CCN or CC.......N?

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YourCaptain
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:02 am

sundance95 wrote:
GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.

QFT. I'd like to know what the root of BruceWayne's anti-NYU trolling is.


"BUT OF COURSE UVA SHOULD BE #6 OUR QUALITY OF LIFE IS JUST THAT GOOD"

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kwais
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby kwais » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:40 am

My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.

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alexonfyre
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby alexonfyre » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:03 am

kwais wrote:My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.


Well, I may be basing my experience on a couple of strange factors, now that I have given it some thought.
When I was in high school I had one of the worst Academic Counselors of all-time. Basically she told me not to expect to get into Georgia Tech (where I ended up going,) UMiami might be my best shot out of state (YP Waitlisted), and that I shouldn't even apply to NYU (didn't even apply on that advice.) She also told me that I really need to apply to more state schools in Louisiana ("UNO is nice") if I really wanted to go to college. At the time I wanted to do engineering or hard sciences, but thought that I might actually want to do something like Political Sciences or Law, if I got into NYU, Chicago, Richmond or Duke. At that point, given my laziness and NYU's complete lack of an Engineering program, I scratched it.
Naturally I talked to people about these schools and many of them considered NYU to be a stretch for me, though in all likelihood I could have potentially biased them by telling them the counselor story first.

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AreJay711
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:28 am

FiveSermon wrote:Maybe. Tbh I think after HYS and T14-T17, most tiers are useless. CCN might be viable because they do place much better into better firms than most of the other T14 though...But I don't think any of CCN is that much better to be considered a non-peer school.


This is mostly true but CCN does do better at placing in the most prestigious firms. It isn't like the career prospects are way better and it probably doesn't really matter for the majority of the class but it is a point of distinction. At equal cost I think it might become meaningful.

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ahduth
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby ahduth » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:49 pm

Sorry, I'm hot on this topic, as Columbia versus NYU is probably going to be the main decision of my cycle.

Here's an example of the type of de-classing of NYU that goes around here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128825&start=8550#p4217600

BruceWayne at least is obvious about it. This kind of stuff is ridiculous. If you ask any big firm attorney what a "top five" school is, they'll list HYSCCN. Dropping N like it's obvious to do so is just a terrible idea.

edit: Oh, and NYU actually does have an UG engineering program, it's some sort of joint thing with Stevens. No idea how good it is, but ya... that counselor was bad lol.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:17 pm

Not joint with Stevens---they merged with Polytech Institute of NY in Downtown Brooklyn

Decent school, but not even the best program in the city (Cooper Union is) and CERTAINLY nowhere close to GTech

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dresden doll
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby dresden doll » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:22 pm

rayiner wrote:If you start trying to put "notches" between Chicago/Columbia and NYU---you're notches are going to represent insignificantly small and meaningless distinctions. Someone at a given class rank at any of those three schools will be roughly equally desirable to a New York employer, and will be equally "not at HYS" to a DC employer. So just pick the one you like better.

Yeah, but then you can't masturbate to that whole t5 concept, and how is that fair?

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BrightLine
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BrightLine » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:34 pm

ahduth wrote:Sorry, I'm hot on this topic, as Columbia versus NYU is probably going to be the main decision of my cycle.

Here's an example of the type of de-classing of NYU that goes around here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128825&start=8550#p4217600

BruceWayne at least is obvious about it. This kind of stuff is ridiculous. If you ask any big firm attorney what a "top five" school is, they'll list HYSCCN. Dropping N like it's obvious to do so is just a terrible idea.

edit: Oh, and NYU actually does have an UG engineering program, it's some sort of joint thing with Stevens. No idea how good it is, but ya... that counselor was bad lol.



For me its a major issue as well. My mindset was that I would not go to NYU at sticker. If get into Columbia (still waiting) I would take it. Otherwise I would accept the Northwestern 1 year deferred 150K and then apply to Harvard/Columbia next year and if i didnt get in then go to Northwestern.

But If NYU=Columbia then I need to rethink this.

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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby chasgoose » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:43 pm

BrightLine wrote:
ahduth wrote:Sorry, I'm hot on this topic, as Columbia versus NYU is probably going to be the main decision of my cycle.

Here's an example of the type of de-classing of NYU that goes around here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128825&start=8550#p4217600

BruceWayne at least is obvious about it. This kind of stuff is ridiculous. If you ask any big firm attorney what a "top five" school is, they'll list HYSCCN. Dropping N like it's obvious to do so is just a terrible idea.

edit: Oh, and NYU actually does have an UG engineering program, it's some sort of joint thing with Stevens. No idea how good it is, but ya... that counselor was bad lol.



For me its a major issue as well. My mindset was that I would not go to NYU at sticker. If get into Columbia (still waiting) I would take it. Otherwise I would accept the Northwestern 1 year deferred 150K and then apply to Harvard/Columbia next year and if i didnt get in then go to Northwestern.

But If NYU=Columbia then I need to rethink this.


Columbia isn't going to give you that many more opportunities than NYU would. The employment stats are slightly better and the name is better (there's no debating that) for lay prestige, but overall if you want big law in NYC/PI you should be fine either way. There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia if you aren't willing to pay sticker at NYU. I'm also a CLS/NYU admit leaning towards NYU at this point.

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zanda
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby zanda » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:44 pm

NYU 2L here, paying almost sticker.

I agree that if you're willing to take CLS over the full ride at NU it's worth seriously considering taking NYU over the full ride at NU. However, whether you get into CLS or not I'd seriously consider taking the NU offer. I don't think there's a serious drop in job offers from CCN to NU, and you gain the flexibility that comes with not going insanely in debt. Also, it seems like the legal market is getting less terrible with each passing year, so waiting a year will probably close the opportunity gap between CCN and NU even further.

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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:04 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Maybe. Tbh I think after HYS and T14-T17, most tiers are useless. CCN might be viable because they do place much better into better firms than most of the other T14 though...But I don't think any of CCN is that much better to be considered a non-peer school.


This is mostly true but CCN does do better at placing in the most prestigious firms. It isn't like the career prospects are way better and it probably doesn't really matter for the majority of the class but it is a point of distinction. At equal cost I think it might become meaningful.



A couple years ago the difference wasn't huge, but ITE it's probably a 10-15% gap in big law placement between CCN and MVPDNCB.

Though people on TLS make mountains out of molehills about the difference between tiers. People are turning down fullrides at CCN for YHS. Insane.

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BruceWayne
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:19 pm

Desert Fox wrote:A couple years ago the difference wasn't huge, but ITE it's probably a 10-15% gap in big law placement between CCN and MVPDNCB.

Though people on TLS make mountains out of molehills about the difference between tiers. People are turning down fullrides at CCN for YHS. Insane.


Please. That's the irony of TLS. The one gap that is quite real (between HYS and "CCN") is big. But because people on here are so infatuated with NYC biglaw they make strength of school assessments entirely on who places the most people into NYC firms. Try getting a job at the DOJ from CCN vs. HYS. It's a HUGE difference. Try getting a fed clerkship from CCN vs. HYS again a HUGE difference. But because people on here think that placement into Skadden NYC or Wachtell is all that matters and the defining way to determine school strength, they mistakenly think that "CCN" is a real grouping that is close to HYS and far away from the other schools. If you have aspirations of working for DOJ Criminal or Civil your chances at getting those spots drop dramatically by going to "CCN" over Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. Fed clerkships are even worse.


YourCaptain wrote:"BUT OF COURSE UVA SHOULD BE #6 OUR QUALITY OF LIFE IS JUST THAT GOOD"


You should change your screen name to StrawCaptain. I've never said that UVA was better/worse/whatever because 1. What the hell does that even mean unless you specificy what you are interested in doing? and 2. UVA's QOL is frankly, average at best. Kids are very passive aggressive intense. My whole thing with the NYU comments on here is that a lot of them are basically just pulled out of people's ass ideas that are circulated on here so much that their fact. But it's kind of ridiculous for me to think that that sort of logic wouldn't be the basis for a website like this.

09042014
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:38 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A couple years ago the difference wasn't huge, but ITE it's probably a 10-15% gap in big law placement between CCN and MVPDNCB.

Though people on TLS make mountains out of molehills about the difference between tiers. People are turning down fullrides at CCN for YHS. Insane.


Please. That's the irony of TLS. The one gap that is quite real (between HYS and "CCN") is big. But because people on here are so infatuated with NYC biglaw they make strength of school assessments entirely on who places the most people into NYC firms. Try getting a job at the DOJ from CCN vs. HYS. It's a HUGE difference. Try getting a fed clerkship from CCN vs. HYS again a HUGE difference. But because people on here think that placement into Skadden NYC or Wachtell is all that matters and the defining way to determine school strength, they mistakenly think that "CCN" is a real grouping that is close to HYS and far away from the other schools. If you have aspirations of working for DOJ Criminal or Civil your chances at getting those spots drop dramatically by going to "CCN" over Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. Fed clerkships are even worse.


Median at YHS and median at CCN are pretty similar. If top 10% at YHS pwn 10% at CCN at top gov jobs that's not really enough to make it TWO TIERS better than CCN.

I will agree that the gap between HYS and CCN is larger than the gap between CCN and the rest of the t14. Significantly larger. But not "turn down a full ride" significant.

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BrightLine
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BrightLine » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:45 pm

zanda wrote:NYU 2L here, paying almost sticker.

I agree that if you're willing to take CLS over the full ride at NU it's worth seriously considering taking NYU over the full ride at NU. However, whether you get into CLS or not I'd seriously consider taking the NU offer. I don't think there's a serious drop in job offers from CCN to NU, and you gain the flexibility that comes with not going insanely in debt. Also, it seems like the legal market is getting less terrible with each passing year, so waiting a year will probably close the opportunity gap between CCN and NU even further.



I am. Its great to have options but it is very stressful right now trying to sort it all out.

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AreJay711
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:A couple years ago the difference wasn't huge, but ITE it's probably a 10-15% gap in big law placement between CCN and MVPDNCB.


I forgot that biglaw =\= NLJ250. In the same vein, who cares why NYU gets better job offers as long as it does? I certainly would take the money at NU though. It isn't much better and large but non-biglaw firm could be better financially with a full scholarship than a biglaw firm and 200K in loans.

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rayiner
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:18 pm

kwais wrote:My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.


I'm from DC and my family had no idea Columbia was prestigious until my brother started applying to colleges. And the only thing I ever knew about U Chicago was that some weird guy from my HS had gone there.

The point is that HYS are the only schools with lay prestige legitimate enough to be worth factoring into your calculus.

And... I'm saying this as a prestige whore. I'm one of those people DF mentioned who would turn down full ride at CCN for HYS. And I still think you'd be retarded to factor prestige into the CLS/NYU decision.
Last edited by rayiner on Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:21 pm

rayiner wrote:
kwais wrote:My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.


I'm from DC and my family had no idea Columbia was prestigious until my brother started applying to colleges. And the only thing I ever knew about U Chicago was that some weird guy from my HS had gone there.

The point is that HYS are the only schools with lay prestige legitimate enough to be worth factoring into your calculus.


HYS for undergrad is either engineering and science trolling or west coast trolling.

I'd add MIT, in any case, everyone knows it's a great school. Princeton too.

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rayiner
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
kwais wrote:My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.


I'm from DC and my family had no idea Columbia was prestigious until my brother started applying to colleges. And the only thing I ever knew about U Chicago was that some weird guy from my HS had gone there.

The point is that HYS are the only schools with lay prestige legitimate enough to be worth factoring into your calculus.


HYS for undergrad is either engineering and science trolling or west coast trolling.

I'd add MIT, in any case, everyone knows it's a great school. Princeton too.


I was talking about law schools. I definitely agree that for UG it's HYPS + CalTech + MIT.

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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:26 pm

rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
kwais wrote:My family is from the Northeast, and many are from New York. A handful of people in my family hold grad degrees from ivys and they didn't understand why I would apply to NYU. CCN are certainly peers in almost all relevant ways when it comes to legal circles, job prospects and educational quality. But to say that if someone doesn't realize that NYU is prestigious, that they are in the minority is ridiculous. The NYU name does not carry the punch of its peers in lay prestige. Not that this matters. Just adding my own personal experience.


I'm from DC and my family had no idea Columbia was prestigious until my brother started applying to colleges. And the only thing I ever knew about U Chicago was that some weird guy from my HS had gone there.

The point is that HYS are the only schools with lay prestige legitimate enough to be worth factoring into your calculus.


HYS for undergrad is either engineering and science trolling or west coast trolling.

I'd add MIT, in any case, everyone knows it's a great school. Princeton too.


I was talking about law schools. I definitely agree that for UG it's HYPS + CalTech + MIT.


What? No CalTech...not even close.

09042014
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:29 pm

rayiner wrote:
I was talking about law schools. I definitely agree that for UG it's HYPS + CalTech + MIT.


Yea law school is def HYS for lay prestige. I didn't know NYU existed and I considered U of C a school for weirdo academics. And I'm from the Chicago area. People are shocked that NW is considered a worse law school than U of C.

Then again inside the city I'm not sure how much worse it is.

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BruceWayne
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:30 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Median at YHS and median at CCN are pretty similar. If top 10% at YHS pwn 10% at CCN at top gov jobs that's not really enough to make it TWO TIERS better than CCN.

I will agree that the gap between HYS and CCN is larger than the gap between CCN and the rest of the t14. Significantly larger. But not "turn down a full ride" significant.


No. People can't even tell what "median" at HYS is. Mix some H's into your transcript at HYS and you have a shot at DOJ. Get anything below a 3.3 at Columbia or NYU and you are immediately marked as "below median" which immediately devastates your chances at DOJ or a fed clerkship (same with below whatever the 177 or whatever it is median at Chicago).

Again what you're really relying on without saying it (implicit in the idea of median etc.) is the NYC biglaw hiring model. Under that model what you're saying is correct. But in other legal employment sectors it's not. Again the fed clerkship thing is even worse than government jobs (and note the circularity of hiring in law, if you can get a fed clerkship that drastically increases your shot at DOJ). You have a legitimate shot at a fed district clerkship on day 1 of law school at HYS since at least a quarter of the class at all 3 gets fed clerkships. Get some H's on your transcript and you have a shot at a fed dist clerkship in your home region depending on how competitive it is. Get anything below a 3.3 at the TLS lauded "CCN" and you're done; just like you would be from the "lower" top 14 schools.

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rayiner
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:32 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I'm from DC and my family had no idea Columbia was prestigious until my brother started applying to colleges. And the only thing I ever knew about U Chicago was that some weird guy from my HS had gone there.

The point is that HYS are the only schools with lay prestige legitimate enough to be worth factoring into your calculus.


HYS for undergrad is either engineering and science trolling or west coast trolling.

I'd add MIT, in any case, everyone knows it's a great school. Princeton too.


I was talking about law schools. I definitely agree that for UG it's HYPS + CalTech + MIT.


What? No CalTech...not even close.


Caltech definitely has the least lay-prestige out of the six, but I think it has more lay prestige than any other school outside the six.

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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:34 pm

Caltech definitely has the least lay-prestige out of the six, but I think it has more lay prestige than any other school outside the six.


You must be heavily west coast biased. I'd argue on the east coast, Columbia has far more lay prestige than Caltech. Caltech doesn't belong anywhere near HYSP MIT category. Those are schools that transcend regional biases.

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rayiner
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:39 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Caltech definitely has the least lay-prestige out of the six, but I think it has more lay prestige than any other school outside the six.


You must be heavily west coast biased. I'd argue on the east coast, Columbia has far more lay prestige than Caltech. Caltech doesn't belong anywhere near HYSP MIT category. Those are schools that transcend regional biases.


Nobody outside New England + NY has heard of Columbia. Everyone's heard of CalTech. They think everyone who goes there works for NASA and shit.

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fatduck
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby fatduck » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:44 pm

@rayiner:

settle a debate for me: what year did you start at gatech? i think we may have been classmates (i started fall 03)




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