USC or UCLA at equal cost?

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:32 pm

Redsgomarchingon wrote:I based the 6% on the most recent data: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

But yes, looking at past years, USC and UCLA have traded spots quite often and it's probably not reasonable to assume UCLA would place 6% higher in Biglaw for a second year in a row


They actually haven't traded NLJ250 spots for the few years prior to 2010. USC has been a decent amount ahead of UCLA from 2006 through 2009. Though UCLA held the top spot in 2005.

That being said, they are peers, I'm just being anal about the data.

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Redsgomarchingon
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Redsgomarchingon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:35 pm

bk1 wrote:
Redsgomarchingon wrote:I based the 6% on the most recent data: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

But yes, looking at past years, USC and UCLA have traded spots quite often and it's probably not reasonable to assume UCLA would place 6% higher in Biglaw for a second year in a row


They actually haven't traded spots in the few years prior to 2010. USC has been a decent amount ahead of UCLA from 2005 through 2009.

That being said, they are peers, I'm just being anal about the data.


The data I saw from 2005 showed UCLA ahead of USC by over 5 percentage points: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

Could you please cite your placement data for 2006-2009, which I havn't been able to find (2010 you're absolutely correct: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1)

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Redsgomarchingon wrote:The data I saw from 2005 showed UCLA ahead of USC by over 5 percentage points: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

Could you please cite your placement data for 2006-2009, which I havn't been able to find (2010 you're absolutely correct: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1)


You're right, I forgot 2005 was UCLA (which I edited in to my post before you posted lol). I can't find 2006 but:

2007 - USC(43.6), UCLA (39.1) - http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
2008 - USC (47.6), UCLA (42.4) - http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F% ... VbZ7Y_jEsQ
2009 - USC (41.3), UCLA (35.9) - http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

I guess I just have a gripe because I've seen at least a few times people on TLS say that UCLA > USC at equal cost when it simply isn't true. They are peers peers peers.

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Redsgomarchingon
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Redsgomarchingon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
Redsgomarchingon wrote:The data I saw from 2005 showed UCLA ahead of USC by over 5 percentage points: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

Could you please cite your placement data for 2006-2009, which I havn't been able to find (2010 you're absolutely correct: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1)


You're right, I forgot 2005 was UCLA (which I edited in to my post before you posted lol). I can't find 2006 but:

2007 - USC(43.6), UCLA (39.1) - http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
2008 - USC (47.6), UCLA (42.4) - http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F% ... VbZ7Y_jEsQ
2009 - USC (41.3), UCLA (35.9) - http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

I guess I just have a gripe because I've seen at least a few times people on TLS say that UCLA > USC at equal cost when it simply isn't true. They are peers peers peers.


thanks. very useful

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:46 pm

UCLA. Know several Los Angeles attorneys and a Federal Magistrate Judge in LA: all would recommend UCLA over USC. Sure it's anecdotal blah blah blah. I think the greater lay prestige carries even within LA. Keep in mind that UCLA has superior grad programs generally (med school, business school, PhD programs) some of which allow you to cross register and take classes with. Westwood, though overrated, is better than living in/near the hood. But overall save yourself the little-man syndrome that comes with a USC degree, forever feeling slighted by lay perception that UCLA is better.

krad
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby krad » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:50 pm

Cade McNown wrote:UCLA. Know several Los Angeles attorneys and a Federal Magistrate Judge in LA: all would recommend UCLA over USC. Sure it's anecdotal blah blah blah. I think the greater lay prestige carries even within LA. Keep in mind that UCLA has superior grad programs generally (med school, business school, PhD programs) some of which allow you to cross register and take classes with. Westwood, though overrated, is better than living in/near the hood. But overall save yourself the little-man syndrome that comes with a USC degree, forever feeling slighted by lay perception that UCLA is better.

As a former Bruin: <3 this.

JJDancer
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby JJDancer » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:05 pm

krad wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:UCLA. Know several Los Angeles attorneys and a Federal Magistrate Judge in LA: all would recommend UCLA over USC. Sure it's anecdotal blah blah blah. I think the greater lay prestige carries even within LA. Keep in mind that UCLA has superior grad programs generally (med school, business school, PhD programs) some of which allow you to cross register and take classes with. Westwood, though overrated, is better than living in/near the hood. But overall save yourself the little-man syndrome that comes with a USC degree, forever feeling slighted by lay perception that UCLA is better.

As a former Bruin: <3 this.

Hahaha I'm a GW alum that never applied to Georgetown (because I didn't like it as much) and now I forever have to deal with the following scenario:

"I went to college in DC"
other person: "ooh, Georgetown?"
Me: no... George washington..

Thanks for ur opinions guys, I'm only getting more confused by the minute lol. But I do appreciate it!

Arelikefoxes
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Cade McNown wrote:UCLA. Know several Los Angeles attorneys and a Federal Magistrate Judge in LA: all would recommend UCLA over USC. Sure it's anecdotal blah blah blah. I think the greater lay prestige carries even within LA. Keep in mind that UCLA has superior grad programs generally (med school, business school, PhD programs) some of which allow you to cross register and take classes with. Westwood, though overrated, is better than living in/near the hood. But overall save yourself the little-man syndrome that comes with a USC degree, forever feeling slighted by lay perception that UCLA is better.


Meh, lol, I'll bite. The opinions of your "several" attorneys and a judge are not supported by the facts. More SC grads in SoCal and LA end up in BigLaw and are just as likely to place in other sorts of legal opportunities. Furthermore, as a ex-Bruin myself, I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence (and general consensus of many others) supports a far superior alumni network and better school loyalty at USC than that "other" LA school. :wink:

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:18 pm

Arelikefoxes wrote:Meh, lol, I'll bite. The opinions of your "several" attorneys and a judge are not supported by the facts. More SC grads in SoCal and LA end up in BigLaw and are just as likely to place in other sorts of legal opportunities. Furthermore, as a ex-Bruin myself, I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence (and general consensus of many others) supports a far superior alumni network and better school loyalty at USC than that "other" LA school. :wink:


More? They are peers and they place comparably. How is this even a debate?

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:27 pm

bk1 wrote:
Redsgomarchingon wrote:UCLA has better job prospects, but only slightly. From all the statistics I've seen, UCLA may have around 6% better biglaw placement, and a few percentage points better in clerkships.


lolwut

USC has been consistently edging out UCLA in NLJ250 placement by around 5%+ for 4 out of the last 5 years. They also trade back and forth between who has a clerkship edge. Someone tried to argue that UCLA has more PI/gov people and USC has more firm people, I guess I can buy that as the reason USC seems to have an edge with biglaw. But 5% really isn't that big a difference so I'd chalk it up to chance.

In reality, these schools are peers in the truest sense of the word. So go to whichever one is cheapest. If they cost about the same then go to the one that you prefer.

Final Caveat: I haven't looked at their LRAPs to see if one is better than the other so maybe one has the edge in that department.


Sure, but UCLA outplaces with respect to Clerkships and Academia. And despite what PP said about loyalty (may be true), it seems hard to deny the lay prestige that UCLA has over USC.

Arelikefoxes
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:25 pm

bk1 wrote:More? They are peers and they place comparably. How is this even a debate?


I am not saying they are not comparable or peer schools. In fact, UCLA places better in other markets. However, stats re: SoCal employment show USC has the highest placement rate in that market of any school in the country (which is what Cade was discussing.)

Besides, we are all trying to be lawyers...what else do we do but debate and argue? :wink:

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:55 pm

Cade McNown wrote:Sure, but UCLA outplaces with respect to Clerkships and Academia. And despite what PP said about loyalty (may be true), it seems hard to deny the lay prestige that UCLA has over USC.


Lay prestige is meaningless. UCLA does not consistently outplace in regards to A3 clerkships (they seem to trade spots).

Oh and academia from either of UCLA/USC = lololololol

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glitter178
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby glitter178 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:59 pm

JJDancer wrote:
krad wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:UCLA. Know several Los Angeles attorneys and a Federal Magistrate Judge in LA: all would recommend UCLA over USC. Sure it's anecdotal blah blah blah. I think the greater lay prestige carries even within LA. Keep in mind that UCLA has superior grad programs generally (med school, business school, PhD programs) some of which allow you to cross register and take classes with. Westwood, though overrated, is better than living in/near the hood. But overall save yourself the little-man syndrome that comes with a USC degree, forever feeling slighted by lay perception that UCLA is better.

As a former Bruin: <3 this.

Hahaha I'm a GW alum that never applied to Georgetown (because I didn't like it as much) and now I forever have to deal with the following scenario:

"I went to college in DC"
other person: "ooh, Georgetown?"
Me: no... George washington..

Thanks for ur opinions guys, I'm only getting more confused by the minute lol. But I do appreciate it!


yes, but the above situation isn't exactly analogous. GW isn't GULC's peer school. when people ask where i'm going to school and I say USC or UCLA (b/c i haven't decided yet) I will consistently get a different response as to which is better, with the reasons why being completely rediculous and unsubstantiated "UCLA 'seems' more professional" "I knew a guy who went to UCLA who was an idiot" "USC is for kids who can't get into UCLA"

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:39 pm

.
Last edited by Cade McNown on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:42 pm

Cade McNown wrote:I realize that neither school places students directly into law professorships. I'm including students who do joint degrees as those pursuing and placing into "academia". Ucla's joint degree programs shit on USC's, again because one is a renowned research institution and the other really isn't.


This is pretty irrelevant to anybody who is not doing a joint degree program, aka the vast majority of people deciding between these schools.

Sure if you're considering a dual degree program then the prestige of the second degree comes into play, but since we are talking about just pure JDs, then you should be deciding based on the prestige of the law school. The prestige of the law schools in this case is equal.

Arelikefoxes
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:42 pm

Cade McNown wrote:Ucla's joint degree programs shit on USC's


Are you looking to go into academia? lol.

Also, only some degree programs rank better, and rarely by any substantial margin (USC also has programs in which they outrank UCLA.)

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:43 pm

bk1 wrote:Oh and academia from either of UCLA/USC


I realize that neither school places students directly into law professorships. I'm including students who do joint degrees as those pursuing and placing into "academia". Ucla's joint degree programs shit on USC's, again because one is a renowned research institution and the other really isn't.

Also, this is just in response to the USC>=UCLA for biglaw comments. I realize OP probably isn't considering a joint degree, only mean to suggest that relatively more UCLA students, so fewer care about biglaw prospects and there is a self-selection bias.

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:44 pm

Cade McNown wrote:Also, this is just in response to the USC>=UCLA for biglaw comments. I realize OP probably isn't considering a joint degree, only mean to suggest that relatively more UCLA students, so fewer care about biglaw prospects and there is a self-selection bias.


I think anybody who claims that USC > UCLA or UCLA > USC is full shit.

Arelikefoxes
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:47 pm

Cade McNown wrote:fewer care about biglaw prospects and there is a self-selection bias.


Unclear that this is true. Who is to say more people go to UCLA don't want biglaw? Seems a little "two attorneys and a judge."

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:47 pm

bk1 wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:Also, this is just in response to the USC>=UCLA for biglaw comments. I realize OP probably isn't considering a joint degree, only mean to suggest that relatively more UCLA students, so fewer care about biglaw prospects and there is a self-selection bias.


I think anybody who claims that USC > UCLA or UCLA > USC is full shit.


So you think USNWR is full of shit :wink:

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:48 pm

Cade McNown wrote:So you think USNWR is full of shit :wink:


lol

Arelikefoxes
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Arelikefoxes » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:49 pm

bk1 wrote:I think anybody who claims that USC > UCLA or UCLA > USC is full shit.


+1, but it's WAY more fun than paying attention in ConLaw. :wink:

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Cade McNown » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:51 pm

Arelikefoxes wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:fewer care about biglaw prospects and there is a self-selection bias.


Unclear that this is true. Who is to say more people go to UCLA don't want biglaw? Seems a little "two attorneys and a judge."


Agree, though I think it's plausible if not probable. Also, if you go back through the comments you'll see I haven't stated anywhere that UCLA > USC. I've only suggested that its got the better reputation (whether or not that's deserved).

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bk1
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Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:53 pm

Cade McNown wrote:Agree, though I think it's plausible if not probable. Also, if you go back through the comments you'll see I haven't stated anywhere that UCLA > USC. I've only suggested that its got the better reputation (whether or not that's deserved).


But better reputation implies better employment prospects since the legal field is prestige obsessed. Lay prestige may be greater, but I don't think legal prestige is drastically different between the two.

Curry

Re: USC or UCLA at equal cost?

Postby Curry » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:Agree, though I think it's plausible if not probable. Also, if you go back through the comments you'll see I haven't stated anywhere that UCLA > USC. I've only suggested that its got the better reputation (whether or not that's deserved).


But better reputation implies better employment prospects since the legal field is prestige obsessed. Lay prestige may be greater, but I don't think legal prestige is drastically different between the two.

I think there is outside of california. Inside california, especially in LA, the two are equal.




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