Columbia vs Vandy ($)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Columbia sticker vs. Vandy scholly

Columbia @ Sticker (COA: 200k)
123
76%
Vandy w/ 65k (COA: 100k)
39
24%
 
Total votes: 162

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drylo
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby drylo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:48 pm

rad law wrote:
Emma1 wrote:Don't think that is the point of the question posed by OP but maybe a Vandy student can answer that.To my knowledge they don't rank but sometimes schools that dont rank still give out statistics on the class where educators or on this case employers can figure it out. They can also see your grades. I dont know what Vandy does in particular. I think someone who is bright enough to get into Columbia can do well at Vandy if they put the hours in. This wasn't meant a put down to Vandy. I was just there and really liked the school.


I know someone who got into Harvard who is ballin' out here. I know someone who got into Columbia who's doing okay. You can't really predict based on LSAT/GPA or "hard work." Everyone works hard. It's who writes a better exam (a skill no one teaches you) on the day that counts.

Vandy releases a top 20% cutoff, and although we don't know the median, you can do some math and figure it at about a 3.15-3.17 or so. From there you can sorta figure out where you are. Employers can too, since they know your GPA. But no, we don't rank.


All true. But to clarify, Vandy releases only a top 20% cutoff per semester--there is no cumulative top 20% cutoff.

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Grizz
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Grizz » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:51 pm

drylo wrote:
rad law wrote:
Emma1 wrote:Don't think that is the point of the question posed by OP but maybe a Vandy student can answer that.To my knowledge they don't rank but sometimes schools that dont rank still give out statistics on the class where educators or on this case employers can figure it out. They can also see your grades. I dont know what Vandy does in particular. I think someone who is bright enough to get into Columbia can do well at Vandy if they put the hours in. This wasn't meant a put down to Vandy. I was just there and really liked the school.


I know someone who got into Harvard who is ballin' out here. I know someone who got into Columbia who's doing okay. You can't really predict based on LSAT/GPA or "hard work." Everyone works hard. It's who writes a better exam (a skill no one teaches you) on the day that counts.

Vandy releases a top 20% cutoff, and although we don't know the median, you can do some math and figure it at about a 3.15-3.17 or so. From there you can sorta figure out where you are. Employers can too, since they know your GPA. But no, we don't rank.


All true. But to clarify, Vandy releases only a top 20% cutoff per semester--there is no cumulative top 20% cutoff.


Good call. Should have mentioned that.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:56 pm

Columbia and it's not even close. If you want to work in the South (particularly) Atlanta you're going to be competing with a large contingent of grads from "good" Southern schools. There will be plenty of Vandy grads competing with you for 6 figure jobs. As such firms will not be digging very deep into Vandy. Frankly, after seeing what Southern firms expect at UVA/Duke I would never choose to go to Vandy over Columbia with ties to the South and anything less than a full ride at Vandy. My guess is that if you fall below the top 1/3 at Vandy you are in deep trouble in regards to getting a 6 figure job in a non Nashville Southern city. Southern firms will love a Columbia grad with Southern ties.

Some earlier post said that Southern firms love to be able to say that they have associates from "Harvard, Columbia, UVA, Duke etc." They're right......

"Each year, Bondurant Mixson & Elmore invites a few exceptional law students to participate in its summer program in Atlanta. The program has welcomed students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia...."


http://www.bmelaw.com/careers-summer.html

And don't get to hyped about the "we don't rank students" thing. For all intent and purposes the only school that doesn't rank students is Yale and maybe H/S and Boalt. Everywhere else it's very easy for an employer to figure out your class rank--and they will. If you're at a school that uses a 4.0 GPA scale (like Vandy) it's downright laughable to think that employers don't know your class rank.

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drylo
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby drylo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:03 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Columbia and it's not even close. If you want to work in the South (particularly) Atlanta you're going to be competing with a large contingent of grads from "good" Southern schools. There will be plenty of Vandy grads competing with you for 6 figure jobs. As such firms will not be digging very deep into Vandy. Frankly, after seeing what Southern firms expect at UVA/Duke I would never choose to go to Vandy over Columbia with ties to the South and anything less than a full ride at Vandy. My guess is that if you fall below the top 1/3 at Vandy you are in deep trouble in regards to getting a 6 figure job in a non Nashville Southern city. Southern firms will love a Columbia grad with Southern ties.

Some earlier post said that Southern firms love to be able to say that they have associates from "Harvard, Columbia, UVA, Duke etc." They're right......

"Each year, Bondurant Mixson & Elmore invites a few exceptional law students to participate in its summer program in Atlanta. The program has welcomed students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia...."


http://www.bmelaw.com/careers-summer.html

And don't get to hyped about the "we don't rank students" thing. For all intent and purposes the only school that doesn't rank students is Yale and maybe H/S and Boalt. Everywhere else it's very easy for an employer to figure out your class rank--and they will. If you're at a school that uses a 4.0 GPA scale (like Vandy) it's downright laughable to think that employers don't know your class rank.


OK. You are free to have an opinion, but why do you hate Vandy so much?

First of all, you picked a random 30-lawyer firm in Atlanta who says that they have hired at least one summer associate from Columbia and does not mention Vandy. That is a fantastic sample size--one small firm that probably hires one or two summer associates per year and has no lawyers from either Vandy or Columbia. It's entirely possible that they have never hired a summer associate from Vandy, which would explain Vandy's absence from that list. But what would that prove, exactly? (By the way, I like your strategic decision to cut off the list after UVA--I guess "Emory, Duke, the University of Georgia, and Georgia State University" didn't exactly fit your prestige-centered, anti-Vandy narrative...)

Incidentally, how about you look at some other Atlanta firms for hiring patterns. Check out Alston & Bird: http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... fd21&p=all vs. http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... d0de9cbe16

Also, nobody was getting "to [sic] hyped" about Vandy not ranking. The question was asked, and it was being answered.

Emma1
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Emma1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:41 pm

rad law wrote:
Emma1 wrote:Don't think that is the point of the question posed by OP but maybe a Vandy student can answer that.To my knowledge they don't rank but sometimes schools that dont rank still give out statistics on the class where educators or on this case employers can figure it out. They can also see your grades. I dont know what Vandy does in particular. I think someone who is bright enough to get into Columbia can do well at Vandy if they put the hours in. This wasn't meant a put down to Vandy. I was just there and really liked the school.


I know someone who got into Harvard who is ballin' out here. I know someone who got into Columbia who's doing okay. You can't really predict based on LSAT/GPA or "hard work." Everyone works hard. It's who writes a better exam (a skill no one teaches you) on the day that counts.

Vandy releases a top 20% cutoff, and although we don't know the median, you can do some math and figure it at about a 3.15-3.17 or so. From there you can sorta figure out where you are. Employers can too, since they know your GPA. But no, we don't rank.


Actually many admissions offices claim that a persons LSAT score is the best predictor of success in their first year of Law School.
Last edited by Emma1 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FiveSermon
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby FiveSermon » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:42 pm

Emma1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Emma1 wrote:Don't think that is the point of the question posed by OP but maybe a Vandy student can answer that.To my knowledge they don't rank but sometimes schools that dont rank still give out statistics on the class where educators or on this case employers can figure it out. They can also see your grades. I dont know what Vandy does in particular. I think someone who is bright enough to get into Columbia can do well at Vandy if they put the hours in. This wasn't meant a put down to Vandy. I was just there and really liked the school.


I know someone who got into Harvard who is ballin' out here. I know someone who got into Columbia who's doing okay. You can't really predict based on LSAT/GPA or "hard work." Everyone works hard. It's who writes a better exam (a skill no one teaches you) on the day that counts.

Vandy releases a top 20% cutoff, and although we don't know the median, you can do some math and figure it at about a 3.15-3.17 or so. From there you can sorta figure out where you are. Employers can too, since they know your GPA. But no, we don't rank.


Actually many admissions officers claim that a persons LSAT score is the best predictor of success in their first year of Law School.


Best predictor of success =/= Good indicator of success.

Emma1
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Emma1 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:48 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Columbia and it's not even close. If you want to work in the South (particularly) Atlanta you're going to be competing with a large contingent of grads from "good" Southern schools. There will be plenty of Vandy grads competing with you for 6 figure jobs. As such firms will not be digging very deep into Vandy. Frankly, after seeing what Southern firms expect at UVA/Duke I would never choose to go to Vandy over Columbia with ties to the South and anything less than a full ride at Vandy. My guess is that if you fall below the top 1/3 at Vandy you are in deep trouble in regards to getting a 6 figure job in a non Nashville Southern city. Southern firms will love a Columbia grad with Southern ties.

Some earlier post said that Southern firms love to be able to say that they have associates from "Harvard, Columbia, UVA, Duke etc." They're right......

"Each year, Bondurant Mixson & Elmore invites a few exceptional law students to participate in its summer program in Atlanta. The program has welcomed students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia...."
--LinkRemoved-- don't get to hyped about the "we don't rank students" thing. For all intent and purposes the only school that doesn't rank students is Yale and maybe H/S and Boalt. Everywhere else it's very easy for an employer to figure out your class rank--and they will. If you're at a school that uses a 4.0 GPA scale (like Vandy) it's downright laughable to think that employers don't know your class rank.


You are ignoring the debt load issue though.

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Grizz
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Grizz » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:58 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Emma1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Emma1 wrote:Don't think that is the point of the question posed by OP but maybe a Vandy student can answer that.To my knowledge they don't rank but sometimes schools that dont rank still give out statistics on the class where educators or on this case employers can figure it out. They can also see your grades. I dont know what Vandy does in particular. I think someone who is bright enough to get into Columbia can do well at Vandy if they put the hours in. This wasn't meant a put down to Vandy. I was just there and really liked the school.


I know someone who got into Harvard who is ballin' out here. I know someone who got into Columbia who's doing okay. You can't really predict based on LSAT/GPA or "hard work." Everyone works hard. It's who writes a better exam (a skill no one teaches you) on the day that counts.

Vandy releases a top 20% cutoff, and although we don't know the median, you can do some math and figure it at about a 3.15-3.17 or so. From there you can sorta figure out where you are. Employers can too, since they know your GPA. But no, we don't rank.


Actually many admissions officers claim that a persons LSAT score is the best predictor of success in their first year of Law School.


Best predictor of success =/= Good indicator of success.


This.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:42 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Emma1 wrote:
Actually many admissions officers claim that a persons LSAT score is the best predictor of success in their first year of Law School.


Best predictor of success =/= Good indicator of success.


This. The correlation is less than .3, and within a band of +/- has been calculated to be completely statistically insignificant (which is why they give you score bands on your score report). It only makes a difference over much larger differentials, and even then isn't very correlated.

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lastch2
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby lastch2 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:28 pm

as far as the debt goes, we (my future husband and i) sat down and decided to be a 1.5 income coupel after law school meaning 1/2 of my salary will go to debt repayment so there's that. thanks to everyone for the input, and does anyone have any links to data concerning lsat and 1st year success? i've heard that bantied about on this site, but what i've been told is that lsat predicts your success in finishing law school, not anything with gpa or grades

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lastch2
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby lastch2 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:30 pm

oh. and the guy in my picture is sheldon from big bang theory. although gender is irrelevant in the discussion, carry on.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby imchuckbass58 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:57 am

lastch2 wrote:as far as the debt goes, we (my future husband and i) sat down and decided to be a 1.5 income coupel after law school meaning 1/2 of my salary will go to debt repayment so there's that. thanks to everyone for the input, and does anyone have any links to data concerning lsat and 1st year success? i've heard that bantied about on this site, but what i've been told is that lsat predicts your success in finishing law school, not anything with gpa or grades


http://www.lsac.org/jd/pdfs/LSAT-Score- ... rmance.pdf

Highlights:

"Correlations between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades ranged from .00 to .56 (median is .35)."

"LSAC also reports the amount of measurement error associated with each test form, a concept known as the standard error of measurement (SEM). The SEM, which is usually about 2.6 points, indicates how close a test taker’s observed score is likely to be to his or her true score."

"The standard error of score differences provides some guidance as to the importance of differences between two scores. The standard error of score differences is approximately 1.4 times larger than the standard error of measurement for the individual scores."

In other words:
-Your true score is +/- 1.4 from the score you got
-You can't say anything meaningful about the difference between scores unless you got 1.4*2.6 = 3.6 more or less than another test taker
-Even when you can say something about the difference, the correlation is roughly 1/3 on average

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lastch2
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby lastch2 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:35 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
lastch2 wrote:as far as the debt goes, we (my future husband and i) sat down and decided to be a 1.5 income coupel after law school meaning 1/2 of my salary will go to debt repayment so there's that. thanks to everyone for the input, and does anyone have any links to data concerning lsat and 1st year success? i've heard that bantied about on this site, but what i've been told is that lsat predicts your success in finishing law school, not anything with gpa or grades


http://www.lsac.org/jd/pdfs/LSAT-Score- ... rmance.pdf

Highlights:

"Correlations between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades ranged from .00 to .56 (median is .35)."

"LSAC also reports the amount of measurement error associated with each test form, a concept known as the standard error of measurement (SEM). The SEM, which is usually about 2.6 points, indicates how close a test taker’s observed score is likely to be to his or her true score."

"The standard error of score differences provides some guidance as to the importance of differences between two scores. The standard error of score differences is approximately 1.4 times larger than the standard error of measurement for the individual scores."

In other words:
-Your true score is +/- 1.4 from the score you got
-You can't say anything meaningful about the difference between scores unless you got 1.4*2.6 = 3.6 more or less than another test taker
-Even when you can say something about the difference, the correlation is roughly 1/3 on average


Good to know, thanks

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BruceWayne
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:53 pm

drylo wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Columbia and it's not even close. If you want to work in the South (particularly) Atlanta you're going to be competing with a large contingent of grads from "good" Southern schools. There will be plenty of Vandy grads competing with you for 6 figure jobs. As such firms will not be digging very deep into Vandy. Frankly, after seeing what Southern firms expect at UVA/Duke I would never choose to go to Vandy over Columbia with ties to the South and anything less than a full ride at Vandy. My guess is that if you fall below the top 1/3 at Vandy you are in deep trouble in regards to getting a 6 figure job in a non Nashville Southern city. Southern firms will love a Columbia grad with Southern ties.

Some earlier post said that Southern firms love to be able to say that they have associates from "Harvard, Columbia, UVA, Duke etc." They're right......

"Each year, Bondurant Mixson & Elmore invites a few exceptional law students to participate in its summer program in Atlanta. The program has welcomed students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia...."


http://www.bmelaw.com/careers-summer.html

And don't get to hyped about the "we don't rank students" thing. For all intent and purposes the only school that doesn't rank students is Yale and maybe H/S and Boalt. Everywhere else it's very easy for an employer to figure out your class rank--and they will. If you're at a school that uses a 4.0 GPA scale (like Vandy) it's downright laughable to think that employers don't know your class rank.


OK. You are free to have an opinion, but why do you hate Vandy so much?

First of all, you picked a random 30-lawyer firm in Atlanta who says that they have hired at least one summer associate from Columbia and does not mention Vandy. That is a fantastic sample size--one small firm that probably hires one or two summer associates per year and has no lawyers from either Vandy or Columbia. It's entirely possible that they have never hired a summer associate from Vandy, which would explain Vandy's absence from that list. But what would that prove, exactly? (By the way, I like your strategic decision to cut off the list after UVA--I guess "Emory, Duke, the University of Georgia, and Georgia State University" didn't exactly fit your prestige-centered, anti-Vandy narrative...)

Incidentally, how about you look at some other Atlanta firms for hiring patterns. Check out Alston & Bird: http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... fd21&p=all vs. http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... d0de9cbe16

Also, nobody was getting "to [sic] hyped" about Vandy not ranking. The question was asked, and it was being answered.


You missed my entire point and you're using strawmans. In addition, you are too Vandy sensitive if you think that saying that it's a much better idea to go to Columbia (for someone with ties to the south) to get a 6 figure firm job in the South than it is to go to Vandy. That's not a knock on Vandy, it's just the truth. Firms will go much deeper into Columbia's class than they would Vanderbilt's.

I never said that Southern firms don't hire a lot from Vandy or any other Southern school; not only is that a serious strawman it's incredibly obvious that that would be a ridiculous claim. The focus of my point was the type of GRADES/class rank needed for working at these Southern firms from Vandy vs. Columbia (or for that matter from the local Southern schools).

Do you know the type of grades most of the kids from schools like Ga State, UGA, Emory, and to a lesser extent Vandy have that get hired by the 6 figure Southern firms? Most of the kids at the first 2 have GPAs deep into the top 10 percent (if not top 5 percent + law review). At Emory their not going to be too far outside of the top 20 percent (if that). And I'm not just talking about Bondurant (that was clearly supposed to be anecdotal evidence). At firms like King and Spalding, Alston and Bird, Jones Day, Kilpatrick Stockton, Mckenna Long etc. a Vandy grad below median is almost assuredly out of luck. For someone like the OP, who is clearly very interested/most concerned with getting a 6 figure firm job, going to Vandy with that expectation is VERY dangerous. Only if he can get a GPA well above the mean is he safe. Frankly, he'd probably need to be top 20 percent to truly be safe. The gap in rank that these Southern firms will require or a Columbia grad with ties as opposed to a Vandy grad is HUGE. And to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and unfair to the OP.


Finally you were really excited to show how many Vandy grads Alsotn hired as if that rebutted my point. Not only does that no rebut my point, it strengthens it considerably. I was arguing that the grades/honors you will need much higher honors/grades from Vandy than you will from Columbia. Many of the profiles in your link feature 1. People who only went to Vandy for undergrad which doesn't count and 2. Vandy Law grads with excellent work experience prior to law school and honors like law review.

The reality is that if the OP attends Vandy and receives a GPA below the top 1/3, let alone below median, he will have a very poor chance of getting a 6 figure firm job. This isn't true from Columbia.

Emma1
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Emma1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:41 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
drylo wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Columbia and it's not even close. If you want to work in the South (particularly) Atlanta you're going to be competing with a large contingent of grads from "good" Southern schools. There will be plenty of Vandy grads competing with you for 6 figure jobs. As such firms will not be digging very deep into Vandy. Frankly, after seeing what Southern firms expect at UVA/Duke I would never choose to go to Vandy over Columbia with ties to the South and anything less than a full ride at Vandy. My guess is that if you fall below the top 1/3 at Vandy you are in deep trouble in regards to getting a 6 figure job in a non Nashville Southern city. Southern firms will love a Columbia grad with Southern ties.

Some earlier post said that Southern firms love to be able to say that they have associates from "Harvard, Columbia, UVA, Duke etc." They're right......

"Each year, Bondurant Mixson & Elmore invites a few exceptional law students to participate in its summer program in Atlanta. The program has welcomed students from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia...."






http://www.bmelaw.com/careers-summer.html

And don't get to hyped about the "we don't rank students" thing. For all intent and purposes the only school that doesn't rank students is Yale and maybe H/S and Boalt. Everywhere else it's very easy for an employer to figure out your class rank--and they will. If you're at a school that uses a 4.0 GPA scale (like Vandy) it's downright laughable to think that employers don't know your class rank.


OK. You are free to have an opinion, but why do you hate Vandy so much?

First of all, you picked a random 30-lawyer firm in Atlanta who says that they have hired at least one summer associate from Columbia and does not mention Vandy. That is a fantastic sample size--one small firm that probably hires one or two summer associates per year and has no lawyers from either Vandy or Columbia. It's entirely possible that they have never hired a summer associate from Vandy, which would explain Vandy's absence from that list. But what would that prove, exactly? (By the way, I like your strategic decision to cut off the list after UVA--I guess "Emory, Duke, the University of Georgia, and Georgia State University" didn't exactly fit your prestige-centered, anti-Vandy narrative...)

Incidentally, how about you look at some other Atlanta firms for hiring patterns. Check out Alston & Bird: http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... fd21&p=all vs. http://www.alston.com/professionals/Lis ... d0de9cbe16

Also, nobody was getting "to [sic] hyped" about Vandy not ranking. The question was asked, and it was being answered.


You missed my entire point and you're using strawmans. In addition, you are too Vandy sensitive if you think that saying that it's a much better idea to go to Columbia (for someone with ties to the south) to get a 6 figure firm job in the South than it is to go to Vandy. That's not a knock on Vandy, it's just the truth. Firms will go much deeper into Columbia's class than they would Vanderbilt's.

I never said that Southern firms don't hire a lot from Vandy or any other Southern school; not only is that a serious strawman it's incredibly obvious that that would be a ridiculous claim. The focus of my point was the type of GRADES/class rank needed for working at these Southern firms from Vandy vs. Columbia (or for that matter from the local Southern schools).

Do you know the type of grades most of the kids from schools like Ga State, UGA, Emory, and to a lesser extent Vandy have that get hired by the 6 figure Southern firms? Most of the kids at the first 2 have GPAs deep into the top 10 percent (if not top 5 percent + law review). At Emory their not going to be too far outside of the top 20 percent (if that). And I'm not just talking about Bondurant (that was clearly supposed to be anecdotal evidence). At firms like King and Spalding, Alston and Bird, Jones Day, Kilpatrick Stockton, Mckenna Long etc. a Vandy grad below median is almost assuredly out of luck. For someone like the OP, who is clearly very interested/most concerned with getting a 6 figure firm job, going to Vandy with that expectation is VERY dangerous. Only if he can get a GPA well above the mean is he safe. Frankly, he'd probably need to be top 20 percent to truly be safe. The gap in rank that these Southern firms will require or a Columbia grad with ties as opposed to a Vandy grad is HUGE. And to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and unfair to the OP.


Finally you were really excited to show how many Vandy grads Alsotn hired as if that rebutted my point. Not only does that no rebut my point, it strengthens it considerably. I was arguing that the grades/honors you will need much higher honors/grades from Vandy than you will from Columbia. Many of the profiles in your link feature 1. People who only went to Vandy for undergrad which doesn't count and 2. Vandy Law grads with excellent work experience prior to law school and honors like law review.

The reality is that if the OP attends Vandy and receives a GPA below the top 1/3, let alone below median, he will have a very poor chance of getting a 6 figure firm job. This isn't true from Columbia.

So what is your estimate for Columbia since you are throwing out figures for Vandy?

refusetolose
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby refusetolose » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:47 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The reality is that if the OP attends Vandy and receives a GPA below the top 1/3, let alone below median, he will have a very poor chance of getting a 6 figure firm job. This isn't true from Columbia.

I was wondering if any current students at Vandy can back this up.

By the way OP, they're both great schools but go to Columbia and call it a day. You won't regret it.

FiveSermon
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby FiveSermon » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:35 pm

Around 45%-50% of Vandy grads traditionally get biglaw jobs+article 3 clerkships.

refusetolose
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby refusetolose » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:45 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Around 45%-50% of Vandy grads traditionally get biglaw jobs+article 3 clerkships.

Where do Vandy grads that are below median and interested in working for a law firm end up? Do they make a 5 or 6 figure salary?

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Grizz
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:51 pm

refusetolose wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Around 45%-50% of Vandy grads traditionally get biglaw jobs+article 3 clerkships.

Where do Vandy grads that are below median and interested in working for a law firm end up? Do they make a 5 or 6 figure salary?


Call Vandy and ask them to see the list of where the class of 2010 got jobs. It's public. C/o 2010 had about 40% NLJ250 and AIII.

refusetolose
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby refusetolose » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:09 pm

Do you know or would anyone happen to know offhand?

WhoMe?
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby WhoMe? » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:26 pm


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drylo
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby drylo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:43 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You missed my entire point and you're using strawmans. In addition, you are too Vandy sensitive if you think that saying that it's a much better idea to go to Columbia (for someone with ties to the south) to get a 6 figure firm job in the South than it is to go to Vandy. That's not a knock on Vandy, it's just the truth. Firms will go much deeper into Columbia's class than they would Vanderbilt's.

I never said that Southern firms don't hire a lot from Vandy or any other Southern school; not only is that a serious strawman it's incredibly obvious that that would be a ridiculous claim. The focus of my point was the type of GRADES/class rank needed for working at these Southern firms from Vandy vs. Columbia (or for that matter from the local Southern schools).

Do you know the type of grades most of the kids from schools like Ga State, UGA, Emory, and to a lesser extent Vandy have that get hired by the 6 figure Southern firms? Most of the kids at the first 2 have GPAs deep into the top 10 percent (if not top 5 percent + law review). At Emory their not going to be too far outside of the top 20 percent (if that). And I'm not just talking about Bondurant (that was clearly supposed to be anecdotal evidence). At firms like King and Spalding, Alston and Bird, Jones Day, Kilpatrick Stockton, Mckenna Long etc. a Vandy grad below median is almost assuredly out of luck. For someone like the OP, who is clearly very interested/most concerned with getting a 6 figure firm job, going to Vandy with that expectation is VERY dangerous. Only if he can get a GPA well above the mean is he safe. Frankly, he'd probably need to be top 20 percent to truly be safe. The gap in rank that these Southern firms will require or a Columbia grad with ties as opposed to a Vandy grad is HUGE. And to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and unfair to the OP.


Finally you were really excited to show how many Vandy grads Alsotn hired as if that rebutted my point. Not only does that no rebut my point, it strengthens it considerably. I was arguing that the grades/honors you will need much higher honors/grades from Vandy than you will from Columbia. Many of the profiles in your link feature 1. People who only went to Vandy for undergrad which doesn't count and 2. Vandy Law grads with excellent work experience prior to law school and honors like law review.

The reality is that if the OP attends Vandy and receives a GPA below the top 1/3, let alone below median, he will have a very poor chance of getting a 6 figure firm job. This isn't true from Columbia.


You're right--I was pretty sloppy in just linking to those Alston & Bird rosters without checking to verify that those people all went to law school at Vandy/Columbia. I apologize for my laziness. If I had done a more thorough job, I would have found that there are only 37 Vandy Law alums at A&B in Atlanta. On the other hand there is one (ONE!) Columbia Law grad (who was on a journal and moot court board). Furthermore, while I didn't count them all up, I'd estimate that maybe half of the Vandy grads were on Law Review. (In fairness, there were also a pretty substantial number that were on secondary journals, but some were on no journal at all.) After looking at A&B's attorney list more closely, I think you might need to call up their managing partner (a Vandy Law guy) and gently remind him how inferior the Vandy grads he keeps hiring are.

Friendly tip (just so those Vandy partners down in Atlanta don't forget how much smarter you are than them): the plural of "straw man" is "straw men" (and it's two words).

By the way, I am not saying that OP should go to Vandy--I'm always very hesitant to tell somebody else where she should go. I'm just countering your Vandy hate.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:53 pm

drylo wrote:You're right--I was pretty sloppy in just linking to those Alston & Bird rosters without checking to verify that those people all went to law school at Vandy/Columbia. I apologize for my laziness. If I had done a more thorough job, I would have found that there are only 37 Vandy Law alums at A&B in Atlanta. On the other hand there is one (ONE!) Columbia law grad (who was on a journal and moot court board). Furthermore, while I didn't count them all up, I'd estimate that maybe half of the Vandy grads were on Law Review. (In fairness, there were also a substantial number that were on secondary journals, but some were on no journal at all.) After looking at A&B's attorney list more closely, I think you might need to call up their managing partner (a Vandy Law guy) and gently remind him how inferior the Vandy grads he keeps hiring are.

Friendly tip (just so those Vandy partners down in Atlanta don't forget how much smarter you are than them): the plural of straw man is straw men (and it's two words).

By the way, I am not saying that OP should go to Vandy--I'm always very hesitant to tell somebody else where she should go. I'm just countering your Vandy hate.


You're taking this too personally and you're letting that cloud your judgment. And I'm stunned that you would use an argument as ignorant as "there's only 1 Columbia grad at Alston and 37 at Vandy". Honestly, I'm just going to assume that's sarcasm. Particularly since I said that the OP should go to Columbia since he has ties to the South and because the firms will go DEEPER into Columbia's class (much deeper) than they will at Vandy. My point, and what the OP should be worried about, is that it will require much better grades/honors from Vandy than Columbia to get a firm job in the South if you have the prerequisite Southern ties. Honestly, from the logic that you're using (presumably sarcastically; since it's so obviously poor logic) it would be easier to get a job at a Southern firm from Vandy than from Yale. The reason that there's only 1 Columbia grad at Alston is because, unsurprisingly, most people who go to Columbia don't want to work in the South. Whereas most people who go to Vandy do. And Vandy hate? Seriously, you're just being immature with that one. Just because I point out that Columbia is a stronger school placement wise, doesn't mean I "hate" Vandy--that's ridiculous. If someone tells me Harvard is a stronger school placement wise than UVA I don't respond with "You UVA hater!". It's just the way it is. FYI the schools don't give a damn about us, so there's really no need to get so personally wrapped up in their reputations.

The other thing to consider is that Columbia LRAP is one of the best in the nation; only exceeded by the programs at HYS. While Vandy's is mediocre; that should be a huge deciding factor.

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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby drylo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:07 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
drylo wrote:You're right--I was pretty sloppy in just linking to those Alston & Bird rosters without checking to verify that those people all went to law school at Vandy/Columbia. I apologize for my laziness. If I had done a more thorough job, I would have found that there are only 37 Vandy Law alums at A&B in Atlanta. On the other hand there is one (ONE!) Columbia law grad (who was on a journal and moot court board). Furthermore, while I didn't count them all up, I'd estimate that maybe half of the Vandy grads were on Law Review. (In fairness, there were also a substantial number that were on secondary journals, but some were on no journal at all.) After looking at A&B's attorney list more closely, I think you might need to call up their managing partner (a Vandy Law guy) and gently remind him how inferior the Vandy grads he keeps hiring are.

Friendly tip (just so those Vandy partners down in Atlanta don't forget how much smarter you are than them): the plural of straw man is straw men (and it's two words).

By the way, I am not saying that OP should go to Vandy--I'm always very hesitant to tell somebody else where she should go. I'm just countering your Vandy hate.


You're taking this too personally and you're letting that cloud your judgment. And I'm stunned that you would use an argument as ignorant as "there's only 1 Columbia grad at Alston and 37 at Vandy". Honestly, I'm just going to assume that's sarcasm. Particularly since I said that the OP should go to Columbia since he has ties to the South and because the firms will go DEEPER into Columbia's class (much deeper) than they will at Vandy. My point, and what the OP should be worried about, is that it will require much better grades/honors from Vandy than Columbia to get a firm job in the South if you have the prerequisite Southern ties. Honestly, from the logic that you're using (presumably sarcastically; since it's so obviously poor logic) it would be easier to get a job at a Southern firm from Vandy than from Yale. The reason that there's only 1 Columbia grad at Alston is because, unsurprisingly, most people who go to Columbia don't want to work in the South. Whereas most people who go to Vandy do. And Vandy hate? Seriously, you're just being immature with that one. Just because I point out that Columbia is a stronger school placement wise, doesn't mean I "hate" Vandy--that's ridiculous. If someone tells me Harvard is a stronger school placement wise than UVA I don't respond with "You UVA hater!". It's just the way it is. FYI the schools don't give a damn about us, so there's really no need to get so personally wrapped up in their reputations.

The other thing to consider is that Columbia LRAP is one of the best in the nation; only exceeded by the programs at HYS. While Vandy's is mediocre; that should be a huge deciding factor.


Yeah you're probably right that, in general, you could probably have a slightly lower GPA at Columbia than at Vandy to be competitive for most jobs. I have never disputed that. What I thought was ludicrous was you citing some small firm in Atlanta to supposedly prove that OP should go to "Columbia and it's not even close." So I responded with a more representative sample of the Atlanta legal landscape. You were incredibly dismissive of Vandy and started talking about how firms would much rather have Columbia people. I am simply pointing out that I think you were way too dismissive of Vandy based on the huge presence that Vandy has in the South generally, and Atlanta in particular (because that's the market you chose in your example).

And, like I said, I'm really not trying to push OP to go to Vandy. I just don't feel like it was fair to cite some small firm with no Columbia people working there, etc., the way that you did. It's just not even close to a representative sample of law firms in Atlanta. But I don't disagree that there is obviously some benefit to going to Columbia--namely, a little bit of a GPA cushion (although it is probably less in some Southern markets than it is in NYC).

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Re: Columbia vs Vandy ($)

Postby TLSNYC » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:18 am

I think that OP should go to Vandy so that opens up a seat for me at Columbia :lol:

In all seriousness, though, I still cannot understand how this discussion is on its third page. CLS is the hands down winner.




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