T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

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Outside of HYS, is paying sticker at a t14 a wise decision for someone who aspires to do PI law?

Yes
15
47%
No
2
6%
Yes, but only CCN
8
25%
Yes, but only MVPB and up
7
22%
 
Total votes: 32

socraticmethodman
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T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:36 am

Outside of HYS, is paying sticker at a t14 a wise decision for someone who aspires to do public interest law? I know this has been discussed in bits and pieces on TLS, but there seems to be two conflicting arguments. The first is that, ITE public interest jobs are almost as selective as biglaw jobs, and going to a prestigious school will give you an upper hand. The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.

I figured it would be a good idea to start a thread on this topic where all arguments can be presented.

Discuss
Last edited by socraticmethodman on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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buckilaw
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby buckilaw » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:42 am

socraticmethodman wrote:The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.


Applicant A has median grades from UVA.

Applicant B has median grades from William and Mary.

Both applicants apply for a PI job based in VA; how do you think this would work out?

Also, while PI work has become harder to get, T14 schools have LRAP's that can help you pay back dedbt. You could also work in Biglaw for 2-3 years to mitigate your debt before you transition to PI work. T14 schools also mitigate the risk that you will be chilling on your parents' couch after graduation.

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snapdragon
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby snapdragon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:50 am

Don't many T14s (I'm thinking particularly NYU) have generous LRAPs? That would certainly influence my decision.

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homestyle28
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:51 am

snapdragon wrote:Don't many T14s (I'm thinking particularly NYU) have generous LRAPs? That would certainly influence my decision.

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:59 am

homestyle28 wrote:
snapdragon wrote:Don't many T14s (I'm thinking particularly NYU) have generous LRAPs? That would certainly influence my decision.


Very true, but what if your choice was between sticker at NYU, or full ride at Fordham or Cardozo? Would the LARP be enough to make you choose NYU?

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:00 am

To the people who have voted no in the poll, would you mind sharing your rational?

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homestyle28
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:04 am

socraticmethodman wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
snapdragon wrote:Don't many T14s (I'm thinking particularly NYU) have generous LRAPs? That would certainly influence my decision.


Very true, but what if your choice was between sticker at NYU, or full ride at Fordham or Cardozo? Would the LARP be enough to make you choose NYU?


While I didn't have to make this exact choice, I did have to choose between NU and a regional T-1, 10 years from now using NU's LRAP I'll have actually paid out ~50-60k and will have paid for LS with infinitely better career prospects. The COL above tuition at the regional t-1 would've been ~45k. So it was a no-brainer.

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buckilaw
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby buckilaw » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:07 am

socraticmethodman wrote:To the people who have voted no in the poll, would you mind sharing your rational?


You did not say what sticker at T14 is compared to. There are also various ranges within T14, CCN, MVPB, DNCG, that creates further ambiguity. I would do NYU at sticker for PI in a heartbeat, Duke or Cornell may give me pause.

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:12 am

buckilaw wrote:
socraticmethodman wrote:To the people who have voted no in the poll, would you mind sharing your rational?


You did not say what sticker at T14 is compared to. There are also various ranges within T14, CCN, MVPB, DNCG, that creates further ambiguity. I would do NYU at sticker for PI in a heartbeat, Duke or Cornell may give me pause.


Thanks for the response, I'll edit the poll.

bdubs
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby bdubs » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:23 am

I assume you are doing PI because you want to make an impact in an area of public interest, not because you hate the idea of biglaw but for some reason still want to be a lawyer.

With this in mind I am assuming that being satisfied with the impact that your position is more important to you than small differences in standard of living. Given that assumption I would certainly choose any T14 (because all have LRAPs that more or less allow for reasonable living standards) over a T2 with a full ride.

The full ride is really only TCR if 1) You don't know what you want to do and are very debt averse 2) you already have a sweet job lined up through connections but need a law degree.

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:24 am

buckilaw wrote:
socraticmethodman wrote:The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.


Applicant A has median grades from UVA.

Applicant B has median grades from William and Mary.

Both applicants apply for a PI job based in VA; how do you think this would work out?


Also, while PI work has become harder to get, T14 schools have LRAP's that can help you pay back debt. You could also work in Biglaw for 2-3 years to mitigate your debt before you transition to PI work. T14 schools also mitigate the risk that you will be chilling on your parents' couch after graduation.


Sorry for not responding earlier, but yes, in this situation Applicant A is the clear winner; however, using your same set up, what if Applicant A has median grades, but Applicant B is top 10%?

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Always Credited
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby Always Credited » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:31 am

socraticmethodman wrote:
buckilaw wrote:
socraticmethodman wrote:The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.


Applicant A has median grades from UVA.

Applicant B has median grades from William and Mary.

Both applicants apply for a PI job based in VA; how do you think this would work out?


Also, while PI work has become harder to get, T14 schools have LRAP's that can help you pay back debt. You could also work in Biglaw for 2-3 years to mitigate your debt before you transition to PI work. T14 schools also mitigate the risk that you will be chilling on your parents' couch after graduation.


Sorry for not responding earlier, but yes, in this situation Applicant A is the clear winner; however, using your same set up, what if Applicant A has median grades, but Applicant B is top 10%?


This is incorrect. For the vast majority of PI/ADA/PD positions, it is never this clear cut. Of course, being at a much better school than your competition will help - but to frame the situation in a way that suggests it is only the prestige of the school that matters for PI work is misleading at best and straight up incorrect at worst.

However, if you phrased it by saying "assuming all other aspects of the process and applicants are equal, and one is UVA and two is W&M, then the UVA applicant will succeed" then it is much more accurate.

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buckilaw
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby buckilaw » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 am

socraticmethodman wrote:
buckilaw wrote:
socraticmethodman wrote:The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.


Applicant A has median grades from UVA.

Applicant B has median grades from William and Mary.

Both applicants apply for a PI job based in VA; how do you think this would work out?


Also, while PI work has become harder to get, T14 schools have LRAP's that can help you pay back debt. You could also work in Biglaw for 2-3 years to mitigate your debt before you transition to PI work. T14 schools also mitigate the risk that you will be chilling on your parents' couch after graduation.


Sorry for not responding earlier, but yes, in this situation Applicant A is the clear winner; however, using your same set up, what if Applicant A has median grades, but Applicant B is top 10%?


I honestly don't know. I'd give the edge to the person in the top 10%, but if you could get top 10% at a given school you can do well at any school. And it's very hard to predict your grades before you take any finals, which is why I'd prefer the leeway that a top scool affords in regard to class rank.

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:36 pm

Any other thoughts?

09042014
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:40 pm

If you are 110% sure that you are doing PI, the t14 have some amazing LRAPs. Hell Gtown if you make under 75K and do PI you pay literally nothing.

neyaae
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby neyaae » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:51 pm

I'm also facing this decision. I've been looking at it from the perspective of the opportunities that are available at the top schools - particularly NYU, which has so much public interest stuff. I got full scholarships at T20's, but I visited IU and was unimpressed by the public interest availability - not to mention the student environment/commitment to PI. I've come to the conclusion that it may be worth the full price, especially considering LRAP, not only because of the possibility of better job prospects (if that's actually true) but because of the better experiences you can have while in law school. And those experiences would certainly look good on a resume. Not that you couldn't get them at a non T14, but I think you'd have to work harder.

Thoughts?

socraticmethodman
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you are 110% sure that you are doing PI, the t14 have some amazing LRAPs. Hell Gtown if you make under 75K and do PI you pay literally nothing.


So if you were certain you wanted PI, would you go to Gtown at sticker over a full ride at GW or American?


I'd like to keep this thread alive as I feel many people are hesitant to go to a t14 at sticker knowing they have no interest in biglaw.

09042014
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:28 pm

socraticmethodman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you are 110% sure that you are doing PI, the t14 have some amazing LRAPs. Hell Gtown if you make under 75K and do PI you pay literally nothing.


So if you were certain you wanted PI, would you go to Gtown at sticker over a full ride at GW or American?


I'd like to keep this thread alive as I feel many people are hesitant to go to a t14 at sticker knowing they have no interest in biglaw.


100% sure? Gtown. But I'm not sure how'd you'd be that sure.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
socraticmethodman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you are 110% sure that you are doing PI, the t14 have some amazing LRAPs. Hell Gtown if you make under 75K and do PI you pay literally nothing.


So if you were certain you wanted PI, would you go to Gtown at sticker over a full ride at GW or American?


I'd like to keep this thread alive as I feel many people are hesitant to go to a t14 at sticker knowing they have no interest in biglaw.


100% sure? Gtown. But I'm not sure how'd you'd be that sure.


This.

Honestly, I know of so many people that went here with PI intentions only to kill it first semester and get offered more money than they have ever made before for a 1L SA position. This really turns the tables, those golden handcuffs are real.

09042014
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:45 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
This.

Honestly, I know of so many people that went here with PI intentions only to kill it first semester and get offered more money than they have ever made before for a 1L SA position. This really turns the tables, those golden handcuffs are real.


Not only that OCI is by far the easiest way to get a job. It requires a tiny bit of ground work, and tons of firms come to school looking to hire you.

Compare that to having to network your way into a 2L summer job that won't even give you an offer. Then hope to network more for a good job. You are left in limbo while everyone else get's a job. I think that's half the reason people sell out.

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Borhas
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Re: T14 at sticker for PI- wise decision?

Postby Borhas » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:39 pm

socraticmethodman wrote:Outside of HYS, is paying sticker at a t14 a wise decision for someone who aspires to do public interest law? I know this has been discussed in bits and pieces on TLS, but there seems to be two conflicting arguments. The first is that, ITE public interest jobs are almost as selective as biglaw jobs, and going to a prestigious school will give you an upper hand. The second argument is that, although PI jobs are selective, the school you attend does not matter. The only things that matters are an applicants grades and dedication to PI.

I figured it would be a good idea to start a thread on this topic where all arguments can be presented.

Discuss


school you attend does matter for some PI jobs

and yes it's wise because IBR+LRAP (it's wise if you're pretty sure you want PI)




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