Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

University of Minnesota
60
66%
Lewis and Clark
24
26%
Brooklyn Law School
7
8%
 
Total votes: 91

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Tim0thy222
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Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:01 am

So, where should I go? After scholly the financial difference between the 3 schools is negligible, including cost of living. (16k/yr at L&C, 30.8k/yr at BLS, 20k/yr at UMN).

Obviously UMN has a vastly superior rank, but if all 3 schools are regional, I'd rather be married to Portland or Brooklyn than Minneapolis, as I have been on the west coast my whole life, but also love NYC. On the other hand, UMN's superior reputation may improve my chances of transfer into T14 if I do well (though I know it would be foolish to assume I will rank above the majority of the bright and capable students in my class). Even if I don't transfer, maybe I can make it to one of the coasts after graduation if I do well? Even if all 3 schools are regional, and even if I don't transfer, I'd probably rather have a job as a lawyer in Minnesota than a job as a receptionist with a JD (and the debt to match) in Portland or Brooklyn.

I want to do public interest, or advocacy or non-profit or something. So basically I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I know that it is likely to pay in the 50k/year range, and involves my liberal disposition and/or desire to help people.

Thoughts?

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patrickd139
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:05 am

Where on the West Coast are you from? Do you have any connections to MN other than your acceptance letter?

Don't go to BLS.

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:21 am

For me, it would be Minnesota without a question. But everyone is different. Minnesota is a truly solid school. Yes, it is definitely stronger in its own region, and more of the graduates from UMN end up in that region. However, it is certainly not impossible to get out. Especially if you are hellbent on doing so.

As for L&C, how much more do you love the West Coast? And how much do you dislike the Midwest? Only you can answer that.

If the only thing you have going for you is that you really liked NYC once, I don't think that's enough to outweigh the other options. BLS doesn't strike me as being as exceptional in comparison to UMN.

Another thing I always tell people on here: Have you visited any of these places? If you haven't, and you are financially able to do so, I think it's worth it. You may find that UMN isn't so bad, or alternatively, that you hate it. Visiting can be incredibly helpful when trying to determine where you want to go.

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bk1
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:52 am

Option 4: Retake/Reapply

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OneSixtySix
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby OneSixtySix » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:58 am

Tim0thy222 wrote:So, where should I go? After scholly the financial difference between the 3 schools is negligible, including cost of living. (16k/yr at L&C, 30.8k/yr at BLS, 20k/yr at UMN).

Obviously UMN has a vastly superior rank, but if all 3 schools are regional, I'd rather be married to Portland or Brooklyn than Minneapolis, as I have been on the west coast my whole life, but also love NYC. On the other hand, UMN's superior reputation may improve my chances of transfer into T14 if I do well (though I know it would be foolish to assume I will rank above the majority of the bright and capable students in my class). Even if I don't transfer, maybe I can make it to one of the coasts after graduation if I do well? Even if all 3 schools are regional, and even if I don't transfer, I'd probably rather have a job as a lawyer in Minnesota than a job as a receptionist with a JD (and the debt to match) in Portland or Brooklyn.

I want to do public interest, or advocacy or non-profit or something. So basically I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I know that it is likely to pay in the 50k/year range, and involves my liberal disposition and/or desire to help people.

Thoughts?


I would argue that the price isnt as negligible as you may believe it to be. A 33k difference between BLS and UMN amounts to about 60k after interest over a 20 year repayment period, a hefty sum for somebody interested in PI.

While I dont think you should go somewhere you would hate living in, its important to realize that a) location during law school is largely irrelevant given the time you will be spending in the library vis-a-vis waltzing about the city your studying in, and b) regional power-houses such as Minn. place mostly in the mid-west because most of the student body is attending with a desire to remain in the market, therefore mobility is not as restrictive as it would seem.

Still, I think that UMinn with Job placement in the midwest (they do well in chicago) is vastly superior to job prospects in NYC with a BLS degree. Lewis and Clark seems like a nice school in a good location, however I dont know enough about the market or the school to substantially comment...although 16k a year for law school sounds very appealing.

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geoduck
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby geoduck » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:00 am

Have you visited Minneapolis yet?

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stratocophic
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby stratocophic » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:01 am

OneSixtySix wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:So, where should I go? After scholly the financial difference between the 3 schools is negligible, including cost of living. (16k/yr at L&C, 30.8k/yr at BLS, 20k/yr at UMN).

Obviously UMN has a vastly superior rank, but if all 3 schools are regional, I'd rather be married to Portland or Brooklyn than Minneapolis, as I have been on the west coast my whole life, but also love NYC. On the other hand, UMN's superior reputation may improve my chances of transfer into T14 if I do well (though I know it would be foolish to assume I will rank above the majority of the bright and capable students in my class). Even if I don't transfer, maybe I can make it to one of the coasts after graduation if I do well? Even if all 3 schools are regional, and even if I don't transfer, I'd probably rather have a job as a lawyer in Minnesota than a job as a receptionist with a JD (and the debt to match) in Portland or Brooklyn.

I want to do public interest, or advocacy or non-profit or something. So basically I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I know that it is likely to pay in the 50k/year range, and involves my liberal disposition and/or desire to help people.

Thoughts?


I would argue that the price isnt as negligible as you may believe it to be. A 33k difference between BLS and UMN amounts to about 60k after interest over a 20 year repayment period, a hefty sum for somebody interested in PI.

While I dont think you should go somewhere you would hate living in, its important to realize that a) location during law school is largely irrelevant given the time you will be spending in the library vis-a-vis waltzing about the city your studying in, and b) regional power-houses such as Minn. place mostly in the mid-west because most of the student body is attending with a desire to remain in the market, therefore mobility is not as restrictive as it would seem.

Still, I think that UMinn with Job placement in the midwest (they do well in chicago) is vastly superior to job prospects in NYC with a BLS degree. Lewis and Clark seems like a nice school in a good location, however I dont know enough about the market or the school to substantially comment...although 16k a year for law school sounds very appealing.
I think Lewis & Clark has somewhat of a PI focus, but I'm not sure. All I really know about them is that they're in Oregon. I assume OP'd have at least one of UCD/H/I or Loyola as options if Cali was the desired market and numbers were good enough for Minnesota

emmbar53
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby emmbar53 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:12 am

If you prefer Oregon over Minnesota, then I vote L&C. Brooklyn's market is overly saturated with a bunch of better schools, hurting overall employment prospects.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:34 am

Thanks for all the input so far! I'm going to read these a little more tomorrow, but a quick point of clarification:

Those $ amounts I listed are not the cost of attendance, they are the scholarship amounts. I realize I wasn't clear on that.

EDIT: so basically, after scholly l&c is 20k/yr + col, bls is 16k + col, and umn is 20k. minn and portland seem to have similar col, while NY is obviously more. hence i considered it negligible.
Last edited by Tim0thy222 on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:00 am

geoduck wrote:Have you visited Minneapolis yet?


No, actually I'll be seeing you at the ASW! (we met at the lewis and clark thing, in case you hadnt made the connection)

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geoduck
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby geoduck » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:20 am

Tim0thy222 wrote:
geoduck wrote:Have you visited Minneapolis yet?


No, actually I'll be seeing you at the ASW! (we met at the lewis and clark thing, in case you hadnt made the connection)


Yeah I was wondering if it was you. I have vague memories of such a conversation. Ahh Portland beer. :lol:

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:14 am

Absolutely no to BLS. I would go to UMN unless you absolutely hate the idea of working and living in that part of the country. UMN dominates its secondary market and has an insane alumni network over there.

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paratactical
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby paratactical » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:28 am

If you can't take this advice:

bk1 wrote:Option 4: Retake/Reapply


Definitely take this advice:

patrickd139 wrote:Don't go to BLS.

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snapdragon
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby snapdragon » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:33 am

I voted for L&C because you want to be on a coast. If you're not comfortable with the idea of living and working in MN for at least a few (2-5) years after graduation, I would caution against going there (or any other regional school).

If you are comfortable with living and working in MN for a bit, I'd change my vote because of Minn's employment prospects.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:36 am

geoduck wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:
geoduck wrote:Have you visited Minneapolis yet?


No, actually I'll be seeing you at the ASW! (we met at the lewis and clark thing, in case you hadnt made the connection)


Yeah I was wondering if it was you. I have vague memories of such a conversation. Ahh Portland beer. :lol:


I know. I think Minneapolis beer may have trouble competing, though I certainly am going to give it a chance!

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:42 am

Thanks everyone so far. This is mostly the response I was expecting. In regards to the retake thing, I considered it, but because I'm a splitter, it seems to me that unless I get a 176+, my gpa is going to keep me out of most of the schools I am not getting into now. Maybe something in the low 170s would get me into Davis or Hastings or something, but that's not worth it to me. I really liked L&C, so it is seeming like a solid bet if I'm going to stay on the west coast.

I am consistently seeing one thing here that has surprised me: Lewis and Clark is getting a fair amount of love, while BLS is getting slammed. I imagine the reason is that Columbia > NYU > Cardozo > BLS and there's not enough to go around. Anyone have any evidence of how hard it is to get a job out of BLS, or is it mostly just the "math" I just did?

In response to the visiting advice, that is excellent advice. I already visited L&C, and am visiting BLS and Minn next week.

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paratactical
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby paratactical » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:47 am

.
Last edited by paratactical on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Upton Sinclair » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:50 am

Saw the thread title. Came here to offer my condolences.

fakemoney
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby fakemoney » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:51 am

I've heard nothing but great things about MSP -- with one caveat: Winter.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:27 pm

paratactical wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:I am consistently seeing one thing here that has surprised me: Lewis and Clark is getting a fair amount of love, while BLS is getting slammed. I imagine the reason is that Columbia > NYU > Cardozo > BLS and there's not enough to go around. Anyone have any evidence of how hard it is to get a job out of BLS, or is it mostly just the "math" I just did?


In NYC, you have all of the T14 looking at the big firms, not just NYU and Columbia. Some people take smaller jobs and PI jobs in NYC for the prestige and living in NYC. Then you have Fordham and Cardozo above BLS getting whatever smaller jobs are left. BLS students then have to compete with all the other similarly ranked schools around the city. It's a lot of people and there, quite frankly, are not many jobs and not many high paying jobs.

The other reason BLS gets shit on here is because they are believed to be guilty of section stacking - where they put everyone with GPA stipulated scholarships in the same section to ensure that they won't have to continue giving out nearly as many schollys for 2Ls and 3Ls.

I lived in NYC for 5 years working as a biglaw paralegal and the only time I ever saw a BLS grad was doing contract doc review. I did once meet a BLS grad who was getting paid to do talks about interesting legal issues at a bar one week every night. He spent the rest of his time bartending there and expressing woe over his debt.


This is some valuable insight. Thanks for taking the time to share it. I will certainly keep this in mind, along with what everyone else has said, when choosing a school.

chasgoose
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby chasgoose » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:04 am

I voted Lewis and Clark, Minnesota is higher ranked, but not high enough to make getting out of the Midwest easy. Minneapolis isn't terrible, but I would much rather be stuck in Portland for the rest of my life than be stuck in Minneapolis. BLS shouldn't even be on the table at this point. NYC is a way over-saturated market and BLS won't really help you anywhere else. At least Lewis and Clark/Minnesota are the best law schools in their markets.

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geoduck
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby geoduck » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:17 pm

chasgoose wrote:I voted Lewis and Clark, Minnesota is higher ranked, but not high enough to make getting out of the Midwest easy. Minneapolis isn't terrible, but I would much rather be stuck in Portland for the rest of my life than be stuck in Minneapolis. BLS shouldn't even be on the table at this point. NYC is a way over-saturated market and BLS won't really help you anywhere else. At least Lewis and Clark/Minnesota are the best law schools in their markets.


You don't think #20 is high enough to get out of The Midwest? Weird... Enough UMN grads take the NY bar that it's on their ABA data and they place 12% in big law. Also, apparently a lot of top 20 grads from the Pacific NW like going home and competing for those Portland jobs.

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dpk711
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby dpk711 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:19 pm

Just don't go to Brooklyn. I voted for UMN.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby Patriot1208 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:28 pm

geoduck wrote:
chasgoose wrote:I voted Lewis and Clark, Minnesota is higher ranked, but not high enough to make getting out of the Midwest easy. Minneapolis isn't terrible, but I would much rather be stuck in Portland for the rest of my life than be stuck in Minneapolis. BLS shouldn't even be on the table at this point. NYC is a way over-saturated market and BLS won't really help you anywhere else. At least Lewis and Clark/Minnesota are the best law schools in their markets.


You don't think #20 is high enough to get out of The Midwest? Weird... Enough UMN grads take the NY bar that it's on their ABA data and they place 12% in big law. Also, apparently a lot of top 20 grads from the Pacific NW like going home and competing for those Portland jobs.

He did say it wouldn't be easy, not impossible.

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geoduck
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Re: Help me, TLS, you're my only hope.

Postby geoduck » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:35 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
geoduck wrote:
chasgoose wrote:I voted Lewis and Clark, Minnesota is higher ranked, but not high enough to make getting out of the Midwest easy. Minneapolis isn't terrible, but I would much rather be stuck in Portland for the rest of my life than be stuck in Minneapolis. BLS shouldn't even be on the table at this point. NYC is a way over-saturated market and BLS won't really help you anywhere else. At least Lewis and Clark/Minnesota are the best law schools in their markets.


You don't think #20 is high enough to get out of The Midwest? Weird... Enough UMN grads take the NY bar that it's on their ABA data and they place 12% in big law. Also, apparently a lot of top 20 grads from the Pacific NW like going home and competing for those Portland jobs.

He did say it wouldn't be easy, not impossible.


That's true, but I've been starting to question how much L&C owns their market after some recent posts and after being told by the school directly that if I went there, I couldn't rely on getting a job in Portland. That makes the 47 point difference in rank a little clearer to me, especially as a PNW resident who went to undergrad here. Makes it pretty easy to go back home.




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