WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where?

Wisconsin: 94K – instate plus 6K a year scholly (no stips)
10
59%
Lewis and Clark : 119K – 18K a year scholly (2.95 roughly top 50%)
7
41%
 
Total votes: 17

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theavrock
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WI vs. L&C- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:36 am

EDIT: Have decided that although I could be happy in the South I would prefer to be in the West or Midwest, so I have ruled out Tulane and Emory.
Would love to hear thoughts on L&C vs. Wisconsin. Right now, I feel like its coming down to safe and steady with a known outcome (WI) vs. a new place and more unpredictable but possibly higher upside.

Have at it. I added a poll and would love to hear why anyone votes the way they do even if its just a one sentence answer.

My options are as follows and are listed by COA (according to school's sites) in ascending order.

Wisconsin: 94K – instate plus 6K a year scholly (no stips)
Lewis and Clark : 119K – 18K a year scholly (2.95 roughly top 50%) have requested review on scholly and am waiting to hear about the possibility of increased merit aid.


I only applied to places that I would be happy living and working in, no preference for one or the other. Main concern is that I am employed upon graduation in a legal setting. I am fairly used to the hustle/networking game and that will be my plan from day 1 as opposed to hoping at OCI.

Post grad I would like to do public interest, preferably environmental (was an Env. Sciences undergrad), but I don’t want to pigeonhole myself. Would only be interested in big law as a means to more high profile public interest gig.

I know specialty rankings are meaningless and the conventional wisdom would be to take the $$ at WI, but I am somewhat concerned by the lack of environmental options (No Env. Journal, clinic or center). I am not 100% committed to environmental, but if a gun was to my head and I had to pick that’s what I would say.

Love PNW, especially Portland and the Midwest, although I had lived in the Midwest for my whole life prior to moving to the SW 2 years ago for work.
Last edited by theavrock on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:07 am, edited 8 times in total.

crit_racer
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Re: UW/L&C/Tulane/Emory - Thoughts?

Postby crit_racer » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:04 pm

IF you are cool w/ living and working in WI, I would probably go there. To me, there is a huge difference b/w Madison and Portland, but if you are cool w/ Madison, I would just do that. The lack of enviro offerings is just a sacrifice you would have to be OK with, I guess.

Emory is good, but 170k is a lot of debt. Do you have UG loans? I know they tout a big game when it comes to PI, but I don't know how good their LRAP actually is. Have you looked into each school's LRAP?

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Re: UW/L&C/Tulane/Emory - Thoughts?

Postby lawboy81 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:28 pm

Wisconsin dominates your home state and it's fairly cheap. Go with it.

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theavrock
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Re: UW/L&C/Tulane/Emory - Thoughts?

Postby theavrock » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:56 pm

Yea I would be fine in Wisconsin. Family is there and I love the state. Honestly if it wasn't for the awful weather I would still probably be living there. I moved 2 years ago to New Mexico, but am ready to get out of the SW.

I've looked in to LRAP and probably would be using the school's LRAP/IBR because of the PI commitment. Emory's LRAP seems decent, but you're right paying 80K more for Emory seems like a lot. I am just not convinced that would be the right call.

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Re: UW/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:08 pm

shameless bump to try and elicit more opinions

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby alexonfyre » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:23 pm

You have really picked some very equal options (sans Emory, there is some BAD stuff going on over there, if you believe the stories.)
I think the best advice we can give is to visit all of them and pick which one you fall in love with. I picked Tulane in the poll because I am originally from NOLA and believe that anyone who goes there will fall in love with it.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby ELS2010 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:43 am

I think if you visit Emory, chances are high that you'll decide to go there. It makes a lot of sense for what you want to do (look into the Turner clinic - really neat stuff).

Then again, I may be biased in that I cannot imagine going somewhere where there's still going to be snow on the ground when all the girls around here are wearing sun dresses. Law school is miserable enough as it is.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:06 pm

Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.

Wisconsin is the cheapest, which is something to consider.

Tulane is the best for environmental law (journal, professors, institute, certificate, etc.). I spoke with some people with the EPA in Atlanta and they thought very highly of Tulane's environmental law program (the courses, certificate, and professors - Houck was specifically mentioned).

Emory costs too much and Lewis and Clark is relatively unknown.

I would decide how badly I wanted environmental law.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby bartleby » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:07 pm

wisc. all day

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:31 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.
.


That's the number I remember from the acceptance letter. They actually called it out and said they can tell me 3.0 was roughly top 57%.

I dont have it in front of me so I could be remembering wrong.

Thanks for all the great comments. I'm a little surprised about the Emory love in here based on how expensive it is. Also surprised about the lack of love for L&C.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:57 pm

theavrock wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.
.


That's the number I remember from the acceptance letter. They actually called it out and said they can tell me 3.0 was roughly top 57%.

I dont have it in front of me so I could be remembering wrong.

Thanks for all the great comments. I'm a little surprised about the Emory love in here based on how expensive it is. Also surprised about the lack of love for L&C.


FWIW, I would go to L&C before I went to Emory. 8)

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:03 pm

alexonfyre wrote:
theavrock wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.
.


That's the number I remember from the acceptance letter. They actually called it out and said they can tell me 3.0 was roughly top 57%.

I dont have it in front of me so I could be remembering wrong.

Thanks for all the great comments. I'm a little surprised about the Emory love in here based on how expensive it is. Also surprised about the lack of love for L&C.


FWIW, I would go to L&C before I went to Emory. 8)


Interesting. Why do you say that?

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby flcath » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:12 pm

I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but conceiving of that type of debt (which can be done casually) is a world away from having that type of debt (which is soul-crushing, and induces panic at random moments throughout the day).

Do something else. I'm not being elitist or saying you're not good enough; quite the opposite. Law school is not prestigious, nor lucrative. Save yourself; do something else.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:24 pm

flcath wrote:I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but conceiving of that type of debt (which can be done casually) is a world away from having that type of debt (which is soul-crushing, and induces panic at random moments throughout the day).

Do something else. I'm not being elitist or saying you're not good enough; quite the opposite. Law school is not prestigious, nor lucrative. Save yourself; do something else.


I appreciate the comment but I've done my research.

I have a "lucrative" job right now that I hate. I'm not going in to law for the prestige or to make a bunch of money. I have shadowed lawyers and talked to them for the last three years. I actually want to be a lawyer as strange as that sounds.

So again I appreciate the comment but I'd really like to keep this from a thread about wheter to go to law school or not

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:32 pm

IMO you should either go to Tulane or you should retake and reapply. It makes no sense to pay 90k for a school(WI) in an area you probably do not want to be in when they do not have a program you want(enviro). You are significantly reducing your chances to break into enviro if you go to a school with no No Env. Journal, clinic or center.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby crit_racer » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:34 pm

gwuorbust wrote:IMO you should either go to Tulane or you should retake and reapply. It makes no sense to pay 90k for a school(WI) in an area you probably do not want to be in when they do not have a program you want(enviro). You are significantly reducing your chances to break into enviro if you go to a school with no No Env. Journal, clinic or center.


OP says he DOES want to be in WI and isn't hell bent on enviro. Makes WISCO seem like a good option to me, but I think OP should come to terms w/ the fact that enviro probably won't happen from there (not that it's likely to happen from any other school...)

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:44 pm

crit_racer wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:IMO you should either go to Tulane or you should retake and reapply. It makes no sense to pay 90k for a school(WI) in an area you probably do not want to be in when they do not have a program you want(enviro). You are significantly reducing your chances to break into enviro if you go to a school with no No Env. Journal, clinic or center.


OP says he DOES want to be in WI and isn't hell bent on enviro. Makes WISCO seem like a good option to me, but I think OP should come to terms w/ the fact that enviro probably won't happen from there (not that it's likely to happen from any other school...)


EDIT: nvr mind. tis what happens when I scan everything but the OP.

EDIT 2: Tulane is still a solid choice IMO with a great enviro program. but that is an extra 40k in debt. is possible enviro work worth 40k to you OP?

there were about 17 ninja edits in here :lol:

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:48 pm

OP is in-state at WI and says his family is there and he's from there. That and the fact that the COA is under $100k is enough of a reason to choose WI.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:50 pm

I only applied to schools in locations I would be happy in. WI would be great because I love the state and family is there. If it were not for the weather I would probably have never moved for work.

That's what my concerns were about WI. Few env. options although I am not hell bent on it.

Remember that those costs are inflated. They take full COL from school websites into consideration when in all honesty I can get by on less, plus I have some savings. Additionally I plan on picking up a bartending gig (did that for 3 years in college) to help cover living costs in 2nd and 3rd year.

I only used COL from schools sites to put everything at a baseline.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:09 pm

theavrock wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.
.


That's the number I remember from the acceptance letter. They actually called it out and said they can tell me 3.0 was roughly top 57%.

I dont have it in front of me so I could be remembering wrong.

Thanks for all the great comments. I'm a little surprised about the Emory love in here based on how expensive it is. Also surprised about the lack of love for L&C.


The first semester median for the 1L class was 3.309.

(I'm just saying)

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby theavrock » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:20 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
theavrock wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Are you certain that a 3.0 at Tulane in only top 57%? Saying that the 3.25-3.0 grade range only accounts for 7% of the class makes no sense. It's closer to 70% or so.
.


That's the number I remember from the acceptance letter. They actually called it out and said they can tell me 3.0 was roughly top 57%.

I dont have it in front of me so I could be remembering wrong.

Thanks for all the great comments. I'm a little surprised about the Emory love in here based on how expensive it is. Also surprised about the lack of love for L&C.


The first semester median for the 1L class was 3.309.

(I'm just saying)



No worries at all. I was actually hoping you would see this thread. I've seen you a lot on Tulane threads and while you definitely support Tulane it always comes across as balanced and reasoned.

This is exactly what the letter said.

"While there is some change from year to year, I can tell you the median GPS for last year's 1L class was 3.056 at the end of the Spring 2010 semester. A grade point average of 3.0 placed students in the top 57% of the class."

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby crit_racer » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:34 pm

grade inflation much? Looks like Tulane is going the way of Loyola LA...

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby alexonfyre » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:23 pm

theavrock wrote:I only applied to schools in locations I would be happy in. WI would be great because I love the state and family is there. If it were not for the weather I would probably have never moved for work.

That's what my concerns were about WI. Few env. options although I am not hell bent on it.

Remember that those costs are inflated. They take full COL from school websites into consideration when in all honesty I can get by on less, plus I have some savings. Additionally I plan on picking up a bartending gig (did that for 3 years in college) to help cover living costs in 2nd and 3rd year.

I only used COL from schools sites to put everything at a baseline.


Granted, I haven't been to WI, but Tulane has more bars within walking distance of campus than any campus I have been to (aside from a couple of the bigger party schools in the nation.) :mrgreen:

As for Emory vs. L&C:
-Portland >> Atlanta
*Less competitive
*Friendlier
*Weathered the recession better

-Having been involved at Emory and worked in the Fulton County Court System, Emory is not the school it was 5-10 years ago. Its reputation is suffering, the career center has been more or less useless to anyone outside of the top 20% and they are producing students with a sense of entitlement greater than that of even superior schools such as Vanderbilt. There have been broad accusations of severe statistics manipulation, I can't back that up, so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe it. I have met many ELS students (I used to use both their and GSU's law library extensively in undergrad,) and they seemed overall much less happy with their education and opportunities than the other three major ATL schools (UGA, Vandy, GSU.) Judges and lawyers in the area said they went less deep into Emory because many of the students seemed blase and not enthusiastic to work with them.
The reason for this (pure speculation, but agreed on by many I have spoken with) is that Emory is putting way more into its medical school than pretty much anything else. They are trying to hang on to their law school's reputation, as it makes them tons of money, but they aren't putting a whole lot of money or effort into maintaining it. It was working for them for a while, but now the cracks are showing in the facade, and it isn't long before the whole thing falls down.
I still believe Emory is a Tier 1 school, simply based on the quality of the faculty there and its history, but it is no longer worth the price of admission, and shouldn't be considered in the same class as Vanderbilt and UCLA as it may have once been.
The hierarchy should be:
Vandy > UGA > GSU/Emory (with GSU much cheaper and gaining reputation by the year.)

On the other hand, L&C has garnered nothing but praise in its small section of the world and they tend to be very generous with their scholarships (on top of an already cheap tuition.) They have amazing facilities and employment numbers that show them really dominating Portland, and placing solidly throughout their region (up to Seattle, down to NorCal.) Plus John Kroger teaches there, and that guy is awesome.

In short, I have heard to many bad things about Emory from too many people across the board from academia to private to PI to students for me to even consider them. Am I biased? Absolutely, but is it unreasonable? Not a chance.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby crit_racer » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:08 am

alexonfyre wrote:
theavrock wrote:I only applied to schools in locations I would be happy in. WI would be great because I love the state and family is there. If it were not for the weather I would probably have never moved for work.

That's what my concerns were about WI. Few env. options although I am not hell bent on it.

Remember that those costs are inflated. They take full COL from school websites into consideration when in all honesty I can get by on less, plus I have some savings. Additionally I plan on picking up a bartending gig (did that for 3 years in college) to help cover living costs in 2nd and 3rd year.

I only used COL from schools sites to put everything at a baseline.


Granted, I haven't been to WI, but Tulane has more bars within walking distance of campus than any campus I have been to (aside from a couple of the bigger party schools in the nation.) :mrgreen:

As for Emory vs. L&C:
-Portland >> Atlanta
*Less competitive
*Friendlier
*Weathered the recession better

-Having been involved at Emory and worked in the Fulton County Court System, Emory is not the school it was 5-10 years ago. Its reputation is suffering, the career center has been more or less useless to anyone outside of the top 20% and they are producing students with a sense of entitlement greater than that of even superior schools such as Vanderbilt. There have been broad accusations of severe statistics manipulation, I can't back that up, so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe it. I have met many ELS students (I used to use both their and GSU's law library extensively in undergrad,) and they seemed overall much less happy with their education and opportunities than the other three major ATL schools (UGA, Vandy, GSU.) Judges and lawyers in the area said they went less deep into Emory because many of the students seemed blase and not enthusiastic to work with them.
The reason for this (pure speculation, but agreed on by many I have spoken with) is that Emory is putting way more into its medical school than pretty much anything else. They are trying to hang on to their law school's reputation, as it makes them tons of money, but they aren't putting a whole lot of money or effort into maintaining it. It was working for them for a while, but now the cracks are showing in the facade, and it isn't long before the whole thing falls down.
I still believe Emory is a Tier 1 school, simply based on the quality of the faculty there and its history, but it is no longer worth the price of admission, and shouldn't be considered in the same class as Vanderbilt and UCLA as it may have once been.
The hierarchy should be:
Vandy > UGA > GSU/Emory (with GSU much cheaper and gaining reputation by the year.)

On the other hand, L&C has garnered nothing but praise in its small section of the world and they tend to be very generous with their scholarships (on top of an already cheap tuition.) They have amazing facilities and employment numbers that show them really dominating Portland, and placing solidly throughout their region (up to Seattle, down to NorCal.) Plus John Kroger teaches there, and that guy is awesome.

In short, I have heard to many bad things about Emory from too many people across the board from academia to private to PI to students for me to even consider them. Am I biased? Absolutely, but is it unreasonable? Not a chance.


Coming from someone who is seriously considering Emory and L&C, I do not think you can back up the claim that L&C places well in its region. It has no clout in Seattle or Norcal, and jobs in Portland are few and far between.

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Re: WI/L&C/Tulane/Emory- which school will least mess up my life

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:14 am

theavrock wrote:

No worries at all. I was actually hoping you would see this thread. I've seen you a lot on Tulane threads and while you definitely support Tulane it always comes across as balanced and reasoned.

This is exactly what the letter said.

"While there is some change from year to year, I can tell you the median GPS for last year's 1L class was 3.056 at the end of the Spring 2010 semester. A grade point average of 3.0 placed students in the top 57% of the class."


I am a 1L here and I can assure you the new median is ~3.25. In the Spring of 2010 it was set at ~3.0, but that has changed. I have seen the breakdowns. The new grading scale started in the Fall of 2011 - hence why the Spring of 2010 would still have a median of 3.056.

. . . what happened is that someone probably just copy-pasted from a previous years scholarship letter. . . fail.




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