Top Law Schools

UCLA is $90,000, Duke $70,000, Penn $60,000 and Columbia at sticker (probably). I would like to do government work, initially on the East Coast, though I am from California and would like to end up back in California eventually.

I went to the admitted students programs at Duke and Columbia and was very impressed with Duke. They were very welcoming and organized. Not so at Columbia. At the same time, I liked the other 0Ls I met at Columbia and was impressed with all the professors (naturally). I also passed through Penn and liked the school. I could see myself there as well. I visited all these schools with a +1 who will be moving with me. +1 was OK with all three, but expressed preference for Duke. We are from SoCal so UCLA would be the "safe choice", but although we see ourselves in California in the long term, we are looking for a change. Plus, there's rankings.

Thoughts appreciated!

If you want California, go to UCLA. If you want portability and are indecisive, CLS is your best bet. If you want the optimal employment prospects/money combo, go to Penn.

/ thread.

If I understand your post, UCLA is offering you $90,000, Duke $70,000 & Penn $60,000. What will your total COA be for each school. If you are a California resident, then UCLA should be substantially cheaper than the other three law schools. Showing scholarship amounts is a bit misleading since total COA might be dramatically different than the small differences among scholarship offers.

Duke. It's just as good as Penn (in terms of prospects and portability) and at a lower cost. Columbia is going to run you significantly more when you account for COL differences, and I just don't think it's worth THAT much more. Likewise, UCLA is cheaper but not THAT much cheaper when accounting for COL, and Duke is superior in placement.

Sorry, but prospects from Penn are worth more than the 10k higher scholly from Duke. Just check NJL250 for 2006-2010.

Also see summer associate data from 2006. Penn does quite a bit better among top NYC firms (and Duke has a lot of self-selection into NYC too, so its more apples to apples comparison).

Thanks for the input, I appreciate the thoughts. Here's some additional information re COA:

$50,000 personal savings
$30,000 from family. I went to undergrad largely on scholarship, so my parents have some left over funds from my college savings.

Which makes the following approx COAs:
UCLA: $20,000
Duke: $60,000 (dual degree means some extra costs)
Penn: $70,000
Columbia: $140,000

I agree UCLA should be substantially cheaper than the other three schools. The operative words there however are "should" and "substantially". Looking at projected cost increases, UCLA will be approaching $50,000/year by 2014. It is currently $40,616. Yes, cheaper than other schools with tuition at more of $45,000, but does that make up for the difference in prestige/ranking?

Thats a matter of how serious you are about being in Cali. If you are really Cali all the way, you should go to UCLA.

dissonance1848 wrote:Sorry, but prospects from Penn are worth more than the 10k higher scholly from Duke. Just check NJL250 for 2006-2010.

Also see summer associate data from 2006. Penn does quite a bit better among top NYC firms (and Duke has a lot of self-selection into NYC too, so its more apples to apples comparison).

haha, I'm glad you're such an expert on Duke placement. But looking at the figures when accounting for NLJ, clerkships, and PI/Gov, they look fairly even. For government work (what OP wants to do), they're peers; a government agency/office is not going to hire deeper into one class than another. And based on anecdotal evidence (which is about as good as it gets on TLS), Penn also seems to self-select far more into NYC than Duke, and Duke self-selects far more into southern markets (i.e. non-NLJ) than Penn.

I'll grant you that $10k is a small enough difference to choose between schools based solely on personal fit/preference, but since OP (and +1) has shown a propensity towards Duke.. well, Duke it is.

Edit: And since OP has strong connections to California, either of these schools (Penn/Duke) will be able to get him back there, while still giving him options on the east coast. I don't think UCLA is TCR here.

Are Duke, Penn & Columbia significantly more prestigious than UCLA in Los Angeles ?

Thanks! OK more info about me (putting all the cards out there): both +1 and I went to UCLA undergrad. While I enjoyed UCLA while an undergrad, I would like to try somewhere else for law school. I feel that by going back to UCLA for another 3 years I would be passing up my (last?) opportunity to live/study on the East Coast. Plus, while we see California long-term, we aren't thinking we need to be in California right away. I am aiming for government so we're talking DC. We are thinking 10 years down the road it would be great to transfer to California, but that's a long-term end game.

writingbuff wrote:UCLA is $90,000, Duke $70,000, Penn $60,000 and Columbia at sticker (probably). I would like to do government work, initially on the East Coast, though I am from California and would like to end up back in California eventually.

I went to the admitted students programs at Duke and Columbia and was very impressed with Duke. They were very welcoming and organized. Not so at Columbia. At the same time, I liked the other 0Ls I met at Columbia and was impressed with all the professors (naturally). I also passed through Penn and liked the school. I could see myself there as well. I visited all these schools with a +1 who will be moving with me. +1 was OK with all three, but expressed preference for Duke. We are from SoCal so UCLA would be the "safe choice", but although we see ourselves in California in the long term, we are looking for a change. Plus, there's rankings.

Thoughts appreciated!

If you want california then go to UCLA. if you want to change it up go to either Duke or Penn- whichever one you both like better. Dont make a decision based on some prospective students you met- chances are they may not be going there.

beachbum wrote:

dissonance1848 wrote:Sorry, but prospects from Penn are worth more than the 10k higher scholly from Duke. Just check NJL250 for 2006-2010.

Also see summer associate data from 2006. Penn does quite a bit better among top NYC firms (and Duke has a lot of self-selection into NYC too, so its more apples to apples comparison).

haha, I'm glad you're such an expert on Duke placement. But looking at the figures when accounting for NLJ, clerkships, and PI/Gov, they look fairly even. For government work (what OP wants to do), they're peers; a government agency/office is not going to hire deeper into one class than another. And based on anecdotal evidence (which is about as good as it gets on TLS), Penn also seems to self-select far more into NYC than Duke, and Duke self-selects far more into southern markets (i.e. non-NLJ) than Penn.

I'll grant you that $10k is a small enough difference to choose between schools based solely on personal fit/preference, but since OP (and +1) has shown a propensity towards Duke.. well, Duke it is.

Edit: And since OP has strong connections to California, either of these schools (Penn/Duke) will be able to get him back there, while still giving him options on the east coast. I don't think UCLA is TCR here.

I know it's april fools, but seriously, giving shitty advice is a prety weak prank.

InLikeFlint wrote:

beachbum wrote:

dissonance1848 wrote:Sorry, but prospects from Penn are worth more than the 10k higher scholly from Duke. Just check NJL250 for 2006-2010.

Also see summer associate data from 2006. Penn does quite a bit better among top NYC firms (and Duke has a lot of self-selection into NYC too, so its more apples to apples comparison).

haha, I'm glad you're such an expert on Duke placement. But looking at the figures when accounting for NLJ, clerkships, and PI/Gov, they look fairly even. For government work (what OP wants to do), they're peers; a government agency/office is not going to hire deeper into one class than another. And based on anecdotal evidence (which is about as good as it gets on TLS), Penn also seems to self-select far more into NYC than Duke, and Duke self-selects far more into southern markets (i.e. non-NLJ) than Penn.

I'll grant you that $10k is a small enough difference to choose between schools based solely on personal fit/preference, but since OP (and +1) has shown a propensity towards Duke.. well, Duke it is.

Edit: And since OP has strong connections to California, either of these schools (Penn/Duke) will be able to get him back there, while still giving him options on the east coast. I don't think UCLA is TCR here.

I know it's april fools, but seriously, giving shitty advice is a prety weak prank.

please enlighten me.

I went to UCLA for ugrad, and now attend Duke Law. I love the school and I am doing just fine. I may try and return to California in 10 years, but by then the firms I worked for will matter more than Duke Law.

If you want to start-off on the east coast, then UCLA is not a good idea.

I have a classmate who went to UCLA for ugrad too. He is not happy right now. He loves the school but I think he misses his family in California.

Some of my classmates do have SA positions in California, so Duke does have greater reach than UCLA.

Good luck.

Definitely not UCLA, given your ties and preferences. I think Penn is a better deal than Duke. $60k is more than enough to justify passing up Columbia for Penn, but you certainly would not be questioned for taking Columbia.

I would probably take Penn in this case.

Thank you everyone for the input.

I told Columbia about the scholarship from Penn. How likely is it Columbia will come through with funding? I know Columbia doesn't have a policy to match, but with Penn offering $60,000 it would be hard to go to Columbia at sticker.

Honestly all these schools are great. Which makes the decision that much more complicated...

Appreciating all the replies and debate!

Someone with ties to CA from Penn (or maybe even Duke) should not have a problem reaching back.

I would take Penn or CLS; Penn for cheap, CLS if you want the most options possible.

Also, other factors that are important to me are small class size and legal writing grading policy. Per below:

- Penn and Columbia = Legal Writing Ungraded (verses Duke graded)
- Penn and Duke = small class size

Duke has both a small class size & small first year sections.

beachbum wrote:Duke. It's just as good as Penn (in terms of prospects and portability) and at a lower cost. Columbia is going to run you significantly more when you account for COL differences, and I just don't think it's worth THAT much more. Likewise, UCLA is cheaper but not THAT much cheaper when accounting for COL, and Duke is superior in placement.

This is right on. Not to mention the COL at Penn compared with Duke makes the 10 grand extra from Duke actually amount to a good bit more.

I would go for Duke if I were you. 70K is pretty impressive for Duke by the way. Congrats.

Without a doubt Columbia is a powerhouse law school, but Duke & Penn seem to meet your needs at a much lower COA.

writingbuff wrote:Also, other factors that are important to me are small class size and legal writing grading policy. Per below:

- Penn and Columbia = Legal Writing Ungraded (verses Duke graded)
- Penn and Duke = small class size

If these are important to you, then definitely Penn. Before the Duke students come in and say that having a graded LRW is not bad, I want to tell you that having ungraded LRW is fantastic.

showNprove wrote:

writingbuff wrote:Also, other factors that are important to me are small class size and legal writing grading policy. Per below:

- Penn and Columbia = Legal Writing Ungraded (verses Duke graded)
- Penn and Duke = small class size

If these are important to you, then definitely Penn. Before the Duke students come in and say that having a graded LRW is not bad, I want to tell you that having ungraded LRW is fantastic.

Actually, at Duke ASW, when I was talking to a student, she said that the only thing that she disliked about Duke Law was the graded LRW. She stated it was "a huge time-suck for only three credits over the course of two semesters".

To OP: I would choose between Penn and Duke. If you have any questions about Duke, shoot me a PM. I was very impressed with their ASW and will be happily attending there this upcoming Fall.

Thanks again to everybody.

It looks like unless Columbia offers some last minute funding to change the calculus, the choice is between Penn and Duke.

+1 and I really liked Duke's ASW. After the Duke ASW I would be confident attending Duke. However, since we did not get a chance to visit Penn's ASW, we are not comparing apples to apples when looking at the two schools. Which is unfortunate. If possible, I would like to get a better feeling for Penn's ASW. Did any members of TLS attend the Penn ASW? Would you be willing to share your experiences? Looking specifically at:

- Organization of events and overall sense of "welcome".
- Interaction with professors. Did professors actively participate in ASW? Did they want to give advice and learn about students, or did they talk mainly about themselves and their research?
- Current students. Did they seem happy? Stressed? Collegial? How did they describe their 1L year?
- Did the opportunities to socialize include +1s? My +1 felt very included during the Duke ASW. Would this be the case at Penn?
- Housing. We were very impressed by the housing at Duke, but did not get a chance to see housing at Penn. What would the quality and cost be for 1 bedrooms at Penn?

I realize these questions are fairly specific. We would appreciate any insights and personal experiences.

Thanks!

writingbuff wrote:Thanks again to everybody.

It looks like unless Columbia offers some last minute funding to change the calculus, the choice is between Penn and Duke.

+1 and I really liked Duke's ASW. After the Duke ASW I would be confident attending Duke. However, since we did not get a chance to visit Penn's ASW, we are not comparing apples to apples when looking at the two schools. Which is unfortunate. If possible, I would like to get a better feeling for Penn's ASW. Did any members of TLS attend the Penn ASW? Would you be willing to share your experiences? Looking specifically at:

- Organization of events and overall sense of "welcome".
- Interaction with professors. Did professors actively participate in ASW? Did they want to give advice and learn about students, or did they talk mainly about themselves and their research?
- Current students. Did they seem happy? Stressed? Collegial? How did they describe their 1L year?
- Did the opportunities to socialize include +1s? My +1 felt very included during the Duke ASW. Would this be the case at Penn?
- Housing. We were very impressed by the housing at Duke, but did not get a chance to see housing at Penn. What would the quality and cost be for 1 bedrooms at Penn?

I realize these questions are fairly specific. We would appreciate any insights and personal experiences.

Thanks!

go to the visiting law schools forum. there's a thread on the ASW. people raved about it.