Where should I go?

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cinephile
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Where should I go?

Postby cinephile » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:49 am

Hello all! I was hoping to get some outside perspective on where I should go next year. I'm still waiting to hear back from Cornell, but right now it looks like I'll be going to Minnesota (half scholarship), Boston University (half scholarship), or Ohio State (possibly full scholarship + small stipend). I'm from Ohio and never intended to live here all my life, but I'm so debt averse that if I get the full ride, I'd take it. But barring that, I'm having difficulty choosing between Minnesota and Boston. I've visited Minneapolis and Boston on vacations (couldn't make it to ASW) and had fun in both cities, but don't really know if either's a good fit for me. I've spent a lot of time in Chicago and could see myself living there, but don't know how likely it'd be to find work in Chicago if I went to Minnesota. Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling here, so I'll stop, just feel free to share your opinions. Thanks!
Last edited by cinephile on Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cinephile
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby cinephile » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:32 am

Oh, and if it's any help, I'm open to really any type of law. My goal used to be to do corporate law in an overseas branch of an American firm, but you never really know what you'll like until you try it.

Thanks again!

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cinephile
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby cinephile » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:19 am

bump

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:24 am

BU is the only reasonable response.

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cinephile
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby cinephile » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:41 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:BU is the only reasonable response.


Better job prospects?

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bk1
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:43 pm

BU has better job prospects so take it over UMN. But take OSU if they give you a full ride, the debt scares you, and you are okay with staying in Ohio.

BU with a half scholly isn't too bad.

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mcubberly
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby mcubberly » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:46 pm

BU if you don't get the Moritz, 100%. But good luck! If you wanted to, you could come back to Columbus after BU, or stay in the NE.

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Blindmelon
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:12 pm

mcubberly wrote:BU if you don't get the Moritz, 100%. But good luck! If you wanted to, you could come back to Columbus after BU, or stay in the NE.


Yea, I know at least 2 people going back to OH for firm jobs this summer. Its by no means a popular destination, but its possible from BU with ties.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:19 am

Minn and BU are pretty much peers, so take whichever is cheapest. Keep your non-dischargeable student debt down to keep your options open down the road.

If you get a full scholarship from OSU, take it.

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ndirish2010
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:52 am

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Minn and BU are pretty much peers, so take whichever is cheapest. Keep your non-dischargeable student debt down to keep your options open down the road.

If you get a full scholarship from OSU, take it.


BU- 30% NLJ placement...Minnesota- 11%.

Not peers.

alumniguy
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby alumniguy » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:13 am

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Minn and BU are pretty much peers, so take whichever is cheapest.


While Minn and BU may be "peers," I don't think you get get much more far apart in terms of schools thought to be "peers." The schools are both regional schools, with some national placement. BU is going to place a majority of their grads along the Eastern seaboard. Minn on the other hand, is going to place most of their grads in the Midwest. Yes, they are "equally" prestigious in terms of student quality and whatever other metrics USNews uses; but it still amazes me that pre-law school students give the USNews so much weight in making decisions.

OP is from Ohio (but doesn't necessarily want to stay in Ohio and would like the have the potential opportunity to work internationally - possibly for a large firm) and debt averse. OP hasn't provided much information in terms of additional information, so some questions need to be answered before one provide a thoughtful answer without regurgitating the same drivel to choose a school based on its USNews rank (albeit with some small consideration of debt). So, OP - do you have any ties to Minnesota or to Boston? Would you be okay with working in/around Boston? Would you be okay working in/around Minneapolis or the greater Midwest? Would you be okay working in/around Ohio? If you can't land a biglaw job, what do you see yourself doing and where? Any desire to do a clerkship?

Answers to these questions should be driving your analysis.

BU places many more students into "biglaw" than Minn (and Ohio) and they really AREN'T peer schools in this regard. BU is hands down leaps and bounds above Minn. Also, Minn likely places more of its grad in Minneapolis/Chicago biglaw - which likely have far less international practices than biglaw shops based in NYC, DC or even Boston for that matter.

I would also argue that Minn is probably more likely to get you a clerkship than at BU. Minn has less competition in its district than BU and Minn grads have been viewed highly by judges there. Again, this is likely to change over the years as currently sitting judges went to law school in the days before USNews started its rankings. USNews has greatly changed the way pre-law school students decide where to go to law school.

If OP doesn't really want to be in Minn, I would say the choice should be between Ohio and BU. Ohio would obviously be significantly cheaper, but it would also restrict OP's ability to potentially find a biglaw job. 100K in debt is a gamble on biglaw in the current environment, especially when most students at BU are probably gunning for biglaw. I would presume this isn't the case at Ohio (but I could be wrong). If OP does well at BU, doors to international work would certainly be open (and doors to biglaw would be wide open).

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cinephile
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby cinephile » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:34 am

Thank you, alumniguy for your thoughtful response. That was really helpful.

I'm not really interested in clerking. Biglaw sounds like a good option, but I suppose I have to actually experience it to see how intense it is/how long I can handle it. I'd like to consider PI work as well, but obviously that'd be easier if I went to school without any debt.

And I don't really have any ties outside of Ohio and Chicago -- and ultimately, I'd hope to end up in Chicago if I attended either UMN or OSU.

Thanks to all who all who answered. It looks like I'm leaning towards BU and OSU right now.

concurrent fork
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Re: Where should I go?

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:03 am

Do not count on going back to the midwest (esp. Chicago) from BU. It's of course possible, but that does not mean it is likely. There is a good chance that your employment options will be limited to New England and NYC.

alumniguy
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Re: Where should I go?

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:49 am

concurrent fork wrote:Do not count on going back to the midwest (esp. Chicago) from BU. It's of course possible, but that does not mean it is likely. There is a good chance that your employment options will be limited to New England and NYC.


I am not sure this is accurate. What likely happens to most students is that they take the easiest route to getting a job. So at BU, the easiest route is of course going to be NE/mid-Atlantic jobs. Firms in these geographic regions come to BU to recruit. There will be a few Chicago firms (or branches of Chicago firms) that recruit at BU. 95% of law school students are going to interview on campus if they can. Students will go on interviews, get callbacks and get offers. Once you have an offer, most students (i) are relieved and (ii) stop looking for other jobs with the same intensity they had prior to receiving an offer. So if a student has an offer in his pocket for a NYC firm, s/he may still send out some resumes to Chicago firms, but s/he then realizes that the better option may be the NYC firm because it isn't worth the extra time, effort and expense to find a job in Chicago. Add to that the fact that many firms that don't recruit on campus don't pay for student travel to interviews and most students are even more reluctant to continue their job search in a city that is geographically far from BU.

It comes down to a student's true desire to be in Chicago vs. getting a job. I would venture to guess that most students simply want a job and that takes priority over location.

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bk1
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Re: UMN vs OSU vs BU

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:25 pm

bk1 wrote:BU has better job prospects so take it over UMN. But take OSU if they give you a full ride, the debt scares you, and you are okay with staying in Ohio.

BU with a half scholly isn't too bad.


I'm actually going to amend my response and say that the number of people making 6 figures out of BU and UMN is pretty close (probably around 1/3 for BU and 1/4 for UMN) so pick the place that you prefer (Minnesota or Boston).

concurrent fork
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Re: Where should I go?

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:42 pm

alumniguy wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:Do not count on going back to the midwest (esp. Chicago) from BU. It's of course possible, but that does not mean it is likely. There is a good chance that your employment options will be limited to New England and NYC.


I am not sure this is accurate. What likely happens to most students is that they take the easiest route to getting a job. So at BU, the easiest route is of course going to be NE/mid-Atlantic jobs. Firms in these geographic regions come to BU to recruit. There will be a few Chicago firms (or branches of Chicago firms) that recruit at BU. 95% of law school students are going to interview on campus if they can. Students will go on interviews, get callbacks and get offers. Once you have an offer, most students (i) are relieved and (ii) stop looking for other jobs with the same intensity they had prior to receiving an offer. So if a student has an offer in his pocket for a NYC firm, s/he may still send out some resumes to Chicago firms, but s/he then realizes that the better option may be the NYC firm because it isn't worth the extra time, effort and expense to find a job in Chicago. Add to that the fact that many firms that don't recruit on campus don't pay for student travel to interviews and most students are even more reluctant to continue their job search in a city that is geographically far from BU.

It comes down to a student's true desire to be in Chicago vs. getting a job. I would venture to guess that most students simply want a job and that takes priority over location.

So the reason BU students generally don't get Chicago biglaw is because they are too lazy to travel and/or cannot afford a plane ticket? I have to disagree. Self selection obviously plays a role at every regional school, but that doesn't change the fact that many students who self-select into the local market would not have the same job opportunities elsewhere.

alumniguy
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Re: Where should I go?

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:00 pm

concurrent fork wrote:So the reason BU students generally don't get Chicago biglaw is because they are too lazy to travel and/or cannot afford a plane ticket? I have to disagree. Self selection obviously plays a role at every regional school, but that doesn't change the fact that many students who self-select into the local market would not have the same job opportunities elsewhere.


Well, let me put it this way. As someone who went to BC (comparable in all respects to BU) and who applied to Boston, NYC and midwest markets - let me explain what happened. At BU/BC, the NYC job fair is the first job fair of the year. It is before your 2L classes begin. I had lots of lots of first round interviews at the job fair (I think I filled up most of the day with interviews - around 8-9 or so). I got some callbacks that occurred while the BC on-campus interviews were happening. There aren't many Chicago/Midwest firms that interview on campus at BC. I struck out at my on-campus interviews for Boston/NE firms. In the mean time, I started receiving some offers from the NYC firms. After striking out in Boston (and before receiving offers from NYC firms), I decided to send my resume out to Chicago/Midwest firms. I got a few inquiries and had one interview set up with a firm that came to Boston to recruit at Harvard. That led to a callback back in the Midwest, but ultimately no offer.

At that point, I was faced with (i) just accepting one of my NYC offers or (ii) following up with the Chicago/Midwest firms regarding my resume and/or making a bigger push to send out more resumes. I chose to just accept the offer. Could I have made a concerted effort to push harder for Chicago/Midwest - yes I could have.

The point I am making is that law students with credentials good enough for biglaw options are funneled into the OCI program and MOST students get their jobs through the OCI process. What's the reason for this? Well, from my perspective it was primarily the ease of the process. I just did symplicity bidding and got some interviews. It is much harder to seek jobs on your own. It takes incredible amounts of work - and that is if the firms are located within the region. But if you are competitive for NE/Mid-Atlantic biglaw at BU, you are competitive at Chicago/Midwest firms. Is it guaranteed, no - but I would believe that most students once they find a job offer are reluctant to expend extra effort unless they are sure they want to ultimately be in another market.




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