Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which is the least terrible option?

#1. Columbia or NYU: $325,000
57
27%
#2. Duke: $225,000
50
23%
#4. UCLA: $160,000 - $195,000*
30
14%
#5. WUSTL: $150,000
7
3%
#6. UIUC: $145,000
6
3%
#7. Take a year off and reapply earlier to get better options.
42
20%
#8. Seriously, don't go to law school.
23
11%
 
Total votes: 215

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well-hello-there
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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:22 am

stratocophic wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:
ahduth wrote:The 75k in DEBT absolutely must be considered.

wrong. You could make a case for considering the additional interest that will accrue, but not the $75K.
So you're saying that on the flip side, OP shouldn't consider 75k in the bank in his calculations, but should consider the interest from that 75k.

sorry...that one went way over your head.

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis for each of a few different scenarios (working now to pay off loans v. going straight to law school), then you would want to factor in the different amounts of interest as they accrue to get an accurate picture of just how screwed you'd be if you took that year off in order to work and pay down debt.

HTH

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:23 am

BruceWayne wrote:There is absolutely no way that Columbia is worth 100K more than Duke. That people think that really speaks to the obsession with US News rankings. 100K more? That's absurd. Further for his stated goal (DOJ) going to CLS over Duke won't give him a noticeable leg up. They're going to look at the two schools as being peers and will want to say GPAs above 3.3 at both.


Man, I really, really hate to say this, but I agree with Batman. Duke is pretty clearly the right choice here - it's significantly better than UCLA/WUSTL/etc from a placement standpoint, and as he says, it's not 100k worse than CLS. As far as DOJ goes... you mention all sorts of various legal positions (big time clerkship, prestigious law firm, DOJ, etc). I personally don't get a good sense of what you want to do really. Columbia would probably give you a better entree into "prestigious" law firms, but given your equivocation in terms of your ultimate career goal, I'd keep it simple and go to Duke.

And to boushi? I wasn't trolling. I'm just trying to keep it real in here. :D

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:24 am

well-hello-there wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:
ahduth wrote:The 75k in DEBT absolutely must be considered.

wrong. You could make a case for considering the additional interest that will accrue, but not the $75K.
So you're saying that on the flip side, OP shouldn't consider 75k in the bank in his calculations, but should consider the interest from that 75k.

sorry...that one went way over your head.

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis for each of a few different scenarios (working now to pay off loans v. going straight to law school), then you would want to factor in the different amounts of interest as they accrue to get an accurate picture of just how screwed you'd be if you took that year off in order to work and pay down debt.

HTH


Were you one of Enron's accountants?

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 am

D-ROCCA wrote:in the unfortunate and potentially unlikely event that you end up in a situation where you are unable to secure a high paying job that allows you to pay back your loans

much more unlikely if you choose columbia over dook

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby D-ROCCA » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:28 am

well-hello-there wrote:
D-ROCCA wrote:in the unfortunate and potentially unlikely event that you end up in a situation where you are unable to secure a high paying job that allows you to pay back your loans

much more unlikely if you choose columbia over dook


Show me the NALP stats and then I'll agree with you. Columbia places extremely well, and students there often get very high paying jobs. Do they place better than Duke? I'd argue they do. That's neither here nor there, however.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:28 am

ahduth wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:sorry...that one went way over your head.

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis for each of a few different scenarios (working now to pay off loans v. going straight to law school), then you would want to factor in the different amounts of interest as they accrue to get an accurate picture of just how screwed you'd be if you took that year off in order to work and pay down debt.

HTH


Were you one of Enron's accountants?

that's just finance 101 my friend, finance 101

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:31 am

D-ROCCA wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:
D-ROCCA wrote:in the unfortunate and potentially unlikely event that you end up in a situation where you are unable to secure a high paying job that allows you to pay back your loans

much more unlikely if you choose columbia over dook


Show me the NALP stats and then I'll agree with you. Columbia places extremely well, and students there often get very high paying jobs. Do they place better than Duke? I'd argue they do. That's neither here nor there, however.

uh, yeah it is.

If op ends up at the median at dook, it takes him forever to pay off his loans cuz he's making ~$80K/year. If op ends up at the median at columbia, he still gets a high paying job anywhere in the country.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:32 am

Whatisthis wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Whatisthis wrote:So, the OP’s original debt shouldn’t be viewed as a pure sunk cost, as it has not been paid (though it has been incurred) and, as such, any future decision needs to consider this obligation (e.g. he shouldn’t go and take a job that pays too little to make the necessary payments).


I wasn't referring to you so much as well-hello-there and everyone before you, but since you invited me so kindly to pick apart your definitions, let's have at.

You explicitly tie the debt and the costs, even though they are two entirely distinct accounting concepts. When you say an item has not been paid, though it has been incurred, you could be talking about an accrual of sorts I guess? All of that is okay, I know everyone isn't an accountant.

I do however object to the way sunk cost is being thrown around here. Is his undergraduate tuition a sunk cost? Yes. Do we care if the 75k in debt came from it or some other source? No. He could have 75k in debt from buying a Maserati, and it'd be the same thing in my book. Debt is debt. Calling the 75k a sunk cost might imply that he is throwing good money after bad on the same venture. It's just unnecessary in this context. He has 75k in debt, and now he's considering law school. Done.


My choice of language was not the best, as I was referring to the initial expense and not the debt itself as being the sunk cost. The debt is an existing obligation which must be considered in making future decisions (you still have to make sure you can meet your obligations). I thought I acknowledged this in my first post, but it was sloppy. But even if the debt is not a sunk cost (in that you can’t completely ignore it), the debt already exists… It is important to acknowledge that the decision to go to law school doesn’t change this fact. And assuming that attending law school will put the OP in better financial situation, then the previous debt shouldn’t really factor into the equation (see my original post). Of course, this requires some big assumptions, and also ignores factors like having to work biglaw conditions while barely qualifying as middle class.


Yeah I'm just being a dick about the sunk cost thing, because I'm an accountant and that's what we're do. We sit around being dicks when people try and have normal conversations.

Basically delaying school to pay off the debt is pretty stupid. The OP would have to be able to get a job that netted him income equal to his post-law school salary minus whatever additional interest charges he would have accrued on the 75k had he gone straight to law school. And in that case, he should... not go to law school if it's a strictly financial decision, because he'd already probably be making six figures.

Since it's NOT a strictly financial decision, and he wants to like... be a judge and shit, he should go now. We have the further reason you pointed out (I think), that his post-law school income will be significantly higher, and will allow him to pay off the debt much more easily than if he tried to pay it off now.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby boushi » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 am

ahduth wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:There is absolutely no way that Columbia is worth 100K more than Duke. That people think that really speaks to the obsession with US News rankings. 100K more? That's absurd. Further for his stated goal (DOJ) going to CLS over Duke won't give him a noticeable leg up. They're going to look at the two schools as being peers and will want to say GPAs above 3.3 at both.


Man, I really, really hate to say this, but I agree with Batman. Duke is pretty clearly the right choice here - it's significantly better than UCLA/WUSTL/etc from a placement standpoint, and as he says, it's not 100k worse than CLS. As far as DOJ goes... you mention all sorts of various legal positions (big time clerkship, prestigious law firm, DOJ, etc). I personally don't get a good sense of what you want to do really. Columbia would probably give you a better entree into "prestigious" law firms, but given your equivocation in terms of your ultimate career goal, I'd keep it simple and go to Duke.

And to boushi? I wasn't trolling. I'm just trying to keep it real in here. :D


Haha, I was referring to well-hello-there, not you. You definitely added some clarity in the fog of flailing liberal arts majors. Hell, I even worked for an IB for a bit and have an intuition (often wrong...) for accounting/econ stuff, but I'm not exactly a champ at the nuances of the theory or terminology.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby D-ROCCA » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 am

well-hello-there wrote:
D-ROCCA wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:
D-ROCCA wrote:in the unfortunate and potentially unlikely event that you end up in a situation where you are unable to secure a high paying job that allows you to pay back your loans

much more unlikely if you choose columbia over dook


Show me the NALP stats and then I'll agree with you. Columbia places extremely well, and students there often get very high paying jobs. Do they place better than Duke? I'd argue they do. That's neither here nor there, however.

uh, yeah it is.

If op ends up at the median at dook, it takes him forever to pay off his loans cuz he's making ~$80K/year. If op ends up at the median at columbia, he still gets a high paying job anywhere in the country.


You have been spending too much time on TLS.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:34 am

Guys, I just wanted to say, this thread has been a blast! Thank you very much for the lulz and the memories. I bid you, good night.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby stratocophic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:35 am

well-hello-there wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
well-hello-there wrote:
ahduth wrote:The 75k in DEBT absolutely must be considered.

wrong. You could make a case for considering the additional interest that will accrue, but not the $75K.
So you're saying that on the flip side, OP shouldn't consider 75k in the bank in his calculations, but should consider the interest from that 75k.

sorry...that one went way over your head.

If you were to do a cost/benefit analysis for each of a few different scenarios (working now to pay off loans v. going straight to law school), then you would want to factor in the different amounts of interest as they accrue to get an accurate picture of just how screwed you'd be if you took that year off in order to work and pay down debt.

HTH
No, I get exactly what you're saying. From an efficiency standpoint the interest is the relevant quantity, sure, but there's more than one potential outcome to this problem, and working to get debt down vs. Columbia isn't the only decision branch available. OP isn't guaranteed 160k by any stretch of the imagination from CLS, even if it was the only 2 choice dichotomy available. There's also the possibility that OP gets stuck making 50 or 60k at the bottom of the class. I'm pretty debt averse - that's part of the reason I don't think the other side of the scenario should be downplayed.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby Whatisthis » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:35 am

ahduth wrote:
Yeah I'm just being a dick about the sunk cost thing, because I'm an accountant and that's what we're do. We sit around being dicks when people try and have normal conversations.




CPA dicks turned law students FTW!!!

EDIT: Fellow former accountant here.
Last edited by Whatisthis on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:36 am

ahduth wrote:Basically delaying school to pay off the debt is pretty stupid. The OP would have to be able to get a job that netted him income equal to his post-law school salary minus whatever additional interest charges he would have accrued on the 75k had he gone straight to law school. And in that case, he should... not go to law school if it's a strictly financial decision, because he'd already probably be making six figures.

Since it's NOT a strictly financial decision, and he wants to like... be a judge and shit, he should go now. We have the further reason you pointed out (I think), that his post-law school income will be significantly higher, and will allow him to pay off the debt much more easily than if he tried to pay it off now.

holy $hit! WE AGREE ON EVERYTHING! wtf?

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby TheStrand » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:38 am

boushi wrote:That salary number was not something I came up with; it's just what the fed govt's loan repayment website automatically suggested. I realize that even a much lower salary could bear that amount of loans. I merely reposted the website's entire "print out" as a rough example of the kinds of numbers that are being thrown around here. Honestly, I don't know how IBR works in practical terms for high salary earners. I suppose that would be pertinent info for the OP.

For reference, the calculator I used is here:
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

Right sorry in retrospect that's kind of silly that I didn't notice that was a copy and paste. There's no salary cap for IBR per se. You just have to have partial economic hardship (okay, and a few other qualifiers like you can't be in default, or have any of those loans be ParentPlus, but that's fairly uncommon I would think), which according to your calculations is less than 235k for a single person household. Pretty unlikely OP's going to make more than that so IBR is a pretty good bet for him. IMO TLS frequently underrates IBR. If you're taking out enough in loans that you think you're going to be a metaphorical slave for the next 30 years or that you're going to have to give up 2/3 of every paycheck, then you can probably get IBR.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:40 am

stratocophic wrote:No, I get exactly what you're saying. From an efficiency standpoint the interest is the relevant quantity, sure, but there's more than one potential outcome to this problem, and working to get debt down vs. Columbia isn't the only decision branch available. OP isn't guaranteed 160k by any stretch of the imagination from CLS, even if it was the only 2 choice dichotomy available. There's also the possibility that OP gets stuck making 50 or 60k at the bottom of the class. I'm pretty debt averse - that's part of the reason I don't think the other side of the scenario should be downplayed.

bolded is the ONLY part I disagree with.
I disagree to a matter of degrees. I think OP is virtually guaranteed $160K as long as he is willing to do biglaw and he doesn't screw up royally with his/her grades.
Last edited by well-hello-there on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby D-ROCCA » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:43 am

well-hello-there wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
No, I get exactly what you're saying. From an efficiency standpoint the interest is the relevant quantity, sure, but there's more than one potential outcome to this problem, and working to get debt down vs. Columbia isn't the only decision branch available. OP isn't guaranteed 160k by any stretch of the imagination from CLS, even if it was the only 2 choice dichotomy available. There's also the possibility that OP gets stuck making 50 or 60k at the bottom of the class. I'm pretty debt averse - that's part of the reason I don't think the other side of the scenario should be downplayed.

bolded is the ONLY part I disagree with.
I disagree to a matter of degrees. I think OP is virtually guaranteed $160K as long as he is willing to do biglaw and he doesn't screw up royally with his/her grades.[/quote]

Ya, so, that's wrong. Columbia gives him great job prospects, but it does not virtually guarantee $160k. I don't wish to get caught up in this, but I think that everyone can agree that this comes down to how debt-averse the OP is. Whether or not the OP is willing to take on this kind of debt for the potential job prospects of Columbia is up for him to decide. Everything else, to an extent, is semantics.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:46 am

D-ROCCA wrote: this comes down to how debt-averse the OP is. Whether or not the OP is willing to take on this kind of debt for the potential job prospects of Columbia is up for him to decide.


well-hello-there wrote:
wikipedia wrote: In economics and business decision-making, sunk costs are retrospective (past) costs that have already been incurred and cannot be recovered.....Evidence from behavioral economics suggests this theory fails to predict real-world behavior. Sunk costs greatly affect actors' decisions, because many humans are loss-averse and thus normally act irrationally when making economic decisions.....Sunk costs should not affect the rational decision-maker's best choice.

If you consider the $75K in your decision making process, you are acting irrationally.

don't act irrationally

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby stratocophic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:53 am

well-hello-there wrote:
stratocophic wrote:No, I get exactly what you're saying. From an efficiency standpoint the interest is the relevant quantity, sure, but there's more than one potential outcome to this problem, and working to get debt down vs. Columbia isn't the only decision branch available. OP isn't guaranteed 160k by any stretch of the imagination from CLS, even if it was the only 2 choice dichotomy available. There's also the possibility that OP gets stuck making 50 or 60k at the bottom of the class. I'm pretty debt averse - that's part of the reason I don't think the other side of the scenario should be downplayed.

bolded is the ONLY part I disagree with.
I disagree to a matter of degrees. I think OP is virtually guaranteed $160K as long as he is willing to do biglaw and he doesn't screw up royally with his/her grades.
Yeah, with the economy recovering and NY leading the way, I don't think that's an irrational viewpoint re: the normal OCI participant at CLS, like it would have been a year or two ago... but my hangup is that OP's risk is still a lot higher given the extra 75k. If there's another hiccup in the market or outright nosedive, if OP turns out to be an abrasive or exceedingly awkward interviewee, if OP's grades are anywhere from bottom 50% to bottom 20% (depending on the state of the market)... I still think there's a fair amount of risk involved in CLS. I don't know that Duke's scholarship is enough to insulate OP from that risk pwning him almost as badly as the worse case scenario at CLS, but it wouldn't be that worse than the average person taking Duke at sticker, I suppose. Possibility of making 50k from any of the schools, and the % chance of that decreases as you move up, but the debt also increases a lot as you move up... rough choice all around.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby Stanford4Me » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:54 am

ITT, why-hello-there horribly misapplies the theory of sunk costs, which, in and of itself, is only a theoretical framework (a poor one IMO) that hopelessly tries to direct decision making.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby well-hello-there » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 am

Stanford4Me wrote:the theory of sunk costs, which, ... , is only a theoretical framework (a poor one IMO) that hopelessly tries to direct decision making.

you poor, poor, silly person. Theoretical! LOL
edit: Hopelessly! LOL
2nd edit: and you're just mad that you didn't go to columbia...subtle NYU troll

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby barry » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:12 am

Go to Duke, Columbia a little better but not a 100k better not even close

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby adt231 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:15 pm

Not quite the consensus I was hoping for, but many of you have offered very, very helpful advice. I was not really seriously considering taking a year or 2 off, but perhaps that would be the best option.

The worry that I have with doing this is that I do not have a 60k/yr job right now so I'm not confident that I'll be able to make a substantial dent in my UG debt with the time off. If that's the case, then which option is best?

The Duke option is basically me paying sticker since the scholarship they are offering me nearly offsets my UG debt. UCLA's offer, if I can somehow get a guarantee on my scholarship, is also not a bad option so long as I am willing to stay in SoCal for quite a while. Columbia or NYU seems too expensive at this point to make it worth that much more than Duke or the others. And UIUC might be cheaper than I've actually predicted but again, I'd need to be cool with living in Illinois for the long haul which I'm not too fond of (unless I'm in Chicago).

I'm still undecided as ever, but this has been helpful. Anyone else want to chime in or have anything else to add?

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby stratocophic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:25 pm

adt231 wrote:Not quite the consensus I was hoping for, but many of you have offered very, very helpful advice. I was not really seriously considering taking a year or 2 off, but perhaps that would be the best option.

The worry that I have with doing this is that I do not have a 60k/yr job right now so I'm not confident that I'll be able to make a substantial dent in my UG debt with the time off. If that's the case, then which option is best?

The Duke option is basically me paying sticker since the scholarship they are offering me nearly offsets my UG debt. UCLA's offer, if I can somehow get a guarantee on my scholarship, is also not a bad option so long as I am willing to stay in SoCal for quite a while. Columbia or NYU seems too expensive at this point to make it worth that much more than Duke or the others. And UIUC might be cheaper than I've actually predicted but again, I'd need to be cool with living in Illinois for the long haul which I'm not too fond of (unless I'm in Chicago).

I'm still undecided as ever, but this has been helpful. Anyone else want to chime in or have anything else to add?
UIUC pretty much places only in Chicago. Still risky since you'd still be paying a lot. I think Duke's your best option at this point. CLS has a terrible potential downside, Duke limits risk. Working to pay off your debt right now probably isn't a good idea since you won't make enough to dent it as quickly as you would with a legal job. Even a low paying PI job or gov't position would allow you to make use of the LRAP (but is your pre-existing 75k federal? That's worth considering) if you didn't make Biglaw. Take Duke this cycle, IMO.

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Re: Which is the least terrible choice: T6, T14$, T16$$, T25$$$?

Postby adt231 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:50 pm

Let's assume I'm looking at 165k at UCLA and 215k at Duke. Is Duke worth the extra 50k here?

Given how close the NLJ 250 placement was for 2010 grads, it does not seem worth it. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2011/03/class-of-2010-nlj-250-statistics/

Or am I putting too much stock in this? (since despite cornell kicking ass if i had the choice i would still attend all of the other ivy options instead even with perhaps 50k+ less in money).

edit: fixed my conjugation mistake lol




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