WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where?

Wisconsin: 94K – instate plus 6K a year scholly (no stips)
10
59%
Lewis and Clark : 119K – 18K a year scholly (2.95 roughly top 50%)
7
41%
 
Total votes: 17

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gwuorbust
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am

proof. just pulled this from my email from one of our deans to the 1L class:

These quartile cutoffs are the only information which is available for first year students for the fall term and are not official class standings (official class rankings are determined at the end of the spring semester). This is for informational purposes only.

25% - 3.573
33% - 3.500
50% - 3.309
75% - 2.977

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alexonfyre
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby alexonfyre » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:25 am

crit_racer wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:
theavrock wrote:I only applied to schools in locations I would be happy in. WI would be great because I love the state and family is there. If it were not for the weather I would probably have never moved for work.

That's what my concerns were about WI. Few env. options although I am not hell bent on it.

Remember that those costs are inflated. They take full COL from school websites into consideration when in all honesty I can get by on less, plus I have some savings. Additionally I plan on picking up a bartending gig (did that for 3 years in college) to help cover living costs in 2nd and 3rd year.

I only used COL from schools sites to put everything at a baseline.


Granted, I haven't been to WI, but Tulane has more bars within walking distance of campus than any campus I have been to (aside from a couple of the bigger party schools in the nation.) :mrgreen:

As for Emory vs. L&C:
-Portland >> Atlanta
*Less competitive
*Friendlier
*Weathered the recession better

-Having been involved at Emory and worked in the Fulton County Court System, Emory is not the school it was 5-10 years ago. Its reputation is suffering, the career center has been more or less useless to anyone outside of the top 20% and they are producing students with a sense of entitlement greater than that of even superior schools such as Vanderbilt. There have been broad accusations of severe statistics manipulation, I can't back that up, so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe it. I have met many ELS students (I used to use both their and GSU's law library extensively in undergrad,) and they seemed overall much less happy with their education and opportunities than the other three major ATL schools (UGA, Vandy, GSU.) Judges and lawyers in the area said they went less deep into Emory because many of the students seemed blase and not enthusiastic to work with them.
The reason for this (pure speculation, but agreed on by many I have spoken with) is that Emory is putting way more into its medical school than pretty much anything else. They are trying to hang on to their law school's reputation, as it makes them tons of money, but they aren't putting a whole lot of money or effort into maintaining it. It was working for them for a while, but now the cracks are showing in the facade, and it isn't long before the whole thing falls down.
I still believe Emory is a Tier 1 school, simply based on the quality of the faculty there and its history, but it is no longer worth the price of admission, and shouldn't be considered in the same class as Vanderbilt and UCLA as it may have once been.
The hierarchy should be:
Vandy > UGA > GSU/Emory (with GSU much cheaper and gaining reputation by the year.)

On the other hand, L&C has garnered nothing but praise in its small section of the world and they tend to be very generous with their scholarships (on top of an already cheap tuition.) They have amazing facilities and employment numbers that show them really dominating Portland, and placing solidly throughout their region (up to Seattle, down to NorCal.) Plus John Kroger teaches there, and that guy is awesome.

In short, I have heard to many bad things about Emory from too many people across the board from academia to private to PI to students for me to even consider them. Am I biased? Absolutely, but is it unreasonable? Not a chance.


Coming from someone who is seriously considering Emory and L&C, I do not think you can back up the claim that L&C places well in its region. It has no clout in Seattle or Norcal, and jobs in Portland are few and far between.


Well they are putting 80/200 students a year in law firms somewhere in Oregon(75%), Hawaii, Alaska, Washington and California(12%)...where else would you suggest they be?

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theavrock
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:15 am

gwuorbust wrote:proof. just pulled this from my email from one of our deans to the 1L class:

These quartile cutoffs are the only information which is available for first year students for the fall term and are not official class standings (official class rankings are determined at the end of the spring semester). This is for informational purposes only.

25% - 3.573
33% - 3.500
50% - 3.309
75% - 2.977


Fair enough. Just seems stupid that someone in admissions would make a fail like that. Obviously prospective students (or those who are doing their homework), would care where the curve lays. A difference of 15-20% between what they are saying and what is true is a pretty decent difference.

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alexonfyre
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby alexonfyre » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:59 am

theavrock wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:proof. just pulled this from my email from one of our deans to the 1L class:

These quartile cutoffs are the only information which is available for first year students for the fall term and are not official class standings (official class rankings are determined at the end of the spring semester). This is for informational purposes only.

25% - 3.573
33% - 3.500
50% - 3.309
75% - 2.977


Fair enough. Just seems stupid that someone in admissions would make a fail like that. Obviously prospective students (or those who are doing their homework), would care where the curve lays. A difference of 15-20% between what they are saying and what is true is a pretty decent difference.


They were probably severely underestimating to make sure that if you ended up at the percentage they told you, you would definitely be above 3.0

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:08 am

gwuorbust wrote:
theavrock wrote:

No worries at all. I was actually hoping you would see this thread. I've seen you a lot on Tulane threads and while you definitely support Tulane it always comes across as balanced and reasoned.

This is exactly what the letter said.

"While there is some change from year to year, I can tell you the median GPS for last year's 1L class was 3.056 at the end of the Spring 2010 semester. A grade point average of 3.0 placed students in the top 57% of the class."


I am a 1L here and I can assure you the new median is ~3.25. In the Spring of 2010 it was set at ~3.0, but that has changed. I have seen the breakdowns. The new grading scale started in the Fall of 2011 - hence why the Spring of 2010 would still have a median of 3.056.

. . . what happened is that someone probably just copy-pasted from a previous years scholarship letter. . . fail.


Basically. The 25% of the 1L class was a 2.977. Interpret that how you will.

ELS2010
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby ELS2010 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:34 am

alexonfyre wrote:Vandy > UGA > GSU/Emory (with GSU much cheaper and gaining reputation by the year.)


I want some of what you are smoking. Still pissed off about getting rejected, eh?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:15 pm

Anyone interested in Tulane, check this out. It's from an email from the dean of admission:

Dear Aberzombie1892:

Thank you for your e-mail. Sometimes it helps to have the facts. Until data under the new curve became available to me, the scholarship letter stated, “While there is some change from year to year, I can tell you that the median GPA for last year’s 1L class was 3.056 at the end of the Spring 2010 semester. A grade point average of 3.0 placed a student in the top 57% of the class.” After the relevant data became available in February, the letter was changed to state: “The mean GPA at Tulane Law School is set to fall between 3.2 and 3.3, so the renewal criterion of 3.0 would likely fall somewhere near the top three-quarters of the class.”

If you know of admitted students who are confused about this, I hope you will let me know.

/SLK

So let me know if you have any more questions, or you can email Dean K.
Last edited by Aberzombie1892 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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theavrock
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:19 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Anyone interested in Tulane, check this out. It's from an email from the dean of admission:

Dear Aberzombie1892:

Thank you for your e-mail. Sometimes it helps to have the facts. Until data under the new curve became available to me, the scholarship letter stated, “While there is some change from year to year, I can tell you that the median GPA for last year’s 1L class was 3.056 at the end of the Spring 2010 semester. A grade point average of 3.0 placed a student in the top 57% of the class.” After the relevant data became available in February, the letter was changed to state: “The mean GPA at Tulane Law School is set to fall between 3.2 and 3.3, so the renewal criterion of 3.0 would likely fall somewhere near the top three-quarters of the class.”

If you know of admitted students who are confused about this, I hope you will let me know.

/SLK


Awesome! Thanks for clearing that up.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:07 pm

Only you can really determine which school will least mess up your life.

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theavrock
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:44 pm

Slevin Kelevra 2011 wrote:Only you can really determine which school will least mess up your life.


Thanks for this.

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theavrock
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:11 pm

Still curious about all the Emory love in the poll.

I know Emory is a good school and better for big law than any of the other schools I am considering, but anyone who voted in the poll or otherwise care to weigh in on why the extra cost of Emory would be worth it in comparison to my other options?

Thanks for all the opinions everyone. I am glad that this isn't clear cut. Makes me feel better than I am conflicted about this.

ELS2010
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby ELS2010 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:27 pm

If you are using the school's estimated COA, then your numbers for Emory are way too high. The school intentionally inflates the "estimated cost of living" so you can borrow whatever you need (because that's the limit on what the government will allow you to borrow on Federally-guaranteed loans). By doing so, it allows you to borrow more at a better rate if you need to.

I get why Wisconsin would be tempting (not my cup of tea, but if the weather doesn't bother you, more power to you), but Emory is head-and-shoulders above the other choices you listed as far as setting you up for life beyond law school.

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theavrock
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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Well technically all schools do that. This is why I used COA from the school's websites. All inflate them for financial aid purposes so it was as level of a floor as possible. Its nearly impossible to state what the COA would be, but using just tuition costs would have been misleading as well.

Thanks for the response. Why do you say that about Emory? It just seems like a ton of debt to take on. Is the cost difference worth it in comparison to the other schools when taking what I want to do post school in to consideration?

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theavrock
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:10 am

BUMP

Edited OP and poll (poll choices were cleared) to show current choices. Essentially I decided the South wasn't where I wanted to be and would be happier in the West or Midwest, so I withdrew from Tulane and Emory.

Am I crazy for considering L&C and Portland over WI?

Right now, I feel like its coming down to safe and steady with a known outcome (WI) vs. a new place and more unpredictable but possibly higher upside (L&C/Portland).

CanadianWolf
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:23 am

Wisconsin is the lesser risk in your situation.

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theavrock
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:29 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Wisconsin is the lesser risk in your situation.

Thanks for the input. Any reason you say so?

Nevermind. Missed the edit.

thedive
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby thedive » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:47 pm

Under 11k a year for tuition at Madison is not bad at all. Don't have to sit for the bar either if you wish to stay in WI.

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masochist
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby masochist » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:38 pm

L+C and Oregon do place well in Portland, but Portland is a scary market. I have a friend from HLS with regional connections and DOJ experience who has not been able to find an environmental law job in Portland for 9 months. It is a tiny legal market, and a lot of natives try to return to Portland after graduating from schools in other areas of the country because they like culture. Actually, that is what I am going to try to do.

So, I vote for WI. The competition for jobs in WI will not be as brutal as the competition in Portland. Although not terribly portable, a WI JD is still more regional than L+C given that Washington dominates Seattle and SLS/Berkeley/rest-of-t14 dominates San Francisco.

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mpj_3050
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Re: WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby mpj_3050 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:45 pm

thedive wrote:Under 11k a year for tuition at Madison is not bad at all. Don't have to sit for the bar either if you wish to stay in WI.


Believe me I wish I could go to Wisconsin period, especially at 11k tuition. Have fun in Madison, best of luck to you.




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