Berkeley (sticker) vs. UT (full ride) vs. NU (full ride) Forum

[rayiner]

I don't think law school is going to be fun or anything less than backbreaking nonstop work. Obviously not. But do you really think that all top law schools are essentially the same? That's a genuine question, since you're a 2L and I'm a lowly 0L. Because that's not what schools try to sell you on; they try to convince you to go to a school because of whatever unique aspects set it apart from the competition. Is that all just meaningless?

Northwestern and U Chicago are probably the two T14 schools with the most distinct personalities. People self-select into NU for the work experience angle, and people self-select into U Chicago for the academia angle. Even then, as a 2L at NU with lots of friends at U Chicago, I wouldn't say the distinctions are so extreme that they'd outweigh all the other factors that you have to consider.

Between Harvard and Berkeley, the differences are even less extreme. Harvard is a big school with a diverse student body. Unlike Columbia, for example, it attracts a non-trivial number of people bent on public interest or government service rather than corporate law. And Berkeley LS is not Berkeley UG. Based on what my friends at Berkeley tell me, it is fairly intense.

I wouldn't say all top law schools are the same. I think NU is more laid back than average and U Chicago is more intense than average. But realize that as a student you're not going to be associating with some monolithic student body with a uniform culture. You're going to form cliques with like-minded people who share your particular interests, and there are plenty of people at Harvard to choose from.

[juliachild-ish]

Well you don't exactly seem like a troll to me, but it does seem to me that at the very least you are not well-researched about law schools or the value propositions you face at this point (in terms of employment prospects x debt loads etc). Could be wrong about that too though, and it is possible that maybe money is of no issue to you or you have an awesome job connect for when you graduate; that could mean that you would reasonably look at this differently than the average person probably would. Just IMO.

I have done a fair amount of research in terms of talking to current lawyers, but they don't really have a sense of what things are like for recent graduates, hence the time spent on TLS. If you look back at the original post, you'll see that although money is always an issue, my dad is willing to pay up to half of my law school costs, which significantly lowers my debt burden. And while I don't have a specific job offer on the table after graduation or anything like that, I do have really good connections, in multiple law firms and in the state government. So I guess my situation is a little different than the average person's. Still trying to figure out just how different.

alexonfyre, I almost didn't mention HLS, but it's in my profile (I should probably take it out) and I've mentioned it enough times in other threads that I thought someone would most likely bring it up. I really didn't want the discussion to revolve around that though, which is why it isn't in the thread title and I only mention it at the end of the original post. I'm sorry if it offends people who didn't get accepted or who go there. Let's just say I have an inexplicable anti-Harvard bias and move on. That's not why I started the thread--I only wanted advice on choosing between the three schools mentioned in the thread title.

[dukey]

If you're interested in enviro/energy, then Boalt is the way to go. I was on the ed board of the enviro law journal this year and had an internship in energy law; PM me if you have questions about my experience in the enviro program. Since you're not interested in biglaw/corp law, Boalt has an amazing LRAP program that coupled with the federal program will almost pay off your loans for you. I am going into biglaw myself, so I can't speak to this personally; but I know a ton of people on the enviro journal who are doing this and I could put you in touch with them as a new admit. Good luck in your decision!

I agree with the above - a lot of the posters on this forum are not considering your env. law interest + preference for non-Chicago. Many of them look through the lens of $ & US News, which may be important, but should not carry full weight.

[ImpatientlyWaiting]

I've never understood all the anti-Harvard sentiment on TLS. It usually amounts to baseless speculation about the culture of the school, or about how its students are all "snobby." I've come across no reason to believe that this is anything other than prejudice. I just don't understand where the cynicism comes from, and even if it is justified, do people really think that other top law schools are any different? They largely draw from the same pool of applicants, and many of those applicants choose Harvard simply because of the nearly unmatched opportunities it offers. Does that make them "prestige-whores?" The people I know there cannot be characterized as such.

To clarify, I'm not accusing the OP of saying any of that specifically or that s/he doesn't have legitimate reasons for disliking Harvard, but that's the sense I get from TLS in general. With regard to the OP's question, Harvard IS definitively the right answer here, but I think the second best choice would be to take the money at NU. All things considered, I don't think that Berkeley will open any doors that will be closed to NU grads.

[bk1]

Harvard could relocate to Tijuana or the North Pole, be populated entirely with the most pretentious and snobby people to ever grace this planet, and I would still go to their law school.

What I care about is the 30+ years of post top-law-schools.com. The 3 years spent at law school pales in comparison.

[rayiner]

If you're interested in enviro/energy, then Boalt is the way to go. I was on the ed board of the enviro law journal this year and had an internship in energy law; PM me if you have questions about my experience in the enviro program. Since you're not interested in biglaw/corp law, Boalt has an amazing LRAP program that coupled with the federal program will almost pay off your loans for you. I am going into biglaw myself, so I can't speak to this personally; but I know a ton of people on the enviro journal who are doing this and I could put you in touch with them as a new admit. Good luck in your decision!

I agree with the above - a lot of the posters on this forum are not considering your env. law interest + preference for non-Chicago. Many of them look through the lens of $ & US News, which may be important, but should not carry full weight.

If you have an interest in environmental law, then Harvard is a no-brainer. With due respect to IzziesGal, I'm sure Boalt's program in environmental law is great, but the plum jobs in environmental law are phenomenally competitive, and environmental groups tend to be extremely prestige-concious.

See: http://www.nrdc.org/about/staff/litigation.asp (all Harvard, Stanford, Yale, NYU, and Columbia).

[sarahh]

If you do still want to go to Berkeley, you have to push the NU/UT full tuition scholarships. Yes they might not match them, but they should cough up something. Also, I know you don't want to go to Harvard (and as someone who turned them down for undergrad, I totally get that, Harvard is drastically different than Yale or Stanford), but I hope Berkeley doesn't know that yet. I would definitely keep your Harvard acceptance on the table as a bargaining chip until Berkeley won't budge anymore. If you really want Berkeley and you push hard enough they should give you something. If they don't I would take that as a clear sign of their dire financial situation and would move on. Berkeley at sticker is just not worth the insane costs especially when you have NU for free on the table.

This is very optimistic. I think the general consensus is that they are very stingy with merit aid. I got a full ride at Michigan and an acceptance to Harvard, and Berkeley rejected my matching scholarship. It does not hurt to ask, but I would not count on any money from them. I had to take Berkeley off the table and it was very painful. I own a condo in the Bay Area, my husband has a job here, and I would like to come back here, but I don't think it is sensible to choose Berkeley at sticker over the other options I have.

I went to Harvard for undergrad and it was very difficult at first. I did not think it was a friendly place and I applied to transfer. However, I decided to stay and I am glad I did. The overally atmoshpere was not warm, but I made some good friends after I put in some effort to meet people. And the Harvard degree was definitely an asset when looking for a job. I may have been happier in school if I went to my second choice, but ultimately, the point of going to school is to get a job.

With that being said, with the state of the legal market, I don't think it is crazy to choose a full ride over Harvard. It must suck for the people who took out $150,000+ in loans and cannot find anything.

[alexonfyre]

If you're interested in enviro/energy, then Boalt is the way to go. I was on the ed board of the enviro law journal this year and had an internship in energy law; PM me if you have questions about my experience in the enviro program. Since you're not interested in biglaw/corp law, Boalt has an amazing LRAP program that coupled with the federal program will almost pay off your loans for you. I am going into biglaw myself, so I can't speak to this personally; but I know a ton of people on the enviro journal who are doing this and I could put you in touch with them as a new admit. Good luck in your decision!

I agree with the above - a lot of the posters on this forum are not considering your env. law interest + preference for non-Chicago. Many of them look through the lens of $ & US News, which may be important, but should not carry full weight.

For me, those factors are equivalent to softs, while $ and job prospects are GPA/LSAT. While the softs for berk are great, they aren't enough to outweigh it's 2.9/171. UT could get the nod with solid numbers, and per OP's request I will drop HLS, but despite the anti-Chicago sentiment NU offers the best OVERALL option, even when you consider its drawbacks. One thing that might change that metric for me is if OP is absolutely certain that he or she would be so miserable in Chicago that it would hurt his or her performance, in which case I would sway UT, but not Berk, not for that price, no way.

[IzziesGal]

I really don't understand all of the Berkeley hate on here lately. Berkeley gave me exactly what I wanted - a great 1L summer internship and a 2L SA position at 160k in NYC. If I don't mess up, I'll have my offer for post grad. Most people who wanted firm jobs, got them. People who want gov't work get that as well. I really don't see why everyone thinks we are all sitting around jobless and on the verge of suicide. That's just not the case. And I have no idea why people on this board think it's bad, when it's really not. Sure, there are one or two outliers (the one person I know who had trouble at OCIP was a transfer from a lower tiered school), but almost everyone who interviewed for a firm job, got one. It may not have been his or her first choice, but a 160k gig is a 160k gig.

Edit: I understand that tuition went up thanks to the budget crisis in CA, but between LRAP and biglaw, paying off loans DOES happen.

Edit again: I'm not comparing it to Harvard.

[09042014]

I really don't understand all of the Berkeley hate on here lately. Berkeley gave me exactly what I wanted - a great 1L summer internship and a 2L SA position at 160k in NYC. If I don't mess up, I'll have my offer for post grad. Most people who wanted firm jobs, got them. People who want gov't work get that as well. I really don't see why everyone thinks we are all sitting around jobless and on the verge of suicide. That's just not the case. And I have no idea why people on this board think it's bad, when it's really not. Sure, there are one or two outliers, but almost everyone who interviewed for a firm job, got one. It may not have been his or her first choice, but a 160k gig is a 160k gig.

Nobody is saying Boalt is worse than NU. Just that its 150K more expensive for the same job prospects.

Boalt is worse than Harvard though.

[alexonfyre]

I really don't understand all of the Berkeley hate on here lately. Berkeley gave me exactly what I wanted - a great 1L summer internship and a 2L SA position at 160k in NYC. If I don't mess up, I'll have my offer for post grad. Most people who wanted firm jobs, got them. People who want gov't work get that as well. I really don't see why everyone thinks we are all sitting around jobless and on the verge of suicide. That's just not the case. And I have no idea why people on this board think it's bad, when it's really not. Sure, there are one or two outliers, but almost everyone who interviewed for a firm job, got one. It may not have been his or her first choice, but a 160k gig is a 160k gig.

Berkeley is a great school, and you are probably a superb student to be attending there, however the fact of the matter is that it is the most expensive T14, and it isn't HYS. When comparing at sticker you can make an argument either way, but when other schools are offering lots of money Berk simply can't compete.

It is like paying $150,000 for a yellow Ferrari, or $180,000 for a red Ferrari with the tech package, and then someone offers to give you the yellow Ferrari for free and then you saying "I dunno, I really like those Bose speakers..."

[cornellbeez]

This. First, I think this thread is an elaborate flame.

Second, I'm a 2L (as is rayiner) and I would go to Harvard > NU (full ride) > UT (full ride)/Berkeley (sticker). You guys are over-emphasizing the (probably imagined) differences among schools. It's LAW SCHOOL. It's going to be a ton of work at any of these schools. I can't believe this idealized bullshit. Does the OP think she's going to have "better" classmates at Boalt or UT than NU or Harvard? Most of your classmates at ANY of these schools are going to be workaholic, self-absorbed types. The vast majority at Boalt and UT want biglaw, same with NU and Harvard. The purpose of going to law school is to get a JOB while minimizing your debt as much as possible. This is a professional school, not a party time master's degree in the liberal arts.

I don't think law school is going to be fun or anything less than backbreaking nonstop work. Obviously not. But do you really think that all top law schools are essentially the same? That's a genuine question, since you're a 2L and I'm a lowly 0L. Because that's not what schools try to sell you on; they try to convince you to go to a school because of whatever unique aspects set it apart from the competition. Is that all just meaningless?

There are some cultural differences among law schools, but minimizing debt is so much more important once you get to a certain level of law schools. In other words, don't be an idiot, either take Harvard, or take the money at NU.

As you say, the point is to get a job while minimizing debt, and I'm trying to resolve which half of that goal is more important (better job placement or less debt). Assuming I'm not interested in Northwestern because I'd rather not be in Chicago, I'm trying to figure out if it's better to minimize debt at Texas or get better job placement at Berkeley. Or should I put Northwestern back in the picture because it offers the best combination of job placement and cost (still more expensive than Texas due to much higher COL)?

I would put NU back in the picture. It probably offers better prospects than Boalt and UT, and it's the cheapest.

For me, it'd be between Harvard and NU. Like rayiner mentioned, environmental law jobs are extremely hard to come by. And really, any post-grad government/PI job is hard to find. Due to the economy and government agencies and PI orgs cutting funds, many 2Ls who can get government/PI placement during 2L summer (in other words, working for free with a school stipend) have trouble landing a post-graduate position in the field. There simply aren't enough positions available. Harvard would be the best for pretty much anything - biglaw, academia, PI, gov, but NU would provide decent prospects for free. If you can't find a PI/gov job post-grad, you'd only be out on living costs. A full-ride scholarship >>>>>>>>> relying on LRAP/IBR because the latter is contingent upon you finding a particular kind of job.

[sarahh]

I really don't understand all of the Berkeley hate on here lately. Berkeley gave me exactly what I wanted - a great 1L summer internship and a 2L SA position at 160k in NYC. If I don't mess up, I'll have my offer for post grad. Most people who wanted firm jobs, got them. People who want gov't work get that as well. I really don't see why everyone thinks we are all sitting around jobless and on the verge of suicide. That's just not the case. And I have no idea why people on this board think it's bad, when it's really not. Sure, there are one or two outliers (the one person I know who had trouble at OCIP was a transfer from a lower tiered school), but almost everyone who interviewed for a firm job, got one. It may not have been his or her first choice, but a 160k gig is a 160k gig.

Edit: I understand that tuition went up thanks to the budget crisis in CA, but between LRAP and biglaw, paying off loans DOES happen.

Edit again: I'm not comparing it to Harvard.

But she got into Harvard. Berkeley sounds like a great school, but if one is going to choose based on the best job prospects, regardless of cost, Harvard is the best choice (of the ones presented in this thread). If one is going to choose based on minimizing debt, NU or UT would be the best choice. I personally do not see the justification for choosing Berkeley here.

[IzziesGal]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

[09042014]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

Because it's 150K dollars less. Are all Boalties as thick as you?

[chasgoose]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

0 debt vs. one of (if not the most) expensive law schools in the country is what tips the balance from NU to Berkeley. It's not just a matter of whether or not Berkeley is better than NU, its whether Berkeley is $200k better than NU, which it's not. Harvard is barely 200k better than NU, it only is in the sense that if you want to go to Harvard and you don't qualify for need-based aid, sticker is your only option.

[IzziesGal]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

Because it's 150K dollars less. Are all Boalties as thick as you?

Haha. No, I'm from the NYC metro area originally, and that region of the country does that to a girl. Plus I'm Irish/German, and I've been told that's a particularly stubborn combo.

[bk1]

Because it's 150K dollars less.

Too many posts to read ITT, but this number seems wrong. Shouldn't it be more like 100k? (not that I'm saying it's worth the difference)

Berkeley (non-resident): $224k (1/2 paid for by dad) = $112k
NU (everything but tuition): $72k (1/2 paid for by dad) = $36k

So the difference is more like $80k?

[LettuceBeefRealTea]

everyone here is caught up on the rankings and cash.

she said harvard is out.
her father will pay half of tuition. even at that level, she should have little to no problem paying back. if she does have a serious problem, her dad will most likely bail her out if necessary.
it sounds like she wants to go to berkeley.

i don't see the issue.
cash money isn't everything. otherwise, you would be doing IB. you've got to live your life the way you want to, not on some speculatory notion of life could be like or would have been like if you only made one decision differently. the stereotype of the alcoholic lawyer has been making more and more sense after checking out TLS for a few days.

ITT: people need to read some tropic of cancer or the incredible lightness of being or the plague, etc.

[rayiner]

everyone here is caught up on the rankings and cash.

Dude, stop dropping that red-herring. Nobody is arguing she go to Harvard because of the rankings. The only people mentioning the rankings are the ones telling her to indulge her irrational whims.

Harvard's ranking is not, in and of itself, a reason to go there. At the same time, they're not a reason not to go there.

[09042014]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

Because it's 150K dollars less. Are all Boalties as thick as you?

Haha. No, I'm from the NYC metro area originally, and that region of the country does that to a girl. Plus I'm Irish/German, and I've been told that's a particularly stubborn combo.

Haha I'm an Irish/German combo myself.

[09042014]

Because it's 150K dollars less.

Too many posts to read ITT, but this number seems wrong. Shouldn't it be more like 100k? (not that I'm saying it's worth the difference)

Berkeley (non-resident): $224k (1/2 paid for by dad) = $112k
NU (everything but tuition): $72k (1/2 paid for by dad) = $36k

So the difference is more like $80k?

Do you honeslty think her dad is only going to pay half, but half of whatever she takes? No way. He probably means he can't afford to pay 70K a year but can afford 25-35K a year.

[IzziesGal]

Oy vey. I totally get that she got into Harvard - but she isn't interested in attending law school there. If she were, I would say go to Harvard - absolutely.

I just don't see how Northwestern is a better choice than Berkeley for someone interested in energy/enviro. That's CA's domain - we have some of the most progressive energy policies and enviro laws in the country. Not to mention some of the most progressive decisions for energy and enviro coming out of the Ninth Circuit. All of the big gov't agencies, nonprofits, and boutique energy and enviro firms recruit here. Not to mention the connections you get from Boalt/ELQ alumni. I just think that given her chosen field of interest, NU doesn't make sense.

Because it's 150K dollars less. Are all Boalties as thick as you?

Haha. No, I'm from the NYC metro area originally, and that region of the country does that to a girl. Plus I'm Irish/German, and I've been told that's a particularly stubborn combo.

Haha I'm an Irish/German combo myself.

Ahh ... so then you can appreciate (if not understand) my thickheadedness.

[BrianGriffintheDog]

100k debt for Berkeley sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[rayiner]

100k debt for Berkeley sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Compared to zero at NU?