ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

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Mesqueunclub
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ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Mesqueunclub » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:25 pm

Hey everyone, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the thread title given the following:

-I'm aiming for Tampa. I have strong ties to the area and good connections in the legal market.

-ND is ~$20k cheaper than Emory over all three years. ND COA= ~$95k, Emory COA= ~$115k. I'd be taking out loans to cover these amounts.

-As far as my goals, I'm not biglaw or bust. But I'd definitely like to have that as an option if I do well enough.

My understanding so far is that the difference between the two is pretty negligible since I already have strong ties to my target market, even though Emory historically places better into Florida.

Which of these 2 would allow me to have lower grades/rank and still be competitive for the top firms in Tampa? And if you choose Emory, do you think it's a big enough gap to justify an extra $20k in loans?

I'd really appreciate replies that focus on just these 2 schools and not any others.

Thanks!

Edit: Added in COA amounts for both schools.
Last edited by Mesqueunclub on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BlueDiamond
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby BlueDiamond » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:28 pm

I know youd appreciate only answers on these 2 schools.. but UF or FSU are probably better bets than either of these for Florida.. if youre ties are really as strong as you make them sound then I'd go to the best school that gave me a full ride

to answer your question I'd say Emory purely due to geography... I'd assume they place better in Florida though I can't back that up with any evidence

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Mesqueunclub
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Mesqueunclub » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:35 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:I know youd appreciate only answers on these 2 schools.. but UF or FSU are probably better bets than either of these for Florida.. if youre ties are really as strong as you make them sound then I'd go to the best school that gave me a full ride

to answer your question I'd say Emory purely due to geography... I'd assume they place better in Florida though I can't back that up with any evidence


Thanks for the response.

I hear ya about UF and FSU. But there's a good reason why I asked people to ignore them-- I didn't apply to FSU (personal preference), and I had to withdraw from UF because they wouldn't extend my April 1st deadline so I could visit ND and Emory.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:49 pm

How much is the total cost for each?

Assuming they are both affordable to you, which I know they aren't, I would vote Emory. It's in the region you want to practice in - that's worth more than not being in the region you want to practice. How much more is hard to calculate.

Then again, if you have a guaranteed job, you should just go to the cheapest school you can.

Omerta
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Omerta » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:09 pm

I go to Emory right now (also from Florida). Just a heads up, Emory has a blanket policy against negotiating aid money so you're stuck with what you got. Feel free to PM me if you have particular questions about the school--I will be at ASW as well.

If you want to go back to Florida for sure, then I would definitely go to Emory. Florida is an insular market, going out of state for any reason is going to be viewed with skepticism except for the miami white shoes. I started reaching out to firms in Tampa/Orlando/Jax/Ft. Lauderdale and they definitely were very focused on my ties to Florida. More than one person straight-up asked me why I didn't go to UF. I've lived in Florida my whole life and go to school one state up; I can't imagine they'd view going to ND as a plus. The thought process would probably be "we're his/her backup firm in case s/he strikes out in Chicago."

One other thing to consider is your debt load. There are not that many firms that pay equivalent to market. Excluding Miami, you've got (1) Grey Robinson (2) Lowndes (3) Holland & Knight (3) Greenberg Trauig (4) Baker Hostetler (5) Carelton Fields and that's about it for firms with a larger national presence. I don't think any of those firms took more than 4. Not a lot of spots on the high end of the pay scale. If you had to pick a second choice for your market, which one would you rather be in?

But at least with Emory in Tampa you would have alumni who could go to bat for you if you were a borderline candidate. You may be engaging in a bit of tunnel vision--ask yourself which school you would be happy finishing median. If the answer is neither, then don't go. I hope that helps.

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Mesqueunclub
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Mesqueunclub » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:13 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:How much is the total cost for each?

Assuming they are both affordable to you, which I know they aren't, I would vote Emory. It's in the region you want to practice in - that's worth more than not being in the region you want to practice. How much more is hard to calculate.

Then again, if you have a guaranteed job, you should just go to the cheapest school you can.


ND COA= ~$95k
Emory COA= ~$115k

I definitely don't have a guaranteed job, but I'll have some good networking opportunities due to the places I've worked and family.

There's no doubt Emory has a huge advantage geography wise. But since I have ties to the area and I'll be spending my summers working in Tampa, I'm really wondering how much of a role school location would even matter in my situation. Do you think in this context the geography advantage would be cancelled out?

Thanks for your insight.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:32 pm

Mesqueunclub wrote:ND COA= ~$95k
Emory COA= ~$115k

I definitely don't have a guaranteed job, but I'll have some good networking opportunities due to the places I've worked and family.

There's no doubt Emory has a huge advantage geography wise. But since I have ties to the area and I'll be spending my summers working in Tampa, I'm really wondering how much of a role school location would even matter in my situation. Do you think in this context the geography advantage would be cancelled out?

Thanks for your insight.


I would go as far as to say Emory is worth the difference here, as Notre Dame doesn't really have a fall back option for people who can't find jobs back where they have ties to (unlike Emory).

As you already know, most students in any given law school ranked outside the T14 will strike out at OCI (even during a good year). As a result, you would have to mass mail your resume to large/mid/small law firms, government, and/or PI. More of these types of employers in Florida would be familiar with Emory than Notre Dame. This fact alone will help out a lot. The fact that Emory its developing its reputation in Atlanta is icing on the cake - an insurance in case you are either 1) locked out of FL or 2) can't find any jobs you want in FL.

I can't think of any reasonable reason to choose Notre Dame here except for the $20,000 difference. And yes, for your situation, Emory is worth $20,000 more than Notre Dame.

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Mesqueunclub
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Mesqueunclub » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:35 pm

Omerta wrote:I go to Emory right now (also from Florida). Just a heads up, Emory has a blanket policy against negotiating aid money so you're stuck with what you got. Feel free to PM me if you have particular questions about the school--I will be at ASW as well.

If you want to go back to Florida for sure, then I would definitely go to Emory. Florida is an insular market, going out of state for any reason is going to be viewed with skepticism except for the miami white shoes. I started reaching out to firms in Tampa/Orlando/Jax/Ft. Lauderdale and they definitely were very focused on my ties to Florida. More than one person straight-up asked me why I didn't go to UF. I've lived in Florida my whole life and go to school one state up; I can't imagine they'd view going to ND as a plus. The thought process would probably be "we're his/her backup firm in case s/he strikes out in Chicago."

One other thing to consider is your debt load. There are not that many firms that pay equivalent to market. Excluding Miami, you've got (1) Grey Robinson (2) Lowndes (3) Holland & Knight (3) Greenberg Trauig (4) Baker Hostetler (5) Carelton Fields and that's about it for firms with a larger national presence. I don't think any of those firms took more than 4. Not a lot of spots on the high end of the pay scale. If you had to pick a second choice for your market, which one would you rather be in?

But at least with Emory in Tampa you would have alumni who could go to bat for you if you were a borderline candidate. You may be engaging in a bit of tunnel vision--ask yourself which school you would be happy finishing median. If the answer is neither, then don't go. I hope that helps.


Wow, really helpful post. I appreciate it.

The bolded is definitely something I hadn't considered. Do you think that's something I could clear up by having a 1L job in Tampa? Or do you think they would still be uneasy

@Aberzombie: Thanks for the follow-up. You made a lot of good points for me to think about.

treeey86
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby treeey86 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 pm

Some florida firms recruit from Emory at OCI. I dont know if the same is done for ND.

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ndirish2010
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:14 am

FYI there is not one Florida firm currently signed up for ND 2011 OCI.

However, with strong ties in the Tampa market, the OCI deficiency might not matter. ND will open up quite a few secondary markets as well as possibly Chicago if you do very well. Whether you would ever want to be in any of these markets would be a question worth asking yourself. Or would you rather be somewhere else in the south if you don't land Tampa.

There are quite a few people from Florida in the 1L class right now here at ND. They are all planning on going back and for the most part have managed to secure summer employment in the area. I think most of them are from south of you, and I also know that this is anecdotal and only 1L stuff, but you might find it helpful.

I'm PMing you the ND OCI list so far...PM me if you have any questions.

Omerta
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Re: ND vs Emory for FL; strong ties

Postby Omerta » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:36 pm

Mesqueunclub wrote:
Wow, really helpful post. I appreciate it.

The bolded is definitely something I hadn't considered. Do you think that's something I could clear up by having a 1L job in Tampa? Or do you think they would still be uneasy

@Aberzombie: Thanks for the follow-up. You made a lot of good points for me to think about.


Well you can try, but no Tampa firms (to my knowledge) take 1Ls. Carlton Fields never returned my phonecalls though haha. 1L job doesn't really hold any weight for anything. Just be aware that the onus is on you to prove why you want to practice in a given region. Ties make it more believable, but you're still going to draw questions about it. Assuming great grades, you could try for a district court spot and that's where the Middle District's main USAO office is.

ndirish2010 wrote:FYI there is not one Florida firm currently signed up for ND 2011 OCI.
I'm PMing you the ND OCI list so far...PM me if you have any questions.


To elaborate off this, you're going to have to make a bigger effort to reach out to Tampa/Florida firms because they won't come to you. I think all the firms I mentioned came to Emory's OCI last year. I don't have the list on me though--I'm sure lowndes and Greenberg are coming back. Remember that these schools are both REGIONAL. The importance of region can get lost in the "#24 v. #22" bickering that happens here. I would never encourage someone who wanted to practice in the midwest to come to Emory over ND or UIUC. IMO the only truly national schools are HYSCC. Figure out how bad you want to practice in Tampa, how likely it is you could change your mind, and if you did where you may want to go.




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