I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

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Flips88
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Flips88 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:so if you graduated UG with a liberal arts major and don't want to work/can't get a job at starbucks, would law school still be a bad investment?


If you can't get a job at Starbucks or find gainful employment, I think there is something wrong with you (unless you live in bumfucknowheresville where there are very few jobs). Considering that you are the source of the problem, I don't think law school is going to change that.

TBF, the economy is just really shitty and some menial jobs look at college grads with good resumes as overqualified. At least, that's why I tell myself Target rejected me to restock shelves.

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thelaststraw05
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby thelaststraw05 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:04 pm

FWIW, I am a 3.46/171 and got $15,000 at Michigan.

HTH.

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:08 pm

Flips88 wrote:TBF, the economy is just really shitty and some menial jobs look at college grads with good resumes as overqualified. At least, that's why I tell myself Target rejected me to restock shelves.


The economy is really shitty, but if you can't get a minimum wage job then you really aren't trying hard enough imo.

ajr
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby ajr » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:12 pm

While I agree that it is not reasonable to think that a 160k job out of school is granted with a JD, I don't understand the love for MBA on this forum. People do top MBAs all the time after 5-10 years of engineering (these are the people I know), and very small percentage actually end up making big money on Wall Street. Fewer still stick on with that job after 2 years. Most top MBAs do management consulting and strategy where the pay is not nearly as high.

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Flips88
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Flips88 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
Flips88 wrote:TBF, the economy is just really shitty and some menial jobs look at college grads with good resumes as overqualified. At least, that's why I tell myself Target rejected me to restock shelves.


The economy is really shitty, but if you can't get a minimum wage job then you really aren't trying hard enough imo.

True. I guess I never stooped to applying for fast food or anything. Luckily, real jobs came through.

@bartleby: McDonald's is having a major hiring day in a couple weeks! :P

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:14 pm

ajr wrote:While I agree that it is not reasonable to think that a 160k job out of school is granted with a JD, I don't understand the love for MBA on this forum. People do top MBAs all the time after 5-10 years of engineering (these are the people I know), and very small percentage actually end up making big money on Wall Street. Fewer still stick on with that job after 2 years. Most top MBAs do management consulting and strategy where the pay is not nearly as high.


I don't think any of the intelligent posters on TLS are actually in love with MBAs (unless said MBA was from a top program but that is arguably harder to get than a top JD program).

ajr
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby ajr » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:15 pm

bk1 wrote:
ajr wrote:While I agree that it is not reasonable to think that a 160k job out of school is granted with a JD, I don't understand the love for MBA on this forum. People do top MBAs all the time after 5-10 years of engineering (these are the people I know), and very small percentage actually end up making big money on Wall Street. Fewer still stick on with that job after 2 years. Most top MBAs do management consulting and strategy where the pay is not nearly as high.


I don't think any of the intelligent posters on TLS are actually in love with MBAs (unless said MBA was from a top program but that is arguably harder to get than a top JD program).


That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:16 pm

ajr wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ajr wrote:While I agree that it is not reasonable to think that a 160k job out of school is granted with a JD, I don't understand the love for MBA on this forum. People do top MBAs all the time after 5-10 years of engineering (these are the people I know), and very small percentage actually end up making big money on Wall Street. Fewer still stick on with that job after 2 years. Most top MBAs do management consulting and strategy where the pay is not nearly as high.


I don't think any of the intelligent posters on TLS are actually in love with MBAs (unless said MBA was from a top program but that is arguably harder to get than a top JD program).


That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.

Oh boy.

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:17 pm

ajr wrote:That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.



Maybe it depends, but I still think in general top MBA is harder than top JD. A top MBA is going to require good work exp whereas a top JD is going to require a high LSAT. I think it's far easier to get the prerequisite LSAT than to get the prerequisite work exp.

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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bartleby » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:19 pm

Flips88 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Flips88 wrote:TBF, the economy is just really shitty and some menial jobs look at college grads with good resumes as overqualified. At least, that's why I tell myself Target rejected me to restock shelves.


The economy is really shitty, but if you can't get a minimum wage job then you really aren't trying hard enough imo.

True. I guess I never stooped to applying for fast food or anything. Luckily, real jobs came through.

@bartleby: McDonald's is having a major hiring day in a couple weeks! :P


I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:20 pm

bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.

bartleby
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bartleby » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.


what is this, above the law

ajr
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby ajr » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
ajr wrote:That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.



Maybe it depends, but I still think in general top MBA is harder than top JD. A top MBA is going to require good work exp whereas a top JD is going to require a high LSAT. I think it's far easier to get the prerequisite LSAT than to get the prerequisite work exp.


Harder for you is not harder for me (quite literally). I have great work experience in engineering, and I see my colleagues get into Wharton and Kellogg all the time (I mean 2-3 of them a year).

I'm not sure many of them (a) have a great undergrad GPA (b) can ace the LSAT however hard they tried. It's just a different exam - their reading/ logic skills just aren't that great.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.
So why are we all making this investment again?

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Flips88
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Flips88 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:23 pm

bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.

Microcosm of all of TLS: People going to law school telling everyone they talk to not to go to law school.

bartleby
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bartleby » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:24 pm

Flips88 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.

Microcosm of all of TLS: People going to law school telling everyone they talk to not to go to law school.


I don't know how I feel about it. A lot of successful, practicing lawyers say this too. Is it because they wished they pursued their dream or it really just sucks that badly? IDK.

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Flips88
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Flips88 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:25 pm

ajr wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ajr wrote:That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.



Maybe it depends, but I still think in general top MBA is harder than top JD. A top MBA is going to require good work exp whereas a top JD is going to require a high LSAT. I think it's far easier to get the prerequisite LSAT than to get the prerequisite work exp.


Harder for you is not harder for me (quite literally). I have great work experience in engineering, and I see my colleagues get into Wharton and Kellogg all the time (I mean 2-3 of them a year).

I'm not sure many of them (a) have a great undergrad GPA (b) can ace the LSAT however hard they tried. It's just a different exam - their reading/ logic skills just aren't that great.

FWIW, I have a friend that got wait listed/rejected at all the t-14s he applied to, but got into MIT's MBA program

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:25 pm

ajr wrote:Harder for you is not harder for me (quite literally). I have great work experience in engineering, and I see my colleagues get into Wharton and Kellogg all the time (I mean 2-3 of them a year).

I'm not sure many of them (a) have a great undergrad GPA (b) can ace the LSAT however hard they tried. It's just a different exam - their reading/ logic skills just aren't that great.


I understand that there are exceptions. My point is that it is harder on average.

For HYS you'll need a great GPA, but for the rest, a 3.3-3.5 can easily get you something in the T10 with a good LSAT.

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:27 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
bk1 wrote:
bartleby wrote:I'm at work. My point was law school isn't the only thing that sucks. Maybe we should go around telling everyone not to go to college because it is suchhh a baddd investmentttt. There are armies of unemployed finance and engineer majors. Maybe we should all start up our own social networking sites and make "real" money.


Law school is one of worst investments out there.
So why are we all making this investment again?


Me? Wanting to be a lawyer after having spent a decent amount of time around them. Scholarships can mitigate the cost. Going to a good enough school can mitigate the risk.

I mean on average law school is a bad deal, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions (people with large scholarships, people going to good enough schools, people with certain goals and a school capable of reasonably getting them that, etc).

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bk1
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:28 pm

bartleby wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
bk1 wrote:Law school is one of worst investments out there.

Microcosm of all of TLS: People going to law school telling everyone they talk to not to go to law school.


I don't know how I feel about it. A lot of successful, practicing lawyers say this too. Is it because they wished they pursued their dream or it really just sucks that badly? IDK.


Lawyers are particularly unhappy bunch.

As for going to law school, I wouldn't tell people in the right circumstances not to go, but a lot of people, if not most who are contemplating law school, aren't in the right circumstances.

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rayiner
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:42 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
kapachino wrote:If you want models and bottles, get an MBA. Law ain't for you.

Except most MBA's make less than biglaw.
In the beginning, sure, no other degree but a JD can offer $160,000 to start in a field in which you have no experience. But longer term, especially when the chances of you making partner are taken into consideration, MBA would probably be a better choice.

But if you're ultimate point is that entrepreneurship/small business start-up is greater than either MBA and JD, then you're absolutely correct.


Startups are not a great way to make money. The number of founders who actually cash out is very small.

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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:42 pm

If you only want to make a lot of money over your career....

go to med school

or

go back to undergrad and do petroleum engineering. The class of 2010 made, on average $90,000 their first year out. After you get that degree, work for five years and then get an MBA. Because you have an undergrad degree in petroleum engineering, you really don't need to go to a top MBA - a regional one will do fine. Then you move to middle management or consulting and make ju$t dollaz. Models, bottles, and "slam pieces (when did this term become popular?)."

If those are not options,

I would say not law school. Many people on this site seem to have their heads in the clouds in terms of career prospects. Generally speaking, north of 90% of people who get big law in a given year won't make partner. In fact, many of them will be out within a year or two (by choice or otherwise). While people who get big law get a massive $$$ head start, 10-15 years out, the people who got big law are not in a better financial position than people who didn't get big law. The infamous exit options are only really available to people who go into certain areas, and even then, there is still fierce competition for these positions (most companies who are looking for a general counsel are looking for people with corporate law experience [finance, business planning, M&A, etc.]; note that there are specialty employers, like labor groups - which would look for someone with labor experience). Ultimately, a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they try to leave big law and get a cushy job at a corporation - thus generally speaking, if you aren't fired, you are just going to lateral to a smaller firm with marginally fewer hours and significantly less pay.

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Patriot1208
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:44 pm

ajr wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ajr wrote:While I agree that it is not reasonable to think that a 160k job out of school is granted with a JD, I don't understand the love for MBA on this forum. People do top MBAs all the time after 5-10 years of engineering (these are the people I know), and very small percentage actually end up making big money on Wall Street. Fewer still stick on with that job after 2 years. Most top MBAs do management consulting and strategy where the pay is not nearly as high.


I don't think any of the intelligent posters on TLS are actually in love with MBAs (unless said MBA was from a top program but that is arguably harder to get than a top JD program).


That really depends. I am fairly sure I can get into a top MBA program, but not into a top JD program. But a JD is what I want to do.

Are you saying management consulting pay isn't as high as a JD? Because that is wrong, management consulting at even a good firm, after MBA, will lead to much higher average pay. You are right that starting salary is lower than the 160k that is biglaw, but bonuses are much higher and once you are in at the post-mba level your partnership chances are much higher and exit options are going to be much higher paying in the long run.

Magnificent
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby Magnificent » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:52 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:I feel the need to point out that all only on a website like TLS do you people talking about being in the top 1% of lifetime earnings in one of the richest countries in the world as "not making that much". There certainly is a large gap between those at the very top and those who make the top 1% cut off, but it's still rich by any objective measure.

Depends on how you want to live. A couple hundred thousand in NYC is more than enough to live comfortably. But if you're goal is to live like a baller (private jet, phantom w/driver, 3000 sqft. penthouse apartment/upper east side townhouse), that isn't enough. It's all about what you consider "rich." At the tippy top of the 1%, sure, they are objectively rich. But making $500,000 isn't rich to everyone. Will it be comfortable? Yes. Will everyone be happy with it? No.


if an individual can't be happy with making 500k in a world where there are over 1 billion people who don't have clean drinking water then that person is a PSYCHOPATH

there is no reasonable person who doesn't think 500k is RICH in EVERY CONTEXT

sure you may not be as rich as Warren Buffet but your still f'in rich.

this line of thinking is the same as saying that the only fat kid at fat camp is the fattest one.....the rest aren't really fat

ajr
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Re: I want to make a lot of money. T1 with $$ or reapply

Postby ajr » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:54 pm

Are you saying management consulting pay isn't as high as a JD? Because that is wrong, management consulting at even a good firm, after MBA, will lead to much higher average pay. You are right that starting salary is lower than the 160k that is biglaw, but bonuses are much higher and once you are in at the post-mba level your partnership chances are much higher and exit options are going to be much higher paying in the long run.


Not sure if you are talking associate pay or partner pay. Mck, Bain, BCG and the like pay ~120-130 base for junior associates. And these are people who were typically making at least 100k before they started on their MBAs. The bonuses in management consulting are not very high, I've heard may be 50% for the real star performers (which means the average person makes much lesser). Long run - yes, the potential is probably higher with a top MBA.

Finance is a different game though - there 100-200% bonuses are more common.




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