Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

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caljordan7
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Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby caljordan7 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:25 pm

I realize it's not an ideal choice (being I foreign student with a U.S. undergrad my loan options were limited, so I need to take scholarship money), but money being equal, about half-tuition about both schools, where would you go? Any and all advice welcome!

cabbydui
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby cabbydui » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:27 pm

Neither; no one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to go to LS. Retake and try to get UCLA.

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arhmcpo
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby arhmcpo » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:37 pm

You need to retake your LSAT and apply/get admitted to better schools.

Both Whittier and Thomas Jefferson flirt with losing their ABA accreditation status. Your chances of passing the California BAR coming from these schools is also bad. Assuming the school stays accredited, you graduate, and manage to pass the BAR, it will be difficult to find employers willing to interview you, much less hire you, coming from either of these schools.

You owe it to yourself to either retake your LSAT for a higher score or not go to law school.

Sandro
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Sandro » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:40 pm

cabbydui wrote:Neither; no one is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you have to go to LS.


Uhh, no

Image


But OP, seriously, no. Please, we are trying to look out for you.

caljordan7
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby caljordan7 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:05 pm

I was pretty much expecting these responses from TLS users, all doom and gloom, "top 14 or bust", and these are valid points, something I grapple with myself. I actually didn't do poorly on my LSAT and have gotten into much better schools, but I have no way of paying for them. Would you like to co-sign on my 200k loan? As a Canadian citizen, I can't get a US loan, and Canadian banks only give out 80k max (27k per year of school).

Let's say I pass the bar and graduate top 5-10% of my class, just a hypothetical...are my prospects looking any better? I also think graduating with 50-70k of debt rather than 150-200k of debt is an advantage too, no?

Sean1269
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Sean1269 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:12 pm

Anything over 100K in debt is daunting. I suggest against it.

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Bill Cosby
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Bill Cosby » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 pm

caljordan7 wrote:I was pretty much expecting these responses from TLS users, all doom and gloom, "top 14 or bust", and these are valid points, something I grapple with myself. I actually didn't do poorly on my LSAT and have gotten into much better schools, but I have no way of paying for them. Would you like to co-sign on my 200k loan? As a Canadian citizen, I can't get a US loan, and Canadian banks only give out 80k max (27k per year of school).

Let's say I pass the bar and graduate top 5-10% of my class, just a hypothetical...are my prospects looking any better? I also think graduating with 50-70k of debt rather than 150-200k of debt is an advantage too, no?


90% of people won't graduate in the top 10%. I know that's sounds pedantic, but it's a point people really tend to gloss over.

TheFactor
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby TheFactor » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:24 pm

Bill Cosby wrote:
caljordan7 wrote:I was pretty much expecting these responses from TLS users, all doom and gloom, "top 14 or bust", and these are valid points, something I grapple with myself. I actually didn't do poorly on my LSAT and have gotten into much better schools, but I have no way of paying for them. Would you like to co-sign on my 200k loan? As a Canadian citizen, I can't get a US loan, and Canadian banks only give out 80k max (27k per year of school).

Let's say I pass the bar and graduate top 5-10% of my class, just a hypothetical...are my prospects looking any better? I also think graduating with 50-70k of debt rather than 150-200k of debt is an advantage too, no?


90% of people won't graduate in the top 10%. I know that's sounds pedantic, but it's a point people really tend to gloss over.

Hence, the hypothetical nature of his question.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:28 pm

The man asked a question, and he deserves an answer.

Whittier. Why? TJ's terrible reputation getting worse after the NYT article.

That's the only thing I could think of to differentiate those beacons of legal education.

ETA: Not srs.
Last edited by TatteredDignity on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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arhmcpo
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby arhmcpo » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:29 pm

caljordan7 wrote:I was pretty much expecting these responses from TLS users, all doom and gloom, "top 14 or bust", and these are valid points, something I grapple with myself. I actually didn't do poorly on my LSAT and have gotten into much better schools, but I have no way of paying for them. Would you like to co-sign on my 200k loan? As a Canadian citizen, I can't get a US loan, and Canadian banks only give out 80k max (27k per year of school).

Let's say I pass the bar and graduate top 5-10% of my class, just a hypothetical...are my prospects looking any better? I also think graduating with 50-70k of debt rather than 150-200k of debt is an advantage too, no?


Hmm, I think if you graduate top 5-10% from just about any school you should be able to get a job...but Whittier and Thomas Jefferson truly test my theory.... I understand your loan situation is tough - why are you applying to CA schools who tend to have high tuition and extremely high COL when there are plenty of good schools with much lower costs in other states????

I think you could get midlaw (maybe) in LA with top 5% from these schools, at Jefferson your job prospects might be better than Whittier, at least for the SD market, otherwise best route is to go small firm (I'm talking like solo practitioner small) and make yourself indispensable so they don't care where you went to school.

I'm not T14 or bust at all - I went to a lower ranked school to save a ton of money because I didn't want loans - so I know pretty well where your coming from. I just have lived and worked in socal my whole life and have a pretty good understanding of the reputation of these schools. Have you tried negotiating for a full ride? A full ride anywhere is not a bad deal.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby mpj_3050 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:35 pm

So you want to leave Canada, which is infinitely better than America, to attend Whittier or Thomas Jefferson? For the love of God retake the LSAT. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, which I'm certainly not. Both of these schools are absolutely terrible choices even with scholarships. I know someone who attends Whittier and he says it is the worst decision he has ever made; many of his classmates share the sentiment.

Edit: But since you asked...Whittier.
Last edited by mpj_3050 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheFactor
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby TheFactor » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:36 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:So you want to leave Canada, which is infinitely better than America, to attend Whittier or Thomas Jefferson? For the love of God retake the LSAT. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, which I'm certainly not. Both of these schools are absolutely terrible choices even with scholarships. I know someone who attends Whittier and he says it is the worst decision he has ever made; many of his classmates share the sentiment.

caljordan7
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby caljordan7 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:39 pm

arhmcpo wrote:
caljordan7 wrote:I was pretty much expecting these responses from TLS users, all doom and gloom, "top 14 or bust", and these are valid points, something I grapple with myself. I actually didn't do poorly on my LSAT and have gotten into much better schools, but I have no way of paying for them. Would you like to co-sign on my 200k loan? As a Canadian citizen, I can't get a US loan, and Canadian banks only give out 80k max (27k per year of school).

Let's say I pass the bar and graduate top 5-10% of my class, just a hypothetical...are my prospects looking any better? I also think graduating with 50-70k of debt rather than 150-200k of debt is an advantage too, no?


Hmm, I think if you graduate top 5-10% from just about any school you should be able to get a job...but Whittier and Thomas Jefferson truly test my theory.... I understand your loan situation is tough - why are you applying to CA schools who tend to have high tuition and extremely high COL when there are plenty of good schools with much lower costs in other states????

I think you could get midlaw (maybe) in LA with top 5% from these schools, at Jefferson your job prospects might be better than Whittier, at least for the SD market, otherwise best route is to go small firm (I'm talking like solo practitioner small) and make yourself indispensable so they don't care where you went to school.

I'm not T14 or bust at all - I went to a lower ranked school to save a ton of money because I didn't want loans - so I know pretty well where your coming from. I just have lived and worked in socal my whole life and have a pretty good understanding of the reputation of these schools. Have you tried negotiating for a full ride? A full ride anywhere is not a bad deal.


I appreciate the genuine response. I actually graduated from Cal, with a good GPA and decent LSAT, so the thought of ending up at Whittier or TJ is a bit depressing, but it's the reality of my situation given my status. I want to stay in California, and if that's sacrificing going to a better school, so be it. I realize I'm not going to graduate with a 160k starting job, 95% of the people on this site won't, even those "top 14" supporters, so I'm realistic about the job prospects. But if people we're going to these schools and NONE of them were employed, as some people suspect, these schools wouldn't be in business. I agree with you TJ might be better job prospects wise, and I actually think it's regional reputation is getting better, especially with the new building.

About negotiating scholarships, how realistic is it? Can I go from 60% ride to full, is that negotiable?

caljordan7
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby caljordan7 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:44 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:So you want to leave Canada, which is infinitely better than America, to attend Whittier or Thomas Jefferson? For the love of God retake the LSAT. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, which I'm certainly not. Both of these schools are absolutely terrible choices even with scholarships. I know someone who attends Whittier and he says it is the worst decision he has ever made; many of his classmates share the sentiment.

Edit: But since you asked...Whittier.


Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Alex-Trof » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:45 pm

caljordan7 wrote:I appreciate the genuine response. I actually graduated from Cal, with a good GPA and decent LSAT, so the thought of ending up at Whittier or TJ is a bit depressing, but it's the reality of my situation given my status. I want to stay in California, and if that's sacrificing going to a better school, so be it. I realize I'm not going to graduate with a 160k starting job, 95% of the people on this site won't, even those "top 14" supporters, so I'm realistic about the job prospects. But if people we're going to these schools and NONE of them were employed, as some people suspect, these schools wouldn't be in business. I agree with you TJ might be better job prospects wise, and I actually think it's regional reputation is getting better, especially with the new building.

About negotiating scholarships, how realistic is it? Can I go from 60% ride to full, is that negotiable?

I still don't understand why cant you retake the LSAT and get big scholarships at better schools in Cali.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:45 pm

caljordan7 wrote:
arhmcpo wrote:
caljordan7 wrote:
I appreciate the genuine response. I actually graduated from Cal, with a good GPA and decent LSAT, so the thought of ending up at Whittier or TJ is a bit depressing, but it's the reality of my situation given my status. I want to stay in California, and if that's sacrificing going to a better school, so be it. I realize I'm not going to graduate with a 160k starting job, 95% of the people on this site won't, even those "top 14" supporters, so I'm realistic about the job prospects. But if people we're going to these schools and NONE of them were employed, as some people suspect, these schools wouldn't bebecause of uninformed/overconfident 0Ls are somehow still in business. I agree with you TJ might be better job prospects wise, and I actually think it's regional reputation is getting better, especially with the new building.

About negotiating scholarships, how realistic is it? Can I go from 60% ride to full, is that negotiable?

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Alex-Trof » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:46 pm

caljordan7 wrote:
Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?


Marginally better means everything when it comes to scholarships and acceptances.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby mpj_3050 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:50 pm

caljordan7 wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:So you want to leave Canada, which is infinitely better than America, to attend Whittier or Thomas Jefferson? For the love of God retake the LSAT. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, which I'm certainly not. Both of these schools are absolutely terrible choices even with scholarships. I know someone who attends Whittier and he says it is the worst decision he has ever made; many of his classmates share the sentiment.

Edit: But since you asked...Whittier.


Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?


Never lived in Canada but I have 2 family members who were wiped out by medical bills after working like dogs their entire lives. Once you look past the veneer America blows.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Lawl Shcool » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:50 pm

The TJ hate on this board is silly. They have a wonderful new building and a great faculty. You will have to hustle regardless of what your grades are to find work but I know several TJ people with very strong summer offers FWIW. That being said you should be looking to minimize debt as much a humanly possible.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:52 pm

caljordan7 wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:So you want to leave Canada, which is infinitely better than America, to attend Whittier or Thomas Jefferson? For the love of God retake the LSAT. It has nothing to do with being an elitist, which I'm certainly not. Both of these schools are absolutely terrible choices even with scholarships. I know someone who attends Whittier and he says it is the worst decision he has ever made; many of his classmates share the sentiment.

Edit: But since you asked...Whittier.


Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?

find a different career. Not trying to be an asshole... but if because of your loan situation, these are the best schools you get into, its not worth it. Find a job in cali.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby joemoviebuff » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:58 pm

caljordan7 wrote:
About negotiating scholarships, how realistic is it? Can I go from 60% ride to full, is that negotiable?


TJ's reputation is that they are extremely stingy with scholarship money, so I'd doubt they'd give you more. Your scholarship also probably came with some hefty, unrealistic stipulations, so if you don't hit top 1/3 or whatever you won't have it for the remainder of your time there, and it will be basically just as expensive as the other schools you can't afford right now.

Do you mind if I inquire what your LSAT score is?

BeautifulSW
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:07 pm

Wow, what a choice.

I used to litigate regularly against a TJLS-trained lawyer, a perfectly competent attorney.

Interesting school, though...in the fairly recent past, TJLS was a CBE school. At some point, it got ABA provisional approval. So students that had settled for an "unaccredited" school (in the national sense) and paid tuition with that belief and understanding actually graduated with an ABA approved degree. A pleasant surprise for them, I'm sure, especially in contrast to the equivalent UNpleasant surprise that nearly overtook students at TJLS' erstwhile sister school, Western State. WSU Law actually LOST its provisional ABA approval and reverted to CBE status. The school and the ABA worked something out (with the help of a lawsuit) so I think everything turned out okay but if it had been me, I'd have been pretty upset about it.

seriously????
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby seriously???? » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:19 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
caljordan7 wrote:
About negotiating scholarships, how realistic is it? Can I go from 60% ride to full, is that negotiable?


TJ's reputation is that they are extremely stingy with scholarship money, so I'd doubt they'd give you more. Your scholarship also probably came with some hefty, unrealistic stipulations, so if you don't hit top 1/3 or whatever you won't have it for the remainder of your time there, and it will be basically just as expensive as the other schools you can't afford right now.

Do you mind if I inquire what your LSAT score is?


Not exactly sure why being top 1/3 of your class is unrealistic?
If you goto pretty much any school outside the T14 and are not in the top 1/3 you are pretty much screwed. So even if you goto a better school for more money, if you don't get top 1/3 you are screwed. And is it wrong to assume that if you can't get top 1/3 at a T1, you prolly wouldn't be top 1/3 at a T3/T4? So, regardless, you are screwed in either scenario.
However, OP, if you could raise your LSAT a tad, perhaps it could get you a full ride as opposed to 60% scholly.

AP-375
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby AP-375 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:37 pm

caljordan7 wrote:Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?


Here are TEN alternatives, some better than others, but they exist, and they will all get you to a better law school:
1) Work for a few years, save a ton of money to make up the loan difference
2) Retake the LSAT and do significantly better and apply somewhere that gives you a full ride
3) Retake and reapply and do somewhat better and apply somewhere that gives you enough to be covered by your limited loan
4) Find someone, an employer, relative, homeless person, to co-sign, and go somewhere else
5) Go back to Berkeley, get a graduate degree, then apply somewhere else
6) Marry an American, get better loan options
7) Get a significant other, and have him or her co-sign
8 ) Go to a Canadian law school
9) Join Teach For America or the Peace Corps or whatever, do service for two years, come back, have better options
10) Move to Montana, live in the Bob Marshall Wilderness for a year, clear your head, then choose one of the above

caljordan7
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Re: Whittier or Thomas Jefferson?

Postby caljordan7 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:19 pm

AP-375 wrote:
caljordan7 wrote:Have you lived in Canada? I'm actually from Toronto, which is actually a great city, but I went to Berkeley, and I love California, and it's been my home for 5 years now, so I want to stay...okay, so I retake my LSAT and do marginally better, get into better schools I still can't afford.....alternatives?


Here are TEN alternatives, some better than others, but they exist, and they will all get you to a better law school:
1) Work for a few years, save a ton of money to make up the loan difference
2) Retake the LSAT and do significantly better and apply somewhere that gives you a full ride
3) Retake and reapply and do somewhat better and apply somewhere that gives you enough to be covered by your limited loan
4) Find someone, an employer, relative, homeless person, to co-sign, and go somewhere else
5) Go back to Berkeley, get a graduate degree, then apply somewhere else
6) Marry an American, get better loan options
7) Get a significant other, and have him or her co-sign
8 ) Go to a Canadian law school
9) Join Teach For America or the Peace Corps or whatever, do service for two years, come back, have better options
10) Move to Montana, live in the Bob Marshall Wilderness for a year, clear your head, then choose one of the above


Haha, great list...

1) Working in the US is contingent upon me getting an H1B visa...I'm working on it
2) Possibility, but I'm 4 months removed from LSAT mode, so this is a last resort
3) TJ and Whittier do cover my costs, and even if I did marginally better, not much money would be available from better schools
4) If it were that easy, I wouldn't be in this problem. You want to co-sign?
5) That would cost a boat load of money...no point
6) Marriage...already an enormous headache when you do it legally, let alone illegally
7) Same as 6
8) Thought about it, and still an option, but I can kiss California goodbye
9) Teach For America is harder to get into than law school
10) Good one.




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