Columbia worth 200k??

[adt231]

And if you make $80,000 a year, WUSTL's debt would be manageable.

Yes, but you might not make 80k. But yes, even then its still manageable, esp. of OP lives at home while in law school.

I'm on the verge of turning down Columbia at about $200K. I just don't see how the cost/benefit is worth it. Few people WANT biglaw for more than a few years, and even after paying $30,000 for four years of starting in biglaw, you'd owe $80,000 and expecting a big pay cut.

You're right that the cost/benefit might not be worth it, but check your math. First, if you pay 30k a year on 200k of debt at 6.8% interest for 4 years, you will still owe 120k.

Next, if you pay sticker, you will graduate with over 250k in debt. You need to put much more than 30k a year on that in order to pay it down quickly. On 250k and 6.8% interest, you owe 17k in INTEREST/yr (at the beginning of repayment). It will take you almost 13 years to pay it off (and this is making the tenuous assumption that you afford to pay 30k a year towards your debt).

Now, if you leave CLS with around 200k of debt when you graduate (somehow- whether its grants, parental help, etc.), and you only pay 30k per year towards this debt, it will take you about 9 years to pay off.

Edit: because I'm a typo machine. oh boy, how am i going to draft contracts? lol

[dakatz]

I think the problems arise when people think with the stars in their eyes and not with their heads. This OP made it pretty clear that he lacks concrete goals and focus. He really has no idea what he wants at this point. I'm not saying going to your dream school at sticker is a bad idea if you have concrete goals and that school is essentially a necessary tool for reachig those goals. But advocating 200K of debt on a kid who really has no idea what he wants? That just seems irresponsible to me. Again, we aren't voting what school WE would pick based on OUR situations. Hell, I was willing to pay sticker at Columbia (given i woulsnt have had to pay for housing since i live not too far away, but still). We are voting based on OP and his situation.

[Non-Chalant1]

People need to stop saying the difference in debt is 200k...I did not see the OP say they got a full ride from WUSTL. Also that 200k is based on approximations...such as you using Columbia's health plan, where you'll be living, etc. CLS will obviously cost more but I would take CLS over WUSTL every time. Better LRAP and more flexible if you go PI and better firm prospects by far to pay off the debt in 5 to 10 years if you go that route. Obviously there is no guarantee that you will do well enough in law school to acquire these jobs but there is no guarantee of doing well at WUSTL either. But Columbia's prospects are better for those lower in the class. I can't tell you how debt adverse to be and what people are saying in here is valid.

But I'm an 0L like you making the and choices so take that for what its worth.

[gwuorbust]

People need to stop saying the difference in debt is 200k...I did not see the OP say they got a full ride from WUSTL. Also that 200k is based on approximations...such as you using Columbia's health plan, where you'll be living, etc. CLS will obviously cost more but I would take CLS over WUSTL every time. Better LRAP and more flexible if you go PI and better firm prospects by far to pay off the debt in 5 to 10 years if you go that route. Obviously there is no guarantee that you will do well enough in law school to acquire these jobs but there is no guarantee of doing well at WUSTL either. But Columbia's prospects are better for those lower in the class. I can't tell you how debt adverse to be and what people are saying in here is valid.

But I'm an 0L like you making the and choices so take that for what its worth.

This is your main issue.

Plus, OP said he was getting a full ride + some spending money left over from the school. I voted WUSTL because not having any debt would be a freeing scenario. OP could literally take whatever job he wanted without having to consider if he will be able to survive. I would love to be in that position.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Columbia is worth the cost. WUSTL is not. Look at placement stats, geographic preferences and general institutional prestige. All favor columbia.

[quiver]

I WISH I had this choice as a 0L.

Like others have said, you can't really go wrong either way. It's a very personal choice that depends on your career goals, location preferences, etc. If you want NYC biglaw for a few years then a transition back home (which it seems you do), I'd say columbia; an ivy league degree travels better than a WUSTL degree. That's my personal opinion though and if you're really not comfortable with taking out that much in loans, I'd say go with WUSTL. Can't go wrong either way.

Also (like others have said), I'd definitely go with an in-between option if you have one. I'd want to stay in the traditional T14 range for the degree portability you want and you won't have the same debt as columbia.

congrats on the success!

[Non-Chalant1]

People need to stop saying the difference in debt is 200k...I did not see the OP say they got a full ride from WUSTL. Also that 200k is based on approximations...such as you using Columbia's health plan, where you'll be living, etc. CLS will obviously cost more but I would take CLS over WUSTL every time. Better LRAP and more flexible if you go PI and better firm prospects by far to pay off the debt in 5 to 10 years if you go that route. Obviously there is no guarantee that you will do well enough in law school to acquire these jobs but there is no guarantee of doing well at WUSTL either. But Columbia's prospects are better for those lower in the class. I can't tell you how debt adverse to be and what people are saying in here is valid.

But I'm an 0L like you making the and choices so take that for what its worth.

This is your main issue.

Plus, OP said he was getting a full ride + some spending money left over from the school. I voted WUSTL because not having any debt would be a freeing scenario. OP could literally take whatever job he wanted without having to consider if he will be able to survive. I would love to be in that position.

First off being an 0L isn't any issue. I won't argue that because I've done that too much on this board in the past. The only mistake I made was misreading the first post. I just saw 135k and assumed it must cost more than that. The fact remains that unlike most people in this thread I am an 0L who had those options as well. I consulted enough people and was willing to go with CLS but then did give me money but still....I was just saying what I was prepared to do. It's easy for people to talk when they're not in that position. I also said that you all said was valid. But no the op cannot take whatever job he wanted because the prospects would not be the same. Not that it's guaranteed from Columbia but its feasible.

[gwuorbust]

First off being an 0L isn't any issue. I won't argue that because I've done that too much on this board in the past. The only mistake I made was misreading the first post. I just saw 135k and assumed it must cost more than that. The fact remains that unlike most people in this thread I am an 0L who had those options as well. I consulted enough people and was willing to go with CLS but then did give me money but still....I was just saying what I was prepared to do. It's easy for people to talk when they're not in that position. I also said that you all said was valid. But no the op cannot take whatever job he wanted because the prospects would not be the same. Not that it's guaranteed from Columbia but its feasible.

if I hadn't gotten the scholarship from Tulane or if I had gotten off the GW WL then I would be attending GW at sticker. The idea of law school is very compelling and is like an Inception-esk idea that, once planted, is hard to get out. The Reality is that it is not anything like what you'd expect(and I knew what to expect - but experiencing it is totally different). And my experience so far has only pointed that law school is one of the biggest legalized money grabs I've ever seen.

[AreJay711]

First off being an 0L isn't any issue. I won't argue that because I've done that too much on this board in the past. The only mistake I made was misreading the first post. I just saw 135k and assumed it must cost more than that. The fact remains that unlike most people in this thread I am an 0L who had those options as well. I consulted enough people and was willing to go with CLS but then did give me money but still....I was just saying what I was prepared to do. It's easy for people to talk when they're not in that position. I also said that you all said was valid. But no the op cannot take whatever job he wanted because the prospects would not be the same. Not that it's guaranteed from Columbia but its feasible.

if I hadn't gotten the scholarship from Tulane or if I had gotten off the GW WL then I would be attending GW at sticker. The idea of law school is very compelling and is like an Inception-esk idea that, once planted, is hard to get out. The Reality is that it is not anything like what you'd expect(and I knew what to expect - but experiencing it is totally different). And my experience so far has only pointed that law school is one of the biggest legalized money grabs I've ever seen.

Good point though. I just got my final financial aid thing from my school and before the scholarship it was 100K for 3 semesters. Shit would have been scary. Edit: Actually, it still is -- it wasn't that large of a scholarship.

[nickwar]

There's absolutely no argument to be made for Columbia @ $200k debt over Wash U with $0 debt.

Sorry. Washington U is the answer.

If you want to be crushed by $200k in debt for a chance at big law in the worst legal economy in recent history -- go for it. But I wouldn't. I also think you are underestimating the total costs of a Columbia Law education. If you're paying full tuition + living expenses I would estimate your total costs closer to $220-$230k

Columbia's website estimates $74,000/year budget on 9-month living expenses -- extrapolate that over 12 months and it's closer to $250k. Not to mention the interest over and above the paltry $8,000/year no-interest (until graduation) loans. What a nightmare.

[gwuorbust]

let me ask you this: if you owned a small business and you told the bank that you could buy a very risky product for $0 but that you need a $250,000 loan to buy an almost indistinguishably risky product, and that you have almost no plan and no capital, because some magazine with very limited credibility said so, how long do you think it would take to get laughed out of the building?

my guess is 2.5 milliseconds.

[nickwar]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset than having thrown away $250k+ for whatever advantage there is at having a Columbia degree over a Washington U degree. Not to mention there's still a shot at NYC biglaw with a Wash U degree if you do well enough. Maybe top 10-15% at Wash U. vs. MAYBE top 25-35% (right now) at Columbia? Who knows what Columbia's actual chances are in this economy.

[keg411]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset than having thrown away $250k+ for whatever advantage there is at having a Columbia degree over a Washington U degree. Not to mention there's still a shot at NYC biglaw with a Wash U degree if you do well enough. Maybe top 10-15% at Wash U. vs. MAYBE top 25-35% (right now) at Columbia? Who knows what Columbia's actual chances are in this economy.

Um, no. Even ITE, Columbia has at least 50-60% placement (if not higher). WUSTL is lucky if they're at 20%.
If OP goes to WUSTL, my guess is mid-way first semester he's trolling around the transfer forum... and then after grades, all hope of BigLawl is lost and free law school just ends up being three wasted years and trying to get a $30k person injury gig in East St. Louis.

/Mr. Anon
/But not inaccurate... OP, go to CLS (or pray you get $$ somewhere in between)

[FiveSermon]

There's absolutely no argument to be made for Columbia @ $200k debt over Wash U with $0 debt.

Sorry. Washington U is the answer.

If you want to be crushed by $200k in debt for a chance at big law in the worst legal economy in recent history -- go for it. But I wouldn't. I also think you are underestimating the total costs of a Columbia Law education. If you're paying full tuition + living expenses I would estimate your total costs closer to $220-$230k

Columbia's website estimates $74,000/year budget on 9-month living expenses -- extrapolate that over 12 months and it's closer to $250k. Not to mention the interest over and above the paltry $8,000/year no-interest (until graduation) loans. What a nightmare.

Have to disagree. WUSTL is a great school but the job prospects are nothing compared to Columbia. WUSTL might be the safer choice but that doesn't mean it's always the best choice.

[dkt4]

Have to disagree. WUSTL is a great school but the job prospects are nothing compared to Columbia. WUSTL might be the safer choice but that doesn't mean it's always the best choice.

+1

i don't think it's wrong to go to WUSTL, but your chances at biglaw or something (if that's what you want) are much, much higher at Columbia. That's what Columbia does...and they do it pretty damn well. Even at sticker, you can pay off CLS with a BigLaw salary pretty comfortably. Plus, what's probably as important (or more important) than your actual degree is your first job out of school...which is probably going to be better from CLS.

[dakatz]

I said it before but I think it bears repeating: the kid sounds like he has no idea what he wants at this point. People who are confused or wishy wasn't SHOULD NOT be taking on 210K+ in debt. I'm not saying that Columbia can't possibly be the right choice in the end. But given the info he provided? I can't see how anyone in good conscience (unless if course people are answeri.g the question based on what THEY would pick) can recommend that this kid go a quarter million dollars into debt.

[witorres89]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681
facts are important
the fact is you have double the biglaw shot if you go to Columbia but
remember that 200k in debt could really work against you if something tragic happens

[keg411]

I said it before but I think it bears repeating: the kid sounds like he has no idea what he wants at this point. People who are confused or wishy wasn't SHOULD NOT be taking on 210K+ in debt. I'm not saying that Columbia can't possibly be the right choice in the end. But given the info he provided? I can't see how anyone in good conscience (unless if course people are answeri.g the question based on what THEY would pick) can recommend that this kid go a quarter million dollars into debt.

I would only agree with this if OP was from St. Louis or had family there. If OP really has "no idea" what he wants to do, then he shouldn't go to law school. But he said he's interested in BigLaw and NYC and the chances of WUSTL getting him either isn't great.

[théo]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset.

+1

[Wholigan]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset.

+1

As if the co-op board would actually let a WUSTL grad buy a unit in their building.

[nickwar]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset than having thrown away $250k+ for whatever advantage there is at having a Columbia degree over a Washington U degree. Not to mention there's still a shot at NYC biglaw with a Wash U degree if you do well enough. Maybe top 10-15% at Wash U. vs. MAYBE top 25-35% (right now) at Columbia? Who knows what Columbia's actual chances are in this economy.

Um, no. Even ITE, Columbia has at least 50-60% placement (if not higher). WUSTL is lucky if they're at 20%.
If OP goes to WUSTL, my guess is mid-way first semester he's trolling around the transfer forum... and then after grades, all hope of BigLawl is lost and free law school just ends up being three wasted years and trying to get a $30k person injury gig in East St. Louis.

/Mr. Anon
/But not inaccurate... OP, go to CLS (or pray you get $$ somewhere in between)

So you think it's reasonable to shell out $250k for a 20-30% or even 30-40% higher chance at biglaw? I just can't get with that.

It's not like he's choosing between no degree and a $250k Columbia degree. Wash U. is a top-20 school and it seems he got a fantastic scholarship from them. There's just no way I'm going a $1/4 million in debt for a slightly higher chance at NYC biglaw (and I would absolutely love to be in NYC biglaw). It's just not a reasonable choice. Maybe OP doesn't quite understand how much money $250k (much, much more after interest payments) actually is.

[nickwar]

I said it before but I think it bears repeating: the kid sounds like he has no idea what he wants at this point. People who are confused or wishy wasn't SHOULD NOT be taking on 210K+ in debt. I'm not saying that Columbia can't possibly be the right choice in the end. But given the info he provided? I can't see how anyone in good conscience (unless if course people are answeri.g the question based on what THEY would pick) can recommend that this kid go a quarter million dollars into debt.

I would only agree with this if OP was from St. Louis or had family there. If OP really has "no idea" what he wants to do, then he shouldn't go to law school. But he said he's interested in BigLaw and NYC and the chances of WUSTL getting him either isn't great.

I don't care how "interested" he says he is in biglaw. It's not worth $250k+ over a free top-20 degree with a chance (albeit smaller) at biglaw. Ever.

[FiveSermon]

If you really want to live in New York -- go to Wash U for free, buy this apartment:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-A ... 9891_zpid/

with the money you saved and then thank me every day for guiding you to the correct decision.

You'd be better off working in a New York bar and having your apartment as an asset than having thrown away $250k+ for whatever advantage there is at having a Columbia degree over a Washington U degree. Not to mention there's still a shot at NYC biglaw with a Wash U degree if you do well enough. Maybe top 10-15% at Wash U. vs. MAYBE top 25-35% (right now) at Columbia? Who knows what Columbia's actual chances are in this economy.

Um, no. Even ITE, Columbia has at least 50-60% placement (if not higher). WUSTL is lucky if they're at 20%.
If OP goes to WUSTL, my guess is mid-way first semester he's trolling around the transfer forum... and then after grades, all hope of BigLawl is lost and free law school just ends up being three wasted years and trying to get a $30k person injury gig in East St. Louis.

/Mr. Anon
/But not inaccurate... OP, go to CLS (or pray you get $$ somewhere in between)

So you think it's reasonable to shell out $250k for a 20-30% or even 30-40% higher chance at biglaw? I just can't get with that.

It's not like he's choosing between no degree and a $250k Columbia degree. Wash U. is a top-20 school and it seems he got a fantastic scholarship from them. There's just no way I'm going a $1/4 million in debt for a slightly higher chance at NYC biglaw (and I would absolutely love to be in NYC biglaw). It's just not a reasonable choice. Maybe OP doesn't quite understand how much money $250k (much, much more after interest payments) actually is.

You underestimate the difference.

WASHU's rankings are deceptive. They placed someting like 18% into biglaw while Columbia did something like 45%. If you include article 3 clerkships the difference is even greater.

Top 20 means absolutely nothing. There are schools that rank in the 30s that place almost 2x better than WASHU into biglaw. Just look at BC.

You talk as if rankings matter. "Slightly higher chance at NYC biglaw". I don't even know what to say to that. Columbia probably gives OP 4-5x better chances at NYC biglaw. You would have to be near top 10% of your class at WASHU to have a reasonable shot at NYC biglaw compared to what...top 40% to median at Columbia?

And please...don't mention rankings. Columbia may be ranked 4th and washu 20th but the difference of 16 is far greater than some school ranked 30 vs 46. Maybe you chose the lower school with $ in a case that fits the latter. You shouldn't apply that reasoning to this case.

[adt231]

You underestimate the difference.

WASHU's rankings are deceptive. They placed someting like 18% into biglaw while Columbia did something like 45%. If you include article 3 clerkships the difference is even greater.

Top 20 means absolutely nothing. There are schools that rank in the 30s that place almost 2x better than WASHU into biglaw. Just look at BC.

You talk as if rankings matter. "Slightly higher chance at NYC biglaw". I don't even know what to say to that. Columbia probably gives OP 4-5x better chances at NYC biglaw. You would have to be near top 10% of your class at WASHU to have a reasonable shot at NYC biglaw compared to what...top 40% to median at Columbia?

And please...don't mention rankings. Columbia may be ranked 4th and washu 20th but the difference of 16 is far greater than some school ranked 30 vs 46. Maybe you chose the lower school with $ in a case that fits the latter. You shouldn't apply that reasoning to this case.

@nickwar: FiveSermon is being nice here. http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2011/03/class-of-2010-nlj-250-statistics/

Columbia: 55%
WashU: 19%

Also, add Article III clerkships. It probably becomes: 60-65% versus 20-25%. Then factor in the people at Columbia who do really well and go directly into public interest and take advantage of their awesome LRAP (yes, they are those at WUSTL as well, but I'd surmise that there is not as many AND they don't have a sweet LRAP). So, a VERY conservative estimate is: pay the 250k for increasing your chances of biglaw by 40%. It is not irrational to be afraid of making this decision, but it is by no means irrational to make.

And most importantly, not all biglaw is created equal. There are probably as many Columbia grads in V10 as there are at any law school (yes, even including HYS). WUSTL not so much.

I don't mean to say that rationality dictates that OP go to Columbia, but if OP really wants biglaw and REALLY wants NYC biglaw, then of course he should. If OP wants to play it safe and still have a less than 20% shot at biglaw and is okay with the midwest longterm, the WUSTL is a great option.

Either way, OP: congrats on the sweet options.

[gdane]

There are such things as 1l and 2L scholarships....

You need not assume youre doomed to be 200k in debt.

Anyway, columbia without a doubt. Everyone has heard of columbia. I guarantee that prior to reading usnwr rankings not many peolle knew what the hell wustl was