USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

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flexityflex86
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USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby flexityflex86 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:28 pm

How much more money are these 2 tied in 18 suckas worth than the 20-30 range? Let's take geographic preference out, and consider the end goal to be employment in mid-law or big law or a clerkship, and perhaps a bit of layman's prestige.

At the end of the day how much more would you pay to attend one of these 2 than an IU: B, Notre Dame, Minnesota, Emory, William & Mary Illinois, etc.?

Is WUSTL worth 50k more than IU: B? Is USC worth 30k more than Notre Dame, etc.?

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:36 pm

These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.

flexityflex86
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby flexityflex86 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:38 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.

1st off, UT is a top 14.

2nd off, Fordham places better than WUSTL? Really? Doesn't it only place in NY where it's the 4th choice?

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Attorney
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Attorney » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:07 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:
Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.

1st off, UT is a top 14.

2nd off, Fordham places better than WUSTL? Really? Doesn't it only place in NY where it's the 4th choice?


Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years.

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predent/prelaw
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby predent/prelaw » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:15 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.


Blatant UCLA/USC cock size competition

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FuManChusco
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby FuManChusco » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:32 pm

Attorney wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.

1st off, UT is a top 14.

2nd off, Fordham places better than WUSTL? Really? Doesn't it only place in NY where it's the 4th choice?


Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years year.


ftfy

flexityflex86
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby flexityflex86 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:42 pm

lol. these boards are a given and take. no helpful advise.

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Attorney
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Attorney » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:52 pm

FuManChusco wrote:
Attorney wrote:Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years year.


ftfy

Nah, average... not just this past year. WUSTL was a 25% to 30% school in the good times and Fordham was a 32% to 38% school or sometimes better. There was a smaller gap in 2009 but a larger one in 2008.

This has everything to do with location of course, and very little to do with quality of school.

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bk1
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:57 pm

These schools aren't peers even though they have the same ranking.

USC is a peer of UCLA/UT/Vandy.

WUSTL is a peer of Illinois/ND.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:38 pm

ND placed 6 points better than UIUC/WUSTL in the past year' NLJ. Not sure if this means a whole lot, but it is something. USC and WUSTL are NOT peers.

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Cade McNown » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:43 pm

Attorney wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:These can probably all be grouped together. If you want biglaw, you will probably want to go to a school in a major market, as opposed to a WUSTL or ND.

Surprised you don't have any of the big non-T14 schools on your list:
UCLA
Vandy
UT
GW
BC
BU
Fordham

These schools will all place better than the midwstern and southern schools that you listed, none of which really feeds into a major market.

1st off, UT is a top 14.

2nd off, Fordham places better than WUSTL? Really? Doesn't it only place in NY where it's the 4th choice?


Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years.


Lol, wut?

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Attorney
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Attorney » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:14 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Attorney wrote:Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years.


Lol, wut?

Have you ever even looked at the placement stats? I said "no better", but that was being generous to Texas, not to BC/USC/etc.

NLJ has Boston College with 34% to 46% into Big Law the past 3 years.
NLJ has "T14" Texas with 27% to 39% into Big Law the past 3 years.

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FuManChusco
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby FuManChusco » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:27 pm

Attorney wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:
Attorney wrote:Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years year.


ftfy

Nah, average... not just this past year. WUSTL was a 25% to 30% school in the good times and Fordham was a 32% to 38% school or sometimes better. There was a smaller gap in 2009 but a larger one in 2008.

This has everything to do with location of course, and very little to do with quality of school.


anything that happened pre-2009 is basically irrelevant at this point. I seriously doubt Fordham will be placing that many people into biglaw anytime soon. but yes, the previous numbers were an indicator of Fordham's success in NYC biglaw. I imagine they'll both be hovering between 25% and 30% at the end of the day.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:45 am

If you want a good price, lay prestige, mobility and a biglaw shot, I'd say go to Notre Dame.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:08 am

I meant to say USC, but left it off because I was talking about schools not being considered. Regardless, everyone gets the point that USC places into BigLaw much better than WUSTL, along with a number of 20-30 schools, including Fordham.

I don't know why WUSTL doesn't do well placing law students into large law firms when compared to peer schools. I figure its location is a large problem. Either way, it is what it is.

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Cade McNown
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Cade McNown » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:32 pm

Attorney wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:
Attorney wrote:Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years.


Lol, wut?

Have you ever even looked at the placement stats? I said "no better", but that was being generous to Texas, not to BC/USC/etc.

NLJ has Boston College with 34% to 46% into Big Law the past 3 years.
NLJ has "T14" Texas with 27% to 39% into Big Law the past 3 years.


Have you looked at the clerkship stats? how about the graduation employment stats?

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bk1
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:36 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:I meant to say USC, but left it off because I was talking about schools not being considered. Regardless, everyone gets the point that USC places into BigLaw much better than WUSTL, along with a number of 20-30 schools, including Fordham.

I don't know why WUSTL doesn't do well placing law students into large law firms when compared to peer schools. I figure its location is a large problem. Either way, it is what it is.


WUSTL places just as well as its main peers in its market (Illinois/Notre Dame). The fact is, these schools place worse than their peers that place into stronger markets (BU/BC, which have identical placement stats to each other but significantly better than the midwest schools, and Fordham which is slightly worse than the Boston schools). This has to do with the markets they place into and not the schools themselves.

Stop determining peers by USNWR rank because that rank is mainly irrelevant. USC and WUSTL are not peers, no matter what a magazine says.
Last edited by bk1 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Attorney
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Re: USC & WUSTL vs. 20-30

Postby Attorney » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:54 pm

Cade McNown wrote:
Attorney wrote:
Cade McNown wrote:
Attorney wrote:Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA. Fordham indeed places better than WUSTL, by an average of about 8 points in recent years.


Lol, wut?

Have you ever even looked at the placement stats? I said "no better", but that was being generous to Texas, not to BC/USC/etc.

NLJ has Boston College with 34% to 46% into Big Law the past 3 years.
NLJ has "T14" Texas with 27% to 39% into Big Law the past 3 years.


Have you looked at the clerkship stats? how about the graduation employment stats?

I hope you're kidding about the "graduation employment stats", but yes, I know the clerkship stats. Add Big Law + Article III clerkships, and Texas came out ahead in 2009, whereas BC came out ahead in 2008 and 2010. I'm willing to say they're somewhat equal in placement.

Add the past few years together (Big Law + Art. III in 2008, 2009, and 2010) and you get something like this with regard to my text that you bolded.

#14 Vanderbilt, 49%
#15 Georgetown, 48%
#16 UCLA, 44%
#17 USC, 43%
#18 Boston College, 42%
#19 Texas, 41%
#20 Boston University, 39%

These are somewhat rough estimates as I haven't found all the clerkship numbers yet (and so some years are double-counted for some schools so far)... but each will end up within 1 to 2 percentage points of the true numbers. To repeat, yes, "Texas is #14 in this year's US News, but it places no better than Boston College, USC, Boston University, Vandy, or UCLA."

Placement-wise, Texas is a peer of the two Boston schools and the two Los Angeles schools. Vandy and G'town are probably better than this BOS/LA group. The T13 is much, much better (ranging from Stanford at 74% to Cornell at 60%).




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