Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

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MaxWeber
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Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby MaxWeber » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:56 pm

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Last edited by MaxWeber on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rule11
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby Rule11 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:15 pm

One note: SLS does have a grade comparable to the LP (it's called an RK), although it is discretionary (but people do get them, even when they've taken the class seriously).

Casey2889
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby Casey2889 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:59 pm

bump. i'd like to hear some thoughts on this as well.

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The Stig
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby The Stig » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:06 pm

Interesting approach to the analysis-have you visited either school yet?

rundoxierun
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:25 pm

TLS never fails to surprise me with increasingly silly ways to separate schools on the same level with horrible criteria.

Here is a clue: none of this stuff matters that much (w/ regards to these specific schools). Visit the schools and pick the one you like best

Both schools meet the thresholds for favorable grading systems, good alumni networks, and both produce a lot of article III clerks(Stanford has higher percentage but Harvard produces over 100/yr. which indicates that peopel outside of law review get it). Objective differences are marginal.

Cue the random baseless speculation that is about to follow.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:37 pm

im going to +1 tkgrrett because these are, overall, really small differences that will probably not noticeably affect your chances at employment, assuming you dont have very specific aspirations

buuut ill answer the questions to the best extent of my limited knowledge:

1) H/P/LP -- sounds like our grading system is like SLS's. here, ~36% get Hs and everyone else Ps. LPs are discretionary, though i don't think they ever go above 8% (some profs give 0 out of course). DS (dean scholar) exists as well for the top ~1% of a course, but this is discretionary so a prof may give 0 of these too. (btw HLS class sizes are 80)

2) imo, HLS law review is more prestigious than SLS, but im going on weak anecdotal evidence. you're certainly not damned for a top firm if you dont make law review, though for the very best, i think good grades are expected in either HLS or SLS. professors all seem nice and are great...many are the top of their respective fields and both approachable and helpful. ive been very impressed/happy with the teaching faculty here at HLS. that being said, i had a visiting prof from SLS too and he was amazing. so im sure you're getting great profs at either school. HLS also has a lot of great journals that you could try to obtain editorship in...worth the gamble? iunno, are you seriously asking me if it is a 'gamble' to pick HLS over SLS simply because you might have a 10-15% better chance of landing on law review at the latter school? lol

3) some may disagree with me on this, but i am a true believer of the fact that for things OUTSIDE of law, the Harvard brand is much stronger than the Stanford brand (non-legal and lay). in the legal field, for the most part, im sure you will not see any noticeable differences. i certainly know i really appreciate the HLS alumni base and brand recognition. in fact, it may be possible that the alumni base and brand recognition were the most important things that helped me get a 1L summer firm position.

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YourCaptain
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:45 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Both schools meet the thresholds for favorable grading systems both produce a lot of article III clerks(Stanford has higher percentage but Harvard produces over 100/yr. which indicates that peopel outside of law review get it). Objective differences are marginal.


I'm legitimately surprised that you would say that; Harvard's EIP results suggest that its large class size did not mesh well with its grading system and proved unwieldy in assessing students come interview time. It just means that instead of A/A-/B+/B etc. the margins are more difficult to separate, making it great for students around the 25% marker but less beneficial for those around median, leading to more uncertainty.

Furthermore, if S places a higher % and H places a higher #, wouldn't you want a statistically better chance?

OP's analysis (especially the thing about IP vs. Gov't) seems misguided; the trends put out are probably more due to the type of candidate that the respective schools admit (S has the whole 'holistic' thing going I suppose...) and their geographic location is probably even more determinative (N CA = tech) but even so these are silly distinctions.

I agree with DoubleChecks though - the 'Harvard' brand is very strong outside of law and supposing you wanted to do some sort of corporate work outside of firm work or the like I think the brand would have greater heft there.

OP, I would definitely visit both, and make a serious trip of each to discern which you'd really like more.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:50 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Both schools meet the thresholds for favorable grading systems both produce a lot of article III clerks(Stanford has higher percentage but Harvard produces over 100/yr. which indicates that peopel outside of law review get it). Objective differences are marginal.


I'm legitimately surprised that you would say that; Harvard's EIP results suggest that its large class size did not mesh well with its grading system and proved unwieldy in assessing students come interview time. It just means that instead of A/A-/B+/B etc. the margins are more difficult to separate, making it great for students around the 25% marker but less beneficial for those around median, leading to more uncertainty.


I'm curious, what EIP results are you talking about? the 2009 ones? There's been a lot of discussion on those numbers, and how various interpretations have been really incorrect (having offer %'s at 60-something% for 2Ls, which is inaccurate). Either way though, I'm a bit unsure as to how the HLS grading system relative to SLS's is a negative factor here. Didn't OP say that SLS has H/P where ~30% get H's? This sounds nearly identical to the HLS grading system lol.

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YourCaptain
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:55 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
I'm curious, what EIP results are you talking about? the 2009 ones? There's been a lot of discussion on those numbers, and how various interpretations have been really incorrect (having offer %'s at 60-something% for 2Ls, which is inaccurate). Either way though, I'm a bit unsure as to how the HLS grading system relative to SLS's is a negative factor here. Didn't OP say that SLS has H/P where ~30% get H's? This sounds nearly identical to the HLS grading system lol.


Ah, didn't see that. You might be right then; it might work out the same way.

Casey2889
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby Casey2889 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:11 pm

potentially silly question, but what are "EIP" numbers? doublechecks, is that your source for the 36% H figure at HLS? if so, that sounds awfully generous and definitely something that gets buried on TLS....oh TLS....

curious to hear about professor access/rec writing success at HLS from HLS students. i think that was a part of OP's initial "analysis"

MaxWeber
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby MaxWeber » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:14 pm

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Last edited by MaxWeber on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:38 pm

MaxWeber wrote:
Casey2889 wrote:curious to hear about professor access/rec writing success at HLS from HLS students. i think that was a part of OP's initial "analysis"


ridiculousness of this post aside (sorry), yes, that is something i'd like to hear.


what's ridiculous about it? lol

short of anecdotal evidence (i dont have any for myself), how would you even get a realistic sample of "success rates" for approaching HLS professors on recs? haha

all i can say on this subject is that they are all very helpful, nice, and seem receptive to writing recommendations for students. doing well in the class and getting the know the profs during office hours will certainly help in the strength of the rec, but isnt that true for all recommendations everywhere? lol

some professors (technically all) have HLS-paid lunches with students as well...usually groups of 8 or so whenever students want to sign up for them. i guess that is sort of a way they can go out of the way to get to know you outside of the classroom early on.
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:40 pm

Casey2889 wrote:potentially silly question, but what are "EIP" numbers? doublechecks, is that your source for the 36% H figure at HLS? if so, that sounds awfully generous and definitely something that gets buried on TLS....oh TLS....

curious to hear about professor access/rec writing success at HLS from HLS students. i think that was a part of OP's initial "analysis"


technically, i think all the %'s are just "suggested curves"...but they tend to be followed. as of now, it is ~36% Hs, rest Ps. discretionary DS (top ~1%) and discretionary LPs (i cant imagine it ever going above 8% for a class). my source is the HLS academic handbook lol.

EIP = OCI.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Why does this thread have so many "scare quotes"?

Casey2889
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby Casey2889 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:36 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Casey2889 wrote:potentially silly question, but what are "EIP" numbers? doublechecks, is that your source for the 36% H figure at HLS? if so, that sounds awfully generous and definitely something that gets buried on TLS....oh TLS....

curious to hear about professor access/rec writing success at HLS from HLS students. i think that was a part of OP's initial "analysis"


technically, i think all the %'s are just "suggested curves"...but they tend to be followed. as of now, it is ~36% Hs, rest Ps. discretionary DS (top ~1%) and discretionary LPs (i cant imagine it ever going above 8% for a class). my source is the HLS academic handbook lol.

EIP = OCI.


i didn't see it on the handbook online (--LinkRemoved--)...do you have another link?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:45 pm

Visit & decide which law school you prefer; then enroll at Stanford.

My view of law schools:

Yale, Stanford & Chicago.

Harvard & Columbia.

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powerlawyer06
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby powerlawyer06 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:54 pm

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Last edited by powerlawyer06 on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Casey2889
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby Casey2889 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:37 pm

cool story bro (if its true), but why be so cryptic when it is completely clear that you are talking about sandra day o'connor? you clerk for her or something?

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powerlawyer06
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby powerlawyer06 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:10 pm

So it doesn't show up in the search function. Big brother is watching and I don't want to out who I am IRL.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:49 pm

Casey2889 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Casey2889 wrote:potentially silly question, but what are "EIP" numbers? doublechecks, is that your source for the 36% H figure at HLS? if so, that sounds awfully generous and definitely something that gets buried on TLS....oh TLS....

curious to hear about professor access/rec writing success at HLS from HLS students. i think that was a part of OP's initial "analysis"


technically, i think all the %'s are just "suggested curves"...but they tend to be followed. as of now, it is ~36% Hs, rest Ps. discretionary DS (top ~1%) and discretionary LPs (i cant imagine it ever going above 8% for a class). my source is the HLS academic handbook lol.

EIP = OCI.


i didn't see it on the handbook online (--LinkRemoved--)...do you have another link?


Hm you got me, i dont see it either in there on a quick skim...but i know ive read it or heard it from OCS...haha I recall it was a very reputable source, pretty sure in print because it had other details like how the suggested curve does not apply to classes with less than 22? 24? students. Something like that. And besides that though, it is pretty common knowledge among all HLS students here that Hs are given out at roughly 36%...the only discrepancies i have EVER heard from anyone about the # of Hs was whether it was somewhere else between 34%-38%, which give or take may be an extra/less one H per class (though 36% i believe was what i saw in writing).

notanumber
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby notanumber » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:56 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Here is a clue: none of this stuff matters that much (w/ regards to these specific schools). Visit the schools and pick the one you like best

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ahduth
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby ahduth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:26 pm

notanumber wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Here is a clue: none of this stuff matters that much (w/ regards to these specific schools). Visit the schools and pick the one you like best


Yeah. These threads where people try to get TLS to tell them how to pick between HYS in particular are silly.

What movie is your tar from notanumber?

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:39 pm

Harvard or Stanford? What a horrible dilemma! I should consider myself lucky to not have this decision to make

Image

notanumber
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby notanumber » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:15 pm

ahduth wrote:
notanumber wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Here is a clue: none of this stuff matters that much (w/ regards to these specific schools). Visit the schools and pick the one you like best


Yeah. These threads where people try to get TLS to tell them how to pick between HYS in particular are silly.

What movie is your tar from notanumber?


Hey. My tar and name are from the TV show the prisoner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner

MaxWeber
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Re: Harvard v. Stanford (A Different Approach)

Postby MaxWeber » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:15 pm

so i've seen both and my impression, for what it's worth, is that SLS is a great law school and probably a better (healthier) place to live. however, i felt that SLS is somewhat nontraditional in its "vibe" and that students were detached/less interested in political circles. harvard is def bigger and more intimidating, but it feels like the place where future national leaders are groomed, and (regardless of its veracity) that's inspiring to me. so at this point i'm leaning HLS.




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