Suffolk or William Mitchell??

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cayerjt
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby cayerjt » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:16 pm

romothesavior, did you get punched a lot in high school? :lol: I'm kidding, but yes I do agree it is one graduate. I am just trying to make the point that there is a difference between PEOPLE and this isn't COMPLETELY dependent on institution. Maybe just 90%....

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observationalist
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby observationalist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:16 pm

aliarrow wrote:For Suffolk class of 2009:
80.2% Employed 9 Months Out
65% of those employed are in JD Required
93.3% of those are employed full time

= 48.64% chance of landing a job as a full time attorney 9 months after graduation (I don't think this figure includes Doc Review type jobs, these jobs are in another category).

480 Grads.
233 End up as lawyers.

Not really great odds, but it's possible. The odds are still stacked in favor of you not becoming a lawyer after graduation.


I need to caution you on a few of the assumptions you're making. First, schools (not graduates) get to make the final determination as to whether or not a JD is required, especially when graduates don't provide all of the answers to the NALP/ABA surveys. It's fair to assume that at least some of the "JD Required" jobs weren't necessarily the case... someone reported working for a firm and the school hastily recorded them as JD Required without inquiring further. Also, doc review jobs (which you often get through a legal temp agency) are in fact JD/bar passage required, and schools are keen to count them as employed in firms even though the company paying them is a temp business. The percentages of graduates that are taking these temp agency jobs right now can be very high. Essentially, everyone who successfully passes a bar exam and doesn't have a job lined up at graduation is faced with two options to use their JD: 1) purchase malpractice insurance, join a mentorship program, and attempt to go solo, or 2) work for a legal temp agency getting doc review assignments. The first provides for some chance of upward mobility but the second is essentially a dead end.

There's more trickery afoot you should know about. Schools are supposed to report the employment status for graduates as of February 15th, but we've heard a number of complaints from people who assert they were unemployed on that date but had previously picked up some sort of job. Allegedly, the school counted those graduates as employed. A legitimate reading of the guidelines suggests a graduate could work for a temp agency and be considered "FT" so long as the position was a 30+ hr/week gig and lasted at least through the week of February 15th. And if the school's career services advisors are ignoring the rules because they know there's no oversight, a one-week stint at any time prior to February 15th could also land a graduate in the employed-FT-law firm category.

The dangerous stuff about these statistics is that 1) they are often wrong or manipulated and 2) they are presented in a way that makes your average applicant with optimism bias and a belief in their own exceptionalism assume away the risks by thinking they can be in whatever sizable 'successful' portion of the graduating class is advertised. It's one thing to know that law schools are blurring the ethical line in presenting statistics and another to try and figure out exactly what the outcomes look like. That's why we encourage people to demand the underlying employment data.

Finally, be very careful when projecting your odds based on 2009 placement data. A 48% chance of using your JD to do legal work of any nature back in 2009 (the very best year in legal hiring) needs to be discounted for the realities of the new hiring market. As I said before, absent the school voluntarily sharing the 2010 data with you, a risk-averse applicant would be wise to reduce this percentage by perhaps half.

Doing that, your question now becomes: "Do I want to take on $ZZZ,ZZZ of debt and give up three years doing something else in order to have a 24% chance of getting some sort of legal job, which includes doc review, temp work of 30+ hours or more, solo practitioners (with or without mentorship programs to get started out), and other jobs that probably aren't a decent use of my abilities or a good way to satisfy my interests?" This is discounting the other reality yet to be discussed, which is that nepotism plays a significant part in boosting the top placement statistics at lower-ranked schools. Some people who attend these schools are facing virtually zero risk because they have a family firm or business waiting for them on the other side, yet schools take the credit for all outcomes regardless of how an outcome came about. So you need to lower this percentage even more to account for the fact that some graduates already had jobs lined up due to family connections and in no way had to worry about what law school they attended. You might be comfortable with a 1 in 2 chance of getting legal work, but a 1 in 5? If you are still willing to accept that risk, then by all means go.

One more thing and I'll stop: when asking for the employment data, I would also ask if the school has any new programs in the works for preparing people for solo practice. I was speaking with a career services dean a few weeks ago from another school who told me they were adapting their school's education model after seeing that about 22 graduates went into solo practice last year. You can always have solo practice as your back-up plan, provided you gain enough experience and business sense during or before law school to know how to start out on your own, and provided you can save some of your loan checks or otherwise get some financial cushion to support you in the six months between graduation/licensing + the amount of time it will take to recruit some paying clients. You just need to be prepared for this possibility ahead of time so that you can go that route if it's the only one open to you other than temp work.

I'm looking forward to hearing about the responses from the schools.

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romothesavior
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:19 pm

cayerjt wrote:romothesavior, did you get punched a lot in high school? :lol: I'm kidding, but yes I do agree it is one graduate. I am just trying to make the point that there is a difference between PEOPLE and this isn't COMPLETELY dependent on institution. Maybe just 90%....

Yes, I got punched a lot. Stuffed in lockers by the big mean jocks on the football team. I cried a lot and my mom had to send me to a different high school because of the bullying.

Your psychoanalysis of me and everyone else ITT is stunning. After all, those who actually know a thing or two about law school and the legal market must be huge nerds with no real life friends, amirite?

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:22 pm

observationalist wrote:
aliarrow wrote:For Suffolk class of 2009:
80.2% Employed 9 Months Out
65% of those employed are in JD Required
93.3% of those are employed full time

= 48.64% chance of landing a job as a full time attorney 9 months after graduation (I don't think this figure includes Doc Review type jobs, these jobs are in another category).

480 Grads.
233 End up as lawyers.

Not really great odds, but it's possible. The odds are still stacked in favor of you not becoming a lawyer after graduation.


I need to caution you on a few of the assumptions you're making. First, schools (not graduates) get to make the final determination as to whether or not a JD is required, especially when graduates don't provide all of the answers to the NALP/ABA surveys. It's fair to assume that at least some of the "JD Required" jobs weren't necessarily the case... someone reported working for a firm and the school hastily recorded them as JD Required without inquiring further. Also, doc review jobs (which you often get through a legal temp agency) are in fact JD/bar passage required, and schools are keen to count them as employed in firms even though the company paying them is a temp business. The percentages of graduates that are taking these temp agency jobs right now can be very high. Essentially, everyone who successfully passes a bar exam and doesn't have a job lined up at graduation is faced with two options to use their JD: 1) purchase malpractice insurance, join a mentorship program, and attempt to go solo, or 2) work for a legal temp agency getting doc review assignments. The first provides for some chance of upward mobility but the second is essentially a dead end.



One more thing and I'll stop: when asking for the employment data, I would also ask if the school has any new programs in the works for preparing people for solo practice. I was speaking with a career services dean a few weeks ago from another school who told me they were adapting their school's education model after seeing that about 22 graduates went into solo practice last year. You can always have solo practice as your back-up plan, provided you gain enough experience and business sense during or before law school to know how to start out on your own, and provided you can save some of your loan checks or otherwise get some financial cushion to support you in the six months between graduation/licensing + the amount of time it will take to recruit some paying clients. You just need to be prepared for this possibility ahead of time so that you can go that route if it's the only one open to you other than temp work.

I'm looking forward to hearing about the responses from the schools.


US News provides a breakdown though with a separate category for jobs that "Aren't considered part of a career path", and for JD Preferred Jobs. Most of the lower tier schools seem to have either a very high % (20-30%) in 'Not a career path' or JD Preferred but Working Part-Time, I was assuming that one of these places are where the Doc Review types jobs are categorized.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby FeelTheHeat » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:26 pm

I think the OP should consider Nova. Or Barry.

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:30 pm

cayerjt wrote:I find this discussion to be disheartening. Is it true lawyers are bitter due to their profession, or is it more likely many have been the same assholes all along? Maybe the "PUSSIES" were the children who were ridiculed daily, but THEY knew they could DOMINATE their taunters in chess. It has always sucked to be a nerd but THANK GOD for the faceless forums on which they can vent!

While biglaw interviews are obtained with great numbers, I firmly believe law students are more than products of their institutions. WE ARE ALL REAL PEOPLE. If you are heading to a T14 with "$$$" I would suggest you adopt a humble attitude. Many would kill to be in your position, so please, do not brag so snobbishly. If you do, I myself will always picture you as a little bitch. You were the kid that was punched in the face daily and probably had a sinking feeling in your stomach every day walking into high school (YOU know who you are). With all of that "$$$" you are going to save/make you should enroll in a self defense course. IMHO, I would advise this because if you run your snobbish mouth around the wrong person, you WILL get KTFO. ("KTFO" is open for interpretation.) (Avoid opening your mouth in front of Marines)

William Mitchell is actually a great choice if you plan to settle down in MN. For those of you who laugh at WM, ask yourself if you would have laughed in the face of a former CJ? (I know it was St. Paul College of Law then, but still, he would have benchslapped you.)

He = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_E._Burger

While WM can be a great choice under certain circumstances, I personally wouldn't go at sticker. I've heard of people receiving a 50% scholarship with below 160 on their LSAT and if you have no undergrad debt/a little financial help... would it be the worst thing to graduate with 75k in loans?

Consider a backup plan. The top 10% is tricky to land in even if you go to a TT/TTT school. Do you have a strong work ethic or a vat of adderall to swallow? At the very least, think about what would happen if you defaulted on a loan. Do you have someone who would/could bail you out? If you can answer yes to these questions, WM is a respectable choice in MN. By the lay person, you will certainly be treated like a smartypants.

Also, you could learn how to sell something. Selling yourself is the first step to selling your soul to the right firm. That is essentially what we all plan to do. @keepingperspective


There are so many issues in here that need responses.

1. If you find this thread disheartening, you probably should avoid the law. It is a nasty place to be. People will try to cut you (or your client) down at every corner. Be warned. And luckily for us "pussies," it is all about the mind once you've left high school. No one really cares how much you can bench press and whether you were the start wide receiver on some middling high school football team. I must admit that you're views towards bullying are quite astonishing and generally show a lack of compassion in general. Luckily, many of those nerds in high school have surpassed their tormentors in terms of how adults view a successful life - namely better careers.

2. This whole forum interprets being realistic with being condescending. It isn't. In fact, this forum needs more of it. Enough with the fallacy that everything will be just rosy if you go to some TTT law school. This board is filled with students who likely don't have what it takes to be lawyers self-congratulating each other on getting into schools like Suffolk and WM. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules and yes, some TTT grads go on to well paid careers. The problem, is that for every 1 graduate that does, there are 50 graduates that don't ever find legal jobs.

3. Warren Burger went to school ages ago. There was no USNews back then to rank the schools and ensure that pre-law students were informed. There has been a tremendous change in the way that employers see law school students since the advent of USNews. Do you think that if Burger was a pre-law student today he would go to William Mitchell. Of course not. Moreover, the number of law schools has dramatically increased and the number of law students has increased. When Burger attended law school, simply attending law school was an accomplishment. There wasn't nearly as many lawyers back then as there is today. So comparison to Burger is no good in this scenario. Find me someone that has graduated in the last 20 years becoming incredibly successful and I'll perhaps consider changing my mind.

4. Consider a back-up plan! YES!!! Go to Suffolk/WM for the first year. If you don't knock it out of the park, cut your losses and quit. You'll probably feel like you've "failed," but in reality you've probably made the best financial decision you've made in a long time.

Guest21
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby Guest21 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:36 pm

I'm currently a 1L at WM and can say that I've had a good experience so far.

WM does have a great reputation in the Twin Cities. The region does have too many (4) law schools, but if you look around different law firms' websites, you'll find that WM grads are very well represented. I really don't know about the stats related to how deep law firms hire from different schools. Some say 10%...or 15% for WM, but that's if you want to do Biglaw. It's pretty hard to say what the current hiring stats are...numbers that get thrown out are limited to certain law firms or sectors. What cannot be disputed, however, is that WM has the largest alumni base of attorneys in the Twin Cities. Whether a big alumni base is helpful or not is another question, but it is something you can count on. I don't know about the Boston market personally, but it sounds like Suffolk representation is not as great.

Personal experience - I did well my first semester and am splitting my 1L summer as summer associate at a big firm and a medium firm. From having attended numerous networking event, job interviews, and general conversations with non-lawyers, WM definitely has a good reputation and is well recognized in the Twin Cities by people who aren't in the legal field.

I would think a lot about where you would like to work after graduation. Both Boston and Twin Cities have a lot of law schools, so the market will be tough regardless whether you attend Suffolk or WM, but you will have a better shot if you stay in the city where you went to school.

You should think about what areas of law you're interested in. WM has good programs in IP and public interest, so it would be a good choice if you're especially interested in those areas.

I would also think a lot about cost. More $ the better of course. For me, this would be a deciding factor if all else is equal.

I wouldn't put too much stock in WM's ranking drop. Not that rankings are not important, but WM was never a top 100 school prior to last year when they made 98. My personal opinion is that most schools after #80 are relatively close together in reality anyways. WM has never emphasized US news ranking, even when they made the top 100. When I visited the school prior to enrolling, none of the administrators tried to sell me on the fact that WM is a up and coming school and that they made the top 100. WM knows its place as a reputable, established, and generally unranked regional school, and they are definitely behind the U of Minn overall. The 30 spot drop this year makes it look worse than it is. I would look at it like this: the school didn't get worse from last year, it's just that the school did especially well the year before.

As for the environment, I haven't felt the ultra-competitiveness that often gets associated with law school. Students definitely want to do well, but I haven't heard of anyone sabotaging other students or anything like that. I've had an easy time making friends, and faculty members are all very open to chatting with students. The St. Paul area is great...WM campus is located close to all the Grand Avenue restaurants/bars/shops. The snow/winter will kick your ass...but it's probably not that much worse than Boston.

As for St. Thomas, I just know what I've heard from people. They have been throwing a lot of $ for faculty and scholarships. I don't really know if it's a good or bad thing. Good facilities and faculty is of course important, but if a lot of students get scholarships, then they probably have to compete pretty hard to keep their scholarships. From talking to different people from different schools, I've picked up a sense of resentment towards St. Thomas for entering the legal education game when the Twin Cities just cannot support 4 law schools.

As for the Catholic thing, you can probably find some useful information online. I believe there was an issue a few years ago where some professors were forced out or left on their own due to them not agreeing with Catholic values imposed through school policies. There were also student protests too I think. That said, this would not have a direct impact on the quality of legal education you would receive. But if environment is important to you, then it is something to consider.

I'll be glad to answer any other questions. Good luck with your decision.

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:44 pm

Guest21:

Congrats on doing well. What's the feeling among the rest of your class? You said you did well (so I assume you're top 10-15%).

Everything that us "naysayers" have been saying is confirmed in this thread. You do well at WM, and you'll have opportunities. I just think we need to be a bit more realistic what happens to the kids at 50% and 75% percentiles. What are they doing (or not doing)?

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paratactical
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby paratactical » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:45 pm

Guest 21 - do you have a scholarship? If so, how much did you get and what are the stipulations?

MidlawMyth
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby MidlawMyth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:06 pm

Guest21 wrote:I'm currently a 1L at WM and can say that I've had a good experience so far.

WM does have a great reputation in the Twin Cities. The region does have too many (4) law schools, but if you look around different law firms' websites, you'll find that WM grads are very well represented. I really don't know about the stats related to how deep law firms hire from different schools. Some say 10%...or 15% for WM, but that's if you want to do Biglaw. It's pretty hard to say what the current hiring stats are...numbers that get thrown out are limited to certain law firms or sectors. What cannot be disputed, however, is that WM has the largest alumni base of attorneys in the Twin Cities. Whether a big alumni base is helpful or not is another question, but it is something you can count on.
So bright eyed and bushy tailed, reading straight from the brochure. This summer's OCI is when reality sets in.

Guest21
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby Guest21 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:33 pm

MidlawMyth wrote:
Guest21 wrote:I'm currently a 1L at WM and can say that I've had a good experience so far.

WM does have a great reputation in the Twin Cities. The region does have too many (4) law schools, but if you look around different law firms' websites, you'll find that WM grads are very well represented. I really don't know about the stats related to how deep law firms hire from different schools. Some say 10%...or 15% for WM, but that's if you want to do Biglaw. It's pretty hard to say what the current hiring stats are...numbers that get thrown out are limited to certain law firms or sectors. What cannot be disputed, however, is that WM has the largest alumni base of attorneys in the Twin Cities. Whether a big alumni base is helpful or not is another question, but it is something you can count on.
So bright eyed and bushy tailed, reading straight from the brochure. This summer's OCI is when reality sets in.


I'm surprised to see this comment. I thought I was pretty realistic in my assessment. I didn't claim that hiring prospect at WM is great, I just posted what my personal experience has been. In fact, I said that I wasn't sure about current hiring statistics and admitted that the Twin Cities market is oversaturated. I qualified my alumni base statement by saying that whether a big alumni base is helpful is up to you. I don't claim to know the future, I'm just stating undisputed facts that WM is a legitimate and reputable law school, and that it has a big alumni base.

As for other questions...

Alumniguy - I don't know what my rank is exactly because that stat is not provided until the end of whole 1st year. My guess is that I'm in the top 20%. As for the rest of the class, I can only offer anecdotal evidence from students that I know personally. I know one student that is probably average, and he has a summer job lined up through a family connection. I know another student that is definitely in the bottom 3rd of the class, and he is currently law clerk at the company that he used to work for full-time in another capacity. I have heard of others that have been able to get 1L summer positions (both paid and unpaid) through connections. Basically and not surprisingly, connections will be important for students not at the top of the class.

When I interviewed with a mid size firm, the hiring partner made a statement that there seem to be good 1L summer opportunities this year because he had received several offer rejections from students taking opportunity elsewhere.

Again, these are all just based on personal experience and people that I have talked to personally. I'm positive there are a lot of students (especially those below average) that are still looking for opportunities. Also, whether these summer opportunities are reflective of the full-time hiring market is up to you to decide. I would think there's some correlation...

paratactical - I get to keep my full scholarship if i maintain 2.80

MidlawMyth
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby MidlawMyth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:41 pm

Law school alumni don't give two shits about each other. Best of luck to you if you think your chances of landing a job are increased even 5% because of this.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:52 pm

Guest21 wrote:paratactical - I get to keep my full scholarship if i maintain 2.80


I cannot begin to explain the fallacies here.

Guest21
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby Guest21 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:58 pm

MidlawMyth wrote:Law school alumni don't give two shits about each other. Best of luck to you if you think your chances of landing a job are increased even 5% because of this.


Maybe...although I don't think having a good alumni base only helps in directly landing a job. In deciding which law school to go to, it's helpful to know that a school has been producing quality lawyers for many years and that many WM graduates have made it. Big alumni base also means a good source of donation for the school to continue providing a quality education and student services. All these things indirectly contribute to landing a job.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:05 pm

Here come the law students at said schools claiming the school is amazing and everyone gets biglaw. lol.

There was a biglaw partner on the Discuss Your School board the other day saying you had to be one of the top students in your class at WM to get biglaw. And that is Minnesota biglaw, not east coast biglaw.

Yeah, WM is a GREAT idea. Same with Suffolk.

Retake.

MidlawMyth
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby MidlawMyth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:07 pm

Guest21 wrote:
MidlawMyth wrote:Law school alumni don't give two shits about each other. Best of luck to you if you think your chances of landing a job are increased even 5% because of this.


Maybe...although I don't think having a good alumni base only helps in directly landing a job. In deciding which law school to go to, it's helpful to know that a school has been producing quality lawyers for many years and that many WM graduates have made it. Big alumni base also means a good source of donation for the school to continue providing a quality education and student services. All these things indirectly contribute to landing a job.
All of those things also contribute to rankings in UNWR, yet WM is still horribly ranked. Why the disconnect?

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Here come the law students at said schools claiming the school is amazing and everyone gets biglaw. lol.

There was a biglaw partner on the Discuss Your School board the other day saying you had to be one of the top students in your class at WM to get biglaw. And that is Minnesota biglaw, not east coast biglaw.

Yeah, WM is a GREAT idea. Same with Suffolk.

Retake.


Did Guest21 ever say you don't have to be at the top of your class to get BigLaw?

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 pm

OK - I am certainly not calling Guest 21 FLAME, but after re-reading her/his post I am rather skeptical.

I just now realized that Guest21 is a 1L, which means that he managed to get multiple offers from firms as s/he is supposedly splitting the summer between two firms. This seems highly, highly unlikely. First, 1L hiring is extremely rare ITE. Back pre-ITE, firms had a ton of cash and would throw money at 1Ls that they normally wouldn't be able to get as a 2L summer (because the 2L would have better options) and hope that the 1L really like the firm and would come back (in reality, hardly any 1Ls return to the firm they summered at as a 1L). Second, 1L hiring is difficult at Harvard, let alone WM. Third, I've never heard of a single 1L splitting her/his summer. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it certainly is NOT the norm (many firms have even stopped allowing 2Ls to split their summer for what its worth).

If we accept Guest21's post as legitimate, s/he is definitely MUCH higher than 20% of the class. These types of opportunities aren't available to 20% of the class - try maybe 1 or 2 students per class.

The family connection anecdotes may be accurate, but to the average law school student they are meaningless. Most students don't have a family law firm to turn to when they can't find a summer associate position nor can they go back to their pre-law school job and work compliance (which if I am reading Guest21's post correctly this is an unpaid position, so not that desirable anyway).

alumniguy
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pm

aliarrow wrote:
Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Here come the law students at said schools claiming the school is amazing and everyone gets biglaw. lol.

There was a biglaw partner on the Discuss Your School board the other day saying you had to be one of the top students in your class at WM to get biglaw. And that is Minnesota biglaw, not east coast biglaw.

Yeah, WM is a GREAT idea. Same with Suffolk.

Retake.


Did Guest21 ever say you don't have to be at the top of your class to get BigLaw?


No but he has implied that s/he is top 20% only - yet managed to get a biglaw summer spot, as a 1L!!!!

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vanwinkle
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
DCnative wrote:I would normally be inclined to agree with you, vanwinkle, but a lot of these law school grads do not do their research beforehand.

See, you say that like you've done enough research, but then you make statements like this:

DCnative wrote:Guess what alumniguy? I'm going to law school because I'm over 90% sure I want to practice law.

My point was, schools like Suffolk are not good schools for people who want to practice law. The statistical odds of getting a legal job after graduating with a JD from Suffolk or many similar schools is very low. If you had truly done your research, and were acting rationally on that, you would be aware of the low odds and not be joining the ranks of those assuming that you are somehow going to be able to beat them.

Yes, it's possible you'll succeed. But you're not acting like you accept the reality that it's more than 50% likely you will not, and that's a high risk to be taking given that it costs over $100K and three years of your life. Are you really prepared for the realistic possibility of not outshining your classmates, no prospects of legal employment whatsoever, and the knowledge that you could've been working wherever you ended up already without the crushing debt load?

It does not sound like it. Instead, you keep talking like you're special or you'll beat the odds or something, and if you'd "done the research" you'd know how foolish that kind of attitude can be. That's why people are almost universally disagreeing with you.

OP didn't respond to this when I posted it, so I'm helping him not accidentally overlook it by posting it again.

aliarrow
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:13 pm

MidlawMyth wrote:Law school alumni don't give two shits about each other. Best of luck to you if you think your chances of landing a job are increased even 5% because of this.


There is a natural proclivity towards liking alumni of a common school. It's just basic psychology, and most hiring partners seem to want to help out an alum from their own law school. So I don't get the ragging on alumni networks.

ETA: Look up the study "How much do I love thee? Let me count the Rs" if you want actual research regarding liking those with something simple in common.
Last edited by aliarrow on Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:17 pm

vanwinkle wrote:OP didn't respond to this when I posted it, so I'm helping him not accidentally overlook it by posting it again.


It's obvious that the OP is going to do well, because his UG academic record has been nothing short of stellar and law school is exactly like UG.

MidlawMyth
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Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby MidlawMyth » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:17 pm

BTW does anyone have a ballpark figure on the number of Minneapolis BIGLAW SA positions per year?

firemed
Posts: 1195
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby firemed » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:
cayerjt wrote:romothesavior, did you get punched a lot in high school? :lol: I'm kidding, but yes I do agree it is one graduate. I am just trying to make the point that there is a difference between PEOPLE and this isn't COMPLETELY dependent on institution. Maybe just 90%....

Yes, I got punched a lot. Stuffed in lockers by the big mean jocks on the football team. I cried a lot and my mom had to send me to a different high school because of the bullying.

Your psychoanalysis of me and everyone else ITT is stunning. After all, those who actually know a thing or two about law school and the legal market must be huge nerds with no real life friends, amirite?



Damn it romo.... you aren't supposed to admit it.


Also, this thread is full of lulz.

OP: Your best choice is to not go to law school. Your second best choice is WM.

I love how all these low post count people, just getting ready to apply to LS or who just found TLS after their cycle are suddenly defending/championing the idea that somehow people are going to beat the odds, or that a TTT can be a wise investment. You aren't likely to beat the odds (that is why they are called odds), and a TTT is a risky investment. Period. It might work out for you, but it probably won't.

To all you low post count people: if we seem like douches it is because we have seen/heard y'alls arguments 5 million times already... and after watching people going to T30s suffer and fail to get jobs, we just aren't that impressed by the arguments that somehow T2/T3 people have even mildly decent prospects unless they are going to a strong regional with strong ties to the area.


ETA: quote from a thread elsewhere on this board with name redacted:

Is anyone else out there freaking out over no 2L summer job prospects? I'm T-14, top 50%. Had a few callbacks after OCI and nothing. Applied for every federal and unpaid gig I could find and had time to apply for...Nada.
Last edited by firemed on Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Guest21
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:23 pm

Re: Suffolk or William Mitchell??

Postby Guest21 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:37 pm

MidlawMyth - WM has been solid in the Twin Cities market despite never ranking well in US news. I'm not sure how US news weigh different factors, but I would think national reputation is a component. WM is definitely a regional school and all I'm claiming is that they've done well in the Twin Cities market. This is why I suggested to OP that he needs to seriously consider where he wants to practice. If he's going to stay in Twin Cities after attending WM, then he'll have a better chance.

alumniguy - I'm legit. probably nothing I can say to convince you...but i am. You're right that it's hard to get SA positions and to split summer. Well i worked pretty hard and I interviewed well because I have a couple years of prior work experience. Not sure what else to say..

Slevin Kelevra - i am definitely not claiming that everyone out of WM can get biglaw (and yes you're right, it's MN biglaw...definitely different from east coast). You still have to work hard and still have to do well. Like I said, I'm not sure what my rank is. I could be higher than 20%, but I would be surprised if I'm higher than 10%.

MidlawMyth - I don't know the number of Minneapolis BIGLAW SA positions per year. The firm I will be at is hiring about 10 i think...




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