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alexanderhamilton
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Postby alexanderhamilton » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:35 pm

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Last edited by alexanderhamilton on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:34 pm

That a horrible stip for Camden, but even assuming you lose it means you won't pay all that much (probably 35-55k in tuition dpending on scholarship retention)---however you should be ready to be happy with NJ gov or South Jersey smallaw

I'd still take it over Penn State if you want Philly.

What are the stips at Nova?

keg411
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby keg411 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:56 pm

bigkahuna2020 wrote:That a horrible stip for Camden, but even assuming you lose it means you won't pay all that much (probably 35-55k in tuition dpending on scholarship retention)---however you should be ready to be happy with NJ gov or South Jersey smallaw

I'd still take it over Penn State if you want Philly.

What are the stips at Nova?


I am a 1L at Camden. Yes, the stip is high but in-state tuition is only ~$23-25k/year (OP will not be paying $55k if he loses his scholarship) and you will get that by that point because it is extremely easy to establish residency in NJ (many even establish residency before 1L). I also agree that you have to be happy with working in NJ as opposed to Philly and your chances of BigLaw are low (though they are probably lower at Penn State). Also, there is a lower stip where you keep part of your scholarship at a 3.3. If Camden institutes the new curve they proposed (which they might), the stips will also likely change.

I don't know how much 'Nova's tuition is, or if you would pay less with or without their scholarship, but you should pick whichever is cheaper assuming you lose both scholarships (unless Nova's scholarship stip is something like "good standing" and isn't a GPA or rank % requirement).

OP, feel free to PM me if you have any more questions about Camden and I can and will answer them honestly.

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sUkNoIrzTforEall
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby sUkNoIrzTforEall » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:59 pm

Caveat emptor: I know nothing about the Philly legal market, but eliminated Rutgers-Newark w/ 8k from my choices in favor of Penn State, which has favorably impressed me every step of the way this cycle.

That said, I want to practice on the west coast. Still having trouble waving goodbye to PSU.

alexanderhamilton
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Postby alexanderhamilton » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:02 pm

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Last edited by alexanderhamilton on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wholigan
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby Wholigan » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:38 pm

alexanderhamilton wrote:For Villanova this is the email I got, no stips mentioned:

Thank you for the information about your scholarship awards. I am please to tell you that we are prepared to offer you a $20,000 per year Dean’s Merit award. A more detailed letter about your award will be sent to you shortly.

In order to evaluate the value of this award, you should take into consideration the cost of tuition and fees, and the cost of living, for each of the schools you are considering. What we are offering will cover 53% of our tuition and fees.


I'm already a resident of NJ (and attend Rutgers-NB) so I'll have in-state tuition off the bat. I'm ok with living in NJ, though I probably would prefer either NY or PA, or DC over it. But oh well its not on the cards. I'm not into biglaw so that's alright. Federal, state, mid to smalllaw, public interest is all fine with me.


Wait for the letter to come regarding the Villanova scholarship. If the stipulation is only "good standing" that means your expected tuition costs (not including COL, which should be about the same) will be about equal for Rutgers and Villanova, assuming you have about a 25% chance of keeping the full Rutgers scholarship, and about a 15% chance of keeping 2/3 of it, although as mentioned the Rutgers rules might change.

Nova: 3 x ($38k - 20k) = $54k
Rutgers: ($24k - $10k) + (2 x $24k - .25($20k) + .15($13.5k)) = ~ $55k

Therefore, if you'd prefer PA to NJ, you should probably take Villanova since you will have somewhat of a better alumni network in Philly with Villanova. However, again be sure the Nova scholarship doesn't have GPA stips, and don't foreclose additional negotiations if you haven't yet done so.

alexanderhamilton
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby alexanderhamilton » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:42 pm

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Last edited by alexanderhamilton on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby keg411 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:26 pm

alexanderhamilton wrote:Do you think it might be possible to negotiate away, or down the stips from Camden? Kind of an awkward thing to bring up, "Hey why don't you drop the stips from the merit scholarship you gave me because I'm afraid I might not meet it." :?


I tried asking last year and got no response. But if you mention your 'Nova scholarship has no stips, maybe they'll listen.

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Wholigan
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby Wholigan » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:28 pm

keg411 wrote:
alexanderhamilton wrote:Do you think it might be possible to negotiate away, or down the stips from Camden? Kind of an awkward thing to bring up, "Hey why don't you drop the stips from the merit scholarship you gave me because I'm afraid I might not meet it." :?


I tried asking last year and got no response. But if you mention your 'Nova scholarship has no stips, maybe they'll listen.


Agreed it's worth a try. I was able to negotiate with them successfully, although not on the stip - I did not try since I wasn't aware it was something you could do at the time.

It's not like they are going to change their mind about admitting you because they are offended you tried to negotiate. FWIW, the 3.5 stip is one of the most stringent around. I would wait until you get all the details from Villanova (you never want to make a misrepresentation about the other scholarship if you aren't sure of the details), and if it's "good standing," let Rutgers know. The fact that you have a scholarship with a higher dollar amount and a much more favorable stip from a peer school in the same region gives your argument a fair amount of merit.

alexanderhamilton
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby alexanderhamilton » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:38 pm

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Last edited by alexanderhamilton on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wholigan
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby Wholigan » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:05 pm

My friend who is the law prof at Penn thinks that (Penn State) is the best option. She said this:

"Of those 3, I think his best bet would be Penn State. Penn State has been constantly going up in the rankings whereas Rutgers has been pretty stagnant or even has gone down in recent years. The students are actually doing pretty good on the job front. But, if he does choose Penn State, make sure he chooses the University park campus and not the Carlisle campus. The new professors that have been stolen from top schools around the country are all at the University park campus."


Disclaimer: I am not involved in any legal hiring.

However, it is my opinion that some professors are woefully ignorant of current hiring practices, especially involving students at schools other than their own. Other professors are better informed, but I don't think you can take someone's word as gospel in regard to career prospects simply because they are a law professor. Ask yourself what Penn State will offer you that is worth paying an extra $20k per year. If you can find a good reason, then go for it. But don't let it be because law professors recognize the names of their favorite producers of intellectual masturbation (law review articles) among the faculty at Penn State.

If your reason is that you'd rather work in the central Pennsylvania area, that may be a compelling reason. But PSU is not known to place well outside of that region. Just as an example, because I was curious myself, I just looked up 8 of the 9 largest law firms in Philadelphia (one doesn't let you search by law school). There are a total of two PSU grads from the 2008-2010 graduating classes working at those 8 firms. All of these schools are regional, so it's important to know the region you are likely to end up with going in.

Edit: I forgot you don't know if you are getting any money from PSU. If you end up getting enough where it will cost about the same as the other two schools, that could be a different story. But still consider the region you want to be in.

alexanderhamilton
Posts: 85
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby alexanderhamilton » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:06 am

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Last edited by alexanderhamilton on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NothingRlyMattress
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby NothingRlyMattress » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:05 am

I have very similar numbers and just I got into similar schools. Penn State'll probably give you $20,000/year if you maintain 3.0, which is also not a bad deal. ~120k education.

The good thing about Rutgers-Camden is that if you do the summer jump start program, you can qualify for in-state tuition during your Fall semester as a 1L. I called in the admissions office to verify this. It's a cheap education; even if you lose the scholarship. ~125k if you lose the scholarship. ~105k in the best case scenario.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:03 am

PSU is out honestly, this is between Nova and Camden. Use Nova's scholly to get negotiate away stips on Camden then go there. Otherwise go to Nova IMO.

keg411
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Re: Rutgers Camden v. Penn State v. Villanova?

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:31 pm

alexanderhamilton wrote:Ultimatley NJ, Philadelphia and NYC are the places I'd like to work so I guess either of the Rutgers might be best.


Since NJ is your #1, I'd say Camden over Nova, but I would also try and negotiate the stips (especially if Nova has none).

However, I noticed in your profile you are a URM. With your LSAT and GPA, why didn't you apply to any reach schools? You might have been able to crack the T13 and had a great chance at all three of your preferred markets.




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