help, aliarrow. I haven't been able to pick up the most recent copy of USNWR yet, so am still going off of last year's. I'll definitely grab the newest version of that and take a look at William Mitchell's stats as well and see what I can't milk out of each school's detailed employment stats.

I do love how everyone has such a vested interest in this thread, as if they're getting so riled up over something that doesn't matter to them in the slightest. For real, you guys crack me up.

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:00 pm

DCnative wrote:No, I appreciate the help, aliarrow. I haven't been able to pick up the most recent copy of USNWR yet, so am still going off of last year's. I'll definitely grab the newest version of that and take a look at William Mitchell's stats as well and see what I can't milk out of each school's detailed employment stats.

I do love how everyone has such a vested interest in this thread, as if they're getting so riled up over something that doesn't matter to them in the slightest. For real, you guys crack me up.


I've been compiling the data in my mega-thread if you're curious
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

I'm not up to WM or Suffolk yet though, just the top 100.

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dpk711
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby dpk711 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:04 pm

DCnative wrote:No, I appreciate the help, aliarrow. I haven't been able to pick up the most recent copy of USNWR yet, so am still going off of last year's. I'll definitely grab the newest version of that and take a look at William Mitchell's stats as well and see what I can't milk out of each school's detailed employment stats.

I do love how everyone has such a vested interest in this thread, as if they're getting so riled up over something that doesn't matter to them in the slightest. For real, you guys crack me up.

OP, but the fact is that it matters for you, or at least it should.

DCnative
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby DCnative » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:05 pm

Oh, thanks aliarrow! I still haven't heard back from some schools, so this may in fact prove helpful for some of those if I'm accepted, or at least as a comparison so I can look at the raw data. :lol:

And bullying should matter to me why? I appreciate the honest, well-founded responses, even if they aren't positive. The bullies? Heck no.

cayerjt
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby cayerjt » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:05 pm

I
Last edited by cayerjt on Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:07 pm

DCnative wrote:No, I appreciate the help, aliarrow. I haven't been able to pick up the most recent copy of USNWR yet, so am still going off of last year's. I'll definitely grab the newest version of that and take a look at William Mitchell's stats as well and see what I can't milk out of each school's detailed employment stats.

I do love how everyone has such a vested interest in this thread, as if they're getting so riled up over something that doesn't matter to them in the slightest. For real, you guys crack me up.


Save your money DCnative. Any changes from 2008/09 are going to be miniscule at best (and they will be less rosy than the 2008 numbers). In fact, you should focus on the 2008 numbers. THESE ARE THE BEST NUMBERS SUFFOLK HAS PROBABLY EVER HAD. YOU WON'T HAVE THE SAME ODDS, BUT SINCE YOU ARE AN ETERNAL OPTIMIST, YOU SHOULD JUST LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS.

Also, what pre-law school student who is choosing between schools isn't all over the latest USNews rankings. I am starting to doubt you OP. If I was in your shoes I would have paid the $10 bucks for the online version the night it came out. I would have been investigating the statistics for the schools I was accepted at midnight, when the latest rankings was released. Hell, I am a 3rd year lawyer and I still find these rankings intriguing. How could you not have been able to get the latest rankings yet?

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:08 pm

DCnative wrote:I do love how everyone has such a vested interest in this thread, as if they're getting so riled up over something that doesn't matter to them in the slightest. For real, you guys crack me up.

Who is riled up? Most people just chime in with their thoughts (which you asked for, last time I checked), and then when you respond with some stupid comment, they respond back and shoot you down. Not sure how that constitutes being "riled up." Also, a lot of us are just sick and tired of the deceptiveness of law schools and we don't like seeing more naive 0Ls get sucked in and mislead.

What cracks me up is that the person with six-figures on the line for a shitty law degree is not all that invested in this decision.

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:12 pm

cayerjt wrote:William Mitchell is actually a great choice if you plan to settle down in MN. For those of you who laugh at WM, ask yourself if you would have laughed in the face of a former CJ? (I know it was St. Paul College of Law then, but still, he would have benchslapped you.)

He = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_E._Burger

This is actually a great point. OP, you should definitely make 6-figure, major life decisions based on one WM graduate who was nominated to SCOTUS 42 years ago. So don't worry about getting those most recent USNWR job stats; they're all bogus anyways. I'd just go on Wikipedia and figure out which schools have had SCOTUS CJs, and narrow your search down that way.

Maybe you can even clerk for Justice Burger if you get good grades! That would be super sweet.

Good luck!

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thecilent
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby thecilent » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:
cayerjt wrote:William Mitchell is actually a great choice if you plan to settle down in MN. For those of you who laugh at WM, ask yourself if you would have laughed in the face of a former CJ? (I know it was St. Paul College of Law then, but still, he would have benchslapped you.)

He = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_E._Burger

This is actually a great point. OP, you should definitely make 6-figure, major life decisions based on one WM graduate who was nominated to SCOTUS 42 years ago. So don't worry about getting those most recent USNWR job stats; they're all bogus anyways. I'd just go on Wikipedia and figure out which schools have had SCOTUS CJs, and narrow your search down that way.

Maybe you can even clerk for Justice Burger if you get good grades! That would be super sweet.

Good luck!

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:15 pm

DCnative wrote:And bullying should matter to me why? I appreciate the honest, well-founded responses, even if they aren't positive. The bullies? Heck no.

No one is bullying you. Telling you what you do not want to hear =/= bullying. If you think this is bullying, you should probably find a new career path.
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