CCN or CC.......N?

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BrightLine
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CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BrightLine » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:29 pm

I always thought that NYU was a notch below the Columbia and Chicago (especially once US news switched Chicago and NYU last year). But people here seem to group them together.

Thoughts?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:34 pm

BrightLine wrote:I always thought that NYU was a notch below the Columbia and Chicago (especially once US news switched Chicago and NYU last year). But people here seem to group them together.

Thoughts?


1. Does it matter?
2. If you wanted to work in NYC, would you really go to Chicago over NYU at the same price?
3. NYU is generally better than the schools below it, so it "close enough" to CC (regardless of anything else)
4. If you absolutely don't want to work in NYC, NYU is slightly inferior to the other two (....But most Big Law jobs are in NYC....)

My point in all this is that if one has only the goal of high paid employment, any arguments between them are purely academic in nature.

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BruceWayne
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:41 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
BrightLine wrote:I always thought that NYU was a notch below the Columbia and Chicago (especially once US news switched Chicago and NYU last year). But people here seem to group them together.

Thoughts?


1. Does it matter?
2. If you wanted to work in NYC, would you really go to Chicago over NYU at the same price?
3. NYU is generally better than the schools below it, so it "close enough" to CC (regardless of anything else)
4. If you absolutely don't want to work in NYC, NYU is slightly inferior to the other two (....But most Big Law jobs are in NYC....)

My point in all this is that if one has only the goal of high paid employment, any arguments between them are purely academic in nature.


What does this even mean? I think people say this kind of thing so much without anything to really back it up that they don't know themselves.

And number 4 is just a microcosm of top-law-schools.com. As if the only legal job in existence is biglaw and as if working for biglaw is so important that one must decide which city they want to actually live in based off of where a plurality (not most like people often say--there's a significant difference) of biglaw positions are.

Not to mention that if you do want biglaw in a location other than NYC it's counterproductive (borderline ignorant) to go to a school in a locale not good at placing where you do want to work just because it's better at placing in a market that you don't want to work in (WTH??? That kind of reasoning only comes across as solid on internet echo chambers like this.) This is doubly true when the market with the plurality of big law jobs is one that is actually very open to hiring those who attend law schools in other parts of the country.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:05 am

The reason that BigLaw, especially in NYC, is given what amounts to worship on this site is because a lot of kids on here want these jobs, and this desire is their primary reason for attending law school. NYU owes a large amount of its recognition to the fact that it places well in NYC. It doesn't mean that this makes it a better school, but it shouldn't be discounted (obviously unless you don't care about large firm jobs).

As far as the OP is concerned, I would say that except for legal academia, NYU is basically on par with CC. At that level the choice is more about school culture than anything. This, special programs and price should be the biggest determiners unless you know that you plan on working in either NYC or Chicago.

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GeePee
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby GeePee » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:29 am

Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.

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bk1
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:31 am

GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.

barry
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby barry » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:07 am

NYU is worse than CC
look at the last 2years of NLJ numbers, i know that ppl say they will be back to normal but at the very least it seems NYU is more vulnerable to the effects of recession than the others and definitely not on par for academia or outside of NYC

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FuManChusco
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FuManChusco » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:13 am

barry wrote:NYU is worse than CC
look at the last 2years of NLJ numbers, i know that ppl say they will be back to normal but at the very least it seems NYU is more vulnerable to the effects of recession than the others and definitely not on par for academia or outside of NYC


did you even read the thread?

barry
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby barry » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:15 am

FuManChusco wrote:
barry wrote:NYU is worse than CC
look at the last 2years of NLJ numbers, i know that ppl say they will be back to normal but at the very least it seems NYU is more vulnerable to the effects of recession than the others and definitely not on par for academia or outside of NYC


did you even read the thread?


U mad?

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ahduth
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby ahduth » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:28 am

GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.


What I would like to know is why BruceWayne thinks it's so important that you be able to place into firms where NYU isn't recognized as a top institution. If they don't realize it's ranked as one of the top institutions faculty-wise, and is one of the most competitive schools to get into... are these people you want to work for?

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FuManChusco
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FuManChusco » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:31 am

barry wrote:
FuManChusco wrote:
barry wrote:NYU is worse than CC
look at the last 2years of NLJ numbers, i know that ppl say they will be back to normal but at the very least it seems NYU is more vulnerable to the effects of recession than the others and definitely not on par for academia or outside of NYC


did you even read the thread?


U mad?


lulz

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alexonfyre
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby alexonfyre » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:49 am

ahduth wrote:
GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.


What I would like to know is why BruceWayne thinks it's so important that you be able to place into firms where NYU isn't recognized as a top institution. If they don't realize it's ranked as one of the top institutions faculty-wise, and is one of the most competitive schools to get into... are these people you want to work for?


Who in the United States doesn't think that NYU is a top tier school? Seriously, I haven't met them if they exist. I can understand people not realizing how good and competitive places like Michigan or perhaps UVA are, but even then only outside of law circles. As far as I know, NYU is seen as a top tier school for just about anything by the population at-large.
Was BW seriously implying that NYU is not recognized somewhere?

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BrightLine
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BrightLine » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:51 am

GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.



I wasn't saying it was worse, I was saying.... just read my OP.

I am asking because it mattered to me, not trying to start anything or offend anyone.

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sundance95
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby sundance95 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:54 am

GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.

QFT. I'd like to know what the root of BruceWayne's anti-NYU trolling is.

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gatorgirl4life
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby gatorgirl4life » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:01 am

alexonfyre wrote:Who in the United States doesn't think that NYU is a top tier school? Seriously, I haven't met them if they exist. I can understand people not realizing how good and competitive places like Michigan or perhaps UVA are, but even then only outside of law circles. As far as I know, NYU is seen as a top tier school for just about anything by the population at-large.
Was BW seriously implying that NYU is not recognized somewhere?


Actually, I had no idea NYU was a top school until I started looking into/applying to law schools. I think it's reputation is much stronger in the northeast than it is in the rest of the country. However, I doubt most lay people think that Chicago, Penn, Michigan, UVa, etc. are top tier schools either...they just know Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia...and Georgetown. lol

For example, my family doesn't understand why I would go to NYU when I got into UF...which they consider "a much stronger (and obviously cheaper) state school." :roll:

Oh and I love NYU and will most likely be going there in the fall! :D

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alexonfyre
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby alexonfyre » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:07 am

gatorgirl4life wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:Who in the United States doesn't think that NYU is a top tier school? Seriously, I haven't met them if they exist. I can understand people not realizing how good and competitive places like Michigan or perhaps UVA are, but even then only outside of law circles. As far as I know, NYU is seen as a top tier school for just about anything by the population at-large.
Was BW seriously implying that NYU is not recognized somewhere?


Actually, I had no idea NYU was a top school until I started looking into/applying to law schools. I think it's reputation is much stronger in the northeast than it is in the rest of the country. However, I doubt most lay people think that Chicago, Penn, Michigan, UVa, etc. are top tier schools either...they just know Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia...and Georgetown. lol

Oh and I love NYU and will most likely be going there in the fall! :D


I have lived in the Southeast my entire life, and most of my family is from SoCal, and in both places if you mention New York law people come up with Cornell Columbia and NYU, in various orders (usually Cornell and Columbia on top) and agree that all are high class. I mean, it is anecdotal evidence, but it is first-party anecdote fwiw.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:12 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
BrightLine wrote:I always thought that NYU was a notch below the Columbia and Chicago (especially once US news switched Chicago and NYU last year). But people here seem to group them together.

Thoughts?


1. Does it matter?
2. If you wanted to work in NYC, would you really go to Chicago over NYU at the same price?
3. NYU is generally better than the schools below it, so it "close enough" to CC (regardless of anything else)
4. If you absolutely don't want to work in NYC, NYU is slightly inferior to the other two (....But most Big Law jobs are in NYC....)

My point in all this is that if one has only the goal of high paid employment, any arguments between them are purely academic in nature.


What does this even mean? I think people say this kind of thing so much without anything to really back it up that they don't know themselves.

And number 4 is just a microcosm of top-law-schools.com. As if the only legal job in existence is biglaw and as if working for biglaw is so important that one must decide which city they want to actually live in based off of where a plurality (not most like people often say--there's a significant difference) of biglaw positions are.

Not to mention that if you do want biglaw in a location other than NYC it's counterproductive (borderline ignorant) to go to a school in a locale not good at placing where you do want to work just because it's better at placing in a market that you don't want to work in (WTH??? That kind of reasoning only comes across as solid on internet echo chambers like this.) This is doubly true when the market with the plurality of big law jobs is one that is actually very open to hiring those who attend law schools in other parts of the country.

IABW

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ahduth
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby ahduth » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:14 am

alexonfyre wrote:
ahduth wrote:
GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.


What I would like to know is why BruceWayne thinks it's so important that you be able to place into firms where NYU isn't recognized as a top institution. If they don't realize it's ranked as one of the top institutions faculty-wise, and is one of the most competitive schools to get into... are these people you want to work for?


Who in the United States doesn't think that NYU is a top tier school? Seriously, I haven't met them if they exist. I can understand people not realizing how good and competitive places like Michigan or perhaps UVA are, but even then only outside of law circles. As far as I know, NYU is seen as a top tier school for just about anything by the population at-large.
Was BW seriously implying that NYU is not recognized somewhere?


No, NYU isn't very well known outside the northeast for the population at large. You say "NYU" in Chicago and half the time people think you're saying "NIU," which is of course Northern Illinois University, an institution of higher learning located nearby in DeKalb.

I don't think BW is saying anything about lay prestige however. He does seem to have found some bad placement data for NYU somewhere however. For big law, I don't really see it - firms in both California and Chicago seem to have a lot of both Columbia and NYU graduates (I was only doing those two, for personal reasons). His antipathy towards the school predates their poor showing in this most recent NLJ250 listing (although he did seem elated). Even that, I just don't know... The graphs assembled by aliarrow (thank you!) seem to imply that most everyone at NYU got a job, unless I'm reading them wrong:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

A full third of NYU's class leaves New York. I don't know what else I'm supposed to be looking for with respect their placement power. He's talking about some class of firm that respects Columbia and Chicago but does not like NYU. I'm not sure where or what it is, however.

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rayiner
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:16 am

If you start trying to put "notches" between Chicago/Columbia and NYU---you're notches are going to represent insignificantly small and meaningless distinctions. Someone at a given class rank at any of those three schools will be roughly equally desirable to a New York employer, and will be equally "not at HYS" to a DC employer. So just pick the one you like better.

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camelcrema
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby camelcrema » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:19 am

People who consider NYU to be a step below CC are letting the fact that Chicago and Columbia are far more prestigious overall institutions influence their opinion?

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ahduth
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby ahduth » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:29 am

camelcrema wrote:People who consider NYU to be a step below CC are letting the fact that Chicago and Columbia are far more prestigious overall institutions influence their opinion?


You hear it quoted as truth on this site fairly often however, and not just by Batman. I think it's just people not wanting to do any actual homework, and relying on lay prestige/USNWR to make their assessments.

It's bothersome to me, as it makes me question why I'm considering NYU ahead of Columbia every time I see it. But I can't find sufficient evidence that there's really any difference between the two, from the standpoint of the legal education and legal career afforded.

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BrightLine
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby BrightLine » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:01 am

ahduth wrote:
camelcrema wrote:You hear it quoted as truth on this site fairly often however, and not just by Batman. I think it's just people not wanting to do any actual homework, and relying on lay prestige/USNWR to make their assessments.


That was the point of the thread. I said that I was under one impression but the opinion here seems to be the opposite. Then I asked for thoughts.

FiveSermon
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:52 am

Maybe. Tbh I think after HYS and T14-T17, most tiers are useless. CCN might be viable because they do place much better into better firms than most of the other T14 though...But I don't think any of CCN is that much better to be considered a non-peer school.

FiveSermon
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:55 am

alexonfyre wrote:
ahduth wrote:
GeePee wrote:Only two things on TLS are certain:

1. Every month or so, someone will post a new thread about NYU being worse than Columbia and Chicago.
2. You will obviously know when such a thread exists because BruceWayne bumps it with the exact same response every time.


What I would like to know is why BruceWayne thinks it's so important that you be able to place into firms where NYU isn't recognized as a top institution. If they don't realize it's ranked as one of the top institutions faculty-wise, and is one of the most competitive schools to get into... are these people you want to work for?


Who in the United States doesn't think that NYU is a top tier school? Seriously, I haven't met them if they exist. I can understand people not realizing how good and competitive places like Michigan or perhaps UVA are, but even then only outside of law circles. As far as I know, NYU is seen as a top tier school for just about anything by the population at-large.
Was BW seriously implying that NYU is not recognized somewhere?


Um, I think it's a stretch to call NYU undergrad "prestigious".

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Holly Golightly
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Re: CCN or CC.......N?

Postby Holly Golightly » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:03 am

ahduth wrote:No, NYU isn't very well known outside the northeast for the population at large. You say "NYU" in Chicago and half the time people think you're saying "NIU," which is of course Northern Illinois University, an institution of higher learning located nearby in DeKalb.

Yeah, and you say "U Chicago" or U of C" to most people in Chicago, and they go "UIC?"

lol I love lay prestige.




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