Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
get it to x
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:31 am

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby get it to x » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:01 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys


Can't seem to be true unless you count temps and doc reviewers.


Class of 2009 so OCI was in 2007 thus before the crash.


Yep agreed. Would not trust those stats and I'm sure those stats have plummeted since the economy tanked. As for what MrAnon posted, I still believe that your characterization is incredibly disparaging to the some of the folks who attend both Rutgers and Seton Hall. Some of these people want to be lawyers, they understand the debt issues, but this was the best situation for them for whatever reason. They'd be here regardless of what the economic climate is like.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:09 pm

keg411 wrote:BarbellDreams, you go to Pitt. Your school is no better (and in fact, employment prospects may be worse) and is more expensive. So unless you'd say that your degree is better than McDonald's, I wouldn't be so quick to talk shit on equivalent state schools.

Personally, I think Rutgers is worth it if you meet all three requirements:
1) You can keep your debt to $60k or under
2) You really really want to practice law and know something about both practice AND law school. Most of the people I know who are miserable and hate law school were straight from undergrad who had no idea what they were getting into. I like it, but I came into it all with eyes wide open (and I have family/friends in the field)
3) You want to work in NJ and are actually from NJ

Although I go to the other Rutgers, I would not have gone to law school at all if all of these criteria were not present. I was very successful first semester, got a great internship for the summer, and I actually really enjoy school and my classes. However, I was incredibly lucky and am incredibly rare and would not encourage people to go to law school based on my experiences.


1. Camden and Newark are not the same in terms of employment.
2. OP posted he was going at sticker, which doesn't go well with your 1st point. If debt is under 60k there are plenty of T3 schools I would even say are worth it. Hell, Dusquene is worth it to me if you can come out with under 60k and thats a T4. Problem is OP will not be under 60k by any means at sticker. In OP's particular situation any of those 3 schools is suicide IMO.
3. I dont want to get involved in a debate between a couple of T2 schools which are both more or less irrelevant in the TLS world. Lets just say all things being equal I would go to Pitt at sticker over Newark at sticker.

get it to x
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:31 am

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby get it to x » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:13 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
keg411 wrote:BarbellDreams, you go to Pitt. Your school is no better (and in fact, employment prospects may be worse) and is more expensive. So unless you'd say that your degree is better than McDonald's, I wouldn't be so quick to talk shit on equivalent state schools.

Personally, I think Rutgers is worth it if you meet all three requirements:
1) You can keep your debt to $60k or under
2) You really really want to practice law and know something about both practice AND law school. Most of the people I know who are miserable and hate law school were straight from undergrad who had no idea what they were getting into. I like it, but I came into it all with eyes wide open (and I have family/friends in the field)
3) You want to work in NJ and are actually from NJ

Although I go to the other Rutgers, I would not have gone to law school at all if all of these criteria were not present. I was very successful first semester, got a great internship for the summer, and I actually really enjoy school and my classes. However, I was incredibly lucky and am incredibly rare and would not encourage people to go to law school based on my experiences.


1. Camden and Newark are not the same in terms of employment.
2. OP posted he was going at sticker, which doesn't go well with your 1st point. If debt is under 60k there are plenty of T3 schools I would even say are worth it. Hell, Dusquene is worth it to me if you can come out with under 60k and thats a T4. Problem is OP will not be under 60k by any means at sticker. In OP's particular situation any of those 3 schools is suicide IMO.
3. I dont want to get involved in a debate between a couple of T2 schools which are both more or less irrelevant in the TLS world. Lets just say all things being equal I would go to Pitt at sticker over Newark at sticker.


Camden and Newark are on par, in my opinion, for the two major markets that they feed into.

User avatar
Justathought
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:16 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Justathought » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:16 pm

MrAnon wrote:180K of debt + 45K job in 4 years as a Rutgers grad is absolutely a worse option than McDonalds management position. I would say worse than cashier as well. Probably a line cook or the janitor person at McDonald's is in a worse position, but the line cook does learn transferable skills and could trade up to restaurant at some point.

The Rutgers grad might earn 60k by the time he is 30. With debt payments continuing for 20 years that is not a whole lot of dough.


Yeah, except that by the time he's 50, his income will be likely be entirely based on the quality of work he produces. If that work is strong, he very well might be doing quite well for himself. In addition, if he takes advantage of IBR, we are talking 15% of his annual income at most. Also, don't say the government will pull the rug out from under him and end IBR. While it is entirely possible that IBR will end at some point, if it stands through the duration of his enrollment, the government will not alter the terms of his deal. Plus IBR actually is a good thing for the government, its all interest, no principle. They make money off of IBR.

In addition, during the course of his career, situations will likely change. His wife might make good money, his parents might pass away and leave him a little something, he might make a wise investment with what disposable income he has. All these things amount to what is called life; I find it highly doubtful that his net worth will be entirely based on the law school he attended. As get it to X noted, if the person truly has a passion for the law and law school is not just a get rich quick scheme, than what's so bad about being a lawyer?

Advanced degrees are of questionable value if we are talking about strictly return on investment, but sometimes they are a prerequisite to the pursuit of a passion. People often invest 100k+ for a degree which leads to a career in teaching, and teachers are poor. I don't see this as a poor investment if you're passionate about the work. I don't know what motivates the OP, but if his passion is in law, and not line work at a fast food place, he should go to law school and try his best to succeed.

Also, Rutgers at full cost only amounts to about 120k in debt, before we factor in interest. I only mention this in case you were thinking that 180k was the starting price.

Finally, I will concede that retaking and trying for scholarships is a worthwhile endeavor for those who would be burdened by high levels of debt. Law school is an oddity, in the sense that it allows one to take a single test and makeup for all their prior academic failings. Eventually, he will have to attend though, if this is the career he wants, scholarship or not.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:24 pm

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby keg411 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:31 pm

BTW, I don't think OP should go at sticker. Going to anything below T14 at sticker is stupid (and T14 is probably stupid at sticker as well; but if I had the chance I would probably do it anyway because I think it's worth the risk). Also get it to x is right about employment being the same. Camden isn't better by any measurement (except maybe state court clerkships and that's because most South Jersey judges are ignored).

User avatar
Nicholasnickynic
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:32 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN - the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT, my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you, in fact I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.


Who is signing your PLUS Loan application ? It is you or your parents?

Because that extra 60k-100k in debt may not seem like a lot when thrown around the internet, but trust me those number are very, very real. it is not even really about the USNWR "ranking" of a school ranked in the 40s and a school ranked in the 80s. It is about how much you are going to pay AND your expected job prospects. If you are fine racking up a lot of debt for a lower ranked school with worse job prospects because you feel pressured from your parents go ahead, it doesn't effect me in the least. but realize that you don't need "t-14 numbers" to get a good scholarship. with a 165-6 LSAT, even for ppl with GPAs of say 3.2, you can get a between a 105-120k scholarship to Hofstra. proof.


I have very little desire to attend Hofstra, job prospects are very scarce coming out of that particular school. Look, I see the point you're trying to make. I just don't see it having much validity. I believe as long as you attend a reputable and respected school in the particular region you desire to practice, what's most important is that you distinguish yourself from your fellow classmates and hope that distinction will withstand competition coming from competitor schools. What I'm saying is that it's not all about where you attend, but more so about what you do where you attend. I do see your point in regards to the financial benefits of retaking the LSAT and scoring higher, but I was extremely stressed out during the months I was preparing for the LSAT. I had to quit my job to dedicate myself, and it's just an overall experience that I don't wish to revisit.


honestly, you sound a lot like me per one year ago. I got a 163 twice and was like "fuck this, I got money to a 40th ranked school, I could probably do better, but I'll just dominate and everything will be good to go." problem is, while I worked as if not harder than almost anyone here, I'm only sitting at the 40th percentile. so much for being a special snowflake. I'm not fucked, but my changes of BigLaw are limited. so yeah, you must go [b]right now then you probably want to go with Rutgers. but looking back, I wish I could reach back in time and strike some sense into myself..don't let that become you.[/b][/quote]

Exact same here. Im at a school in 30s on half scholly.. had 165, after 2.5 months of studying. I know I did not hit my limit, at the time, I was like good enough! But I didn't master word games- which are hte most learnable part. If I had taken a couple extra months, or even a month of just logic games... coulda gotten like a 167 or 168... would be at my school for damn near free now...

I have a summer job lined up wiht gov't, hoping it will pan out... still wish I could go back and do it again. It's scary as shit. The loans breathing down my back + exams + getting a summer job (alhtough I'm done with that now) ... that kind of stress is a hell like you've never experienced.

I cannot imagine paying more than I am now to go to a school with lesser chances... I can PM and give you more info on my stats + money +scholly + grade if you want... I am not trying to be elitest, and I do not think GWorBust is either... if you were to get a full ride to seaton or rutgers, I think you'd be in a BETTER spot than me. But when you look at job chances + money...

That being said... If you absolutely have to go to a law school, take seton or rutgers. They have pretty good reputations in Jersey, for what its worth. Hofstra basically does not even have a market. They get obliterated by the t14, schools like Boston U with ties to NY, lower T1 school in NY.. they have no kind of hold or niche or chance. Do not go there. I would not go there for free.
If I were you I would pick one of the other two schools and focus on a Jersey career.
Last edited by Nicholasnickynic on Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:33 pm

keg411 wrote:BTW, I don't think OP should go at sticker. Going to anything below T14 at sticker is stupid (and T14 is probably stupid at sticker as well; but if I had the chance I would probably do it anyway because I think it's worth the risk). Also get it to x is right about employment being the same. Camden isn't better by any measurement (except maybe state court clerkships and that's because most South Jersey judges are ignored).


Then we agree, at that price (sticker) going to Newark is basically suicide. That was my point when OP kept saying there are plenty of job opportunities. There are certainly some, but the # of those opportunities that will give OP a comfortable way to pay off 6 figures in debt are few and far between from Newark and risking a life of miserable debt on less than a coinflip is a worse decision than just working at McDonald's.

Though as note which has nothing to do with this thread I will say I think many T30's are worth it at sticker, but I am less debt adverse than the majority of TLS.

User avatar
Nicholasnickynic
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:39 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
keg411 wrote:BTW, I don't think OP should go at sticker. Going to anything below T14 at sticker is stupid (and T14 is probably stupid at sticker as well; but if I had the chance I would probably do it anyway because I think it's worth the risk). Also get it to x is right about employment being the same. Camden isn't better by any measurement (except maybe state court clerkships and that's because most South Jersey judges are ignored).


Then we agree, at that price (sticker) going to Newark is basically suicide. That was my point when OP kept saying there are plenty of job opportunities. There are certainly some, but the # of those opportunities that will give OP a comfortable way to pay off 6 figures in debt are few and far between from Newark and risking a life of miserable debt on less than a coinflip is a worse decision than just working at McDonald's.

Though as note which has nothing to do with this thread I will say I think many T30's are worth it at sticker, but I am less debt adverse than the majority of TLS.


The only schools that are worth stick outside of t-14 are ones that have a cheap sticker- see UGA (16k a year instate) and I think UNC is something similiar.

Most schools outside of t-14 have at best, what 30% chance of big law?
30% chance to be able to pay off your loans. bad life decision. 70% chance that you will be forced to try and work PI b/c of crushing debt or spend the next 35 years paying off your loans and/or have your wages garnished. No. Thats a horrible idea... especially when someone at a t20-t30 could go to a lower t1 for free. Nope. Your answer is objectively wrong.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby keg411 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:42 pm

I also don't think gworbust is being elitist. He goes to Tulane and realized that it wasn't all that great and he doesn't like law school. The vast majority of 1L's at every school would 100% agree with him. Like I said, I'm weird and I'm an exception and I wouldn't encourage anyone to go at all without work experience and a total grasp of what they were getting into.

I'll also say I disagree about most T30's at sticker (unless one is absolutely intent on working only in the region where the school is and is from that area and can somehow save $$$ on COL).

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:44 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
keg411 wrote:BTW, I don't think OP should go at sticker. Going to anything below T14 at sticker is stupid (and T14 is probably stupid at sticker as well; but if I had the chance I would probably do it anyway because I think it's worth the risk). Also get it to x is right about employment being the same. Camden isn't better by any measurement (except maybe state court clerkships and that's because most South Jersey judges are ignored).


Then we agree, at that price (sticker) going to Newark is basically suicide. That was my point when OP kept saying there are plenty of job opportunities. There are certainly some, but the # of those opportunities that will give OP a comfortable way to pay off 6 figures in debt are few and far between from Newark and risking a life of miserable debt on less than a coinflip is a worse decision than just working at McDonald's.

Though as note which has nothing to do with this thread I will say I think many T30's are worth it at sticker, but I am less debt adverse than the majority of TLS.


The only schools that are worth stick outside of t-14 are ones that have a cheap sticker- see UGA (16k a year instate) and I think UNC is something similiar.

Most schools outside of t-14 have at best, what 30% chance of big law?
30% chance to be able to pay off your loans. bad life decision. 70% chance that you will be forced to try and work PI b/c of crushing debt or spend the next 35 years paying off your loans and/or have your wages garnished. No. Thats a horrible idea... especially when someone at a t20-t30 could go to a lower t1 for free. Nope. Your answer is objectively wrong.


The problem is by that logic nothing is worth sticker outside HYS since at best you're getting a 50% chance for biglaw and thus basing your crushing debt decision on a coinflip. I think paying sticker at a fairly respected T30 in a decent market is simply more of a personal decision. I am an advocate of BU at sticker for example, however I fully understand the argument against it and think it really has to do more with personal choice rather than some sort of % when it comes to schools that have some solid name recognition in decent markets.

User avatar
Nicholasnickynic
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:46 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.


Actually, one more thing needs to be said...
he does not show up at law school, and they loan him all the money at once, and interest starts accumulating. They stagger the payments by semester, so first semester would only be paying interest on 40k or w/e not on 160k

Also, your #s are flawed in that he will not be able to get all 6.8% loans. He'll have to take out some grad plus which are at around 9.8%

User avatar
mrtoren
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby mrtoren » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:47 pm

MrAnon wrote:Isn't LRAP only for public interest? It appears that only 7% of a given class would be eligible.

Judicial clerkships as well as other government and public interest work count from what I can tell. Therefore almost 40% would qualify for LRAP.

BarbellDreams wrote:http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.

Out of State tuition can be ignored because everyone is eligible for In-state tuition. All graduate housing on campus is on a 12 month lease and it wouldn't be too hard to find a 12 month lease off campus. Thats all you need for in-state rates.

$40,990 estimated COA x 3 = $122,970.

However, tuition is only $22,344 and grad housing in the Talbott apartments is $9,650. Add in $2000/year for food and $3000/year for books, travel, and misc. Thats being generous; if you budgeted yourself you could cut another thousand per year probably. It comes out to $36994. Total COA $110,982.

U Pittsburgh is putting you in the same boat. If Rutgers students are screwed..you're screwed too.
Last edited by mrtoren on Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:50 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.


Actually, one more thing needs to be said...
he does not show up at law school, and they loan him all the money at once, and interest starts accumulating. They stagger the payments by semester, so first semester would only be paying interest on 40k or w/e not on 160k

Also, your #s are flawed in that he will not be able to get all 6.8% loans. He'll have to take out some grad plus which are at around 9.8%


I did a rough estimate in my head so the numbers are obvious a bit off, but it was just to get an idea. When you're in that range an extra grand or two really doesn't make a difference anymore IMO. The 6.8% was a random interest rate, I completely agree that the Grad PLUS loans will be more and thus inflate the number even further.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby keg411 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:51 pm

I'll agree with you on BU/BC since overall the Boston market handled the recession well. Even a friend who was a Boston BigLaw layoff victim landed on his feet fairly quickly in comparison. On the flipside, I probably would avoid higher ranked schools at sticker like USC/UCLA/WUSTL just because California and the midwest have responded very poorly to ITE.

But this thread has gone waaaay off topic at this point and I'll admit guilt in that :lol:. (I've been up since 5 am and I'm running on fumes at this point).

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:54 pm

mrtoren wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Isn't LRAP only for public interest? It appears that only 7% of a given class would be eligible.

Judicial clerkships as well as other government and public interest work count from what I can tell. Therefore almost 40% would qualify for LRAP.

BarbellDreams wrote:http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.

Out of State tuition can be ignored because everyone is eligible for In-state tuition. All graduate housing on campus is on a 12 month lease and it wouldn't be too hard to find a 12 month lease off campus. Thats all you need for in-state rates.

$40,990 estimated COA x 3 = $122,970.

However, tuition is only $22,344 and grad housing in the Talbott apartments is $9,650. Add in $2000/year for food and $3000/year for books, travel, and misc. Thats being generous; if you budgeted yourself you could cut another thousand or two per year probably. It comes out to $36994. Total COA $110,982.

U Pittsburgh is putting you in the same boat. If Rutgers students are screwed..you're screwed too.


A couple of things:

1. I don't know how Rutgers does it, but even if 100% of people received in-state tuition 2L and 3L you're still paying out of state 1L.
2. Who the hell wants to live in graduate housing provided by the school as a law student?
3. So basically your point is if you live super cheap you can come out of Newark with 110k debt plus interest over 3 years? Ok, I'll bite: Assuming all your numbers are entirely accurate, are yo honestly advocating that as a good investment.
4. Pitt is actually putting ME in a different boat because I am not at sticker, but with that said if I was 110k in debt I would feel safer at Pitt than I would at Newark.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:57 pm

keg411 wrote:I'll agree with you on BU/BC since overall the Boston market handled the recession well. Even a friend who was a Boston BigLaw layoff victim landed on his feet fairly quickly in comparison. On the flipside, I probably would avoid higher ranked schools at sticker like USC/UCLA/WUSTL just because California and the midwest have responded very poorly to ITE.

But this thread has gone waaaay off topic at this point and I'll admit guilt in that :lol:. (I've been up since 5 am and I'm running on fumes at this point).


CA market is downright scary stuff so not sure what USC with 190k or so at graduation looks like but schools like BC and BU along with my favorite, Vandy, are schools I personally feel are a fine sticker investment. Just my .02, and I completely understand the argument against anything close to sticker from anything outside of HYS as well.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby keg411 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:58 pm

NJ is weird. People can get in-state as a 1L even if they are out-of-state. I'm pretty sure the two Rutgers schools are the only schools in the country that do this. We apparently have super lenient residency rules and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing :lol:.

Also, I'd feel more comfortable at 110k at Rutgers than at Pitt (though it's icky and far from preferable), but that's because I'm from NJ and have connections here. Someone from Western PA would probably think the exact opposite ( don't include eastern PA because apparently a lot of people there hate Pittsburgh/Western PA. I didn't know this until I moved to the Philly area; and maybe it's rubbing off on me).

User avatar
Justathought
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:16 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Justathought » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:00 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
mrtoren wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Isn't LRAP only for public interest? It appears that only 7% of a given class would be eligible.

Judicial clerkships as well as other government and public interest work count from what I can tell. Therefore almost 40% would qualify for LRAP.

BarbellDreams wrote:http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

CoA at Newark based on their own projection (assuming not living with parents obviously):

In-state: 135k
Out of State: 168k

Throw a compounding 6.8% interest rate on that and a year after graduation it will end up being roughly:

In-state: 149k
Out of state: 184k

Nothing else really needs to be said.

Out of State tuition can be ignored because everyone is eligible for In-state tuition. All graduate housing on campus is on a 12 month lease and it wouldn't be too hard to find a 12 month lease off campus. Thats all you need for in-state rates.

$40,990 estimated COA x 3 = $122,970.

However, tuition is only $22,344 and grad housing in the Talbott apartments is $9,650. Add in $2000/year for food and $3000/year for books, travel, and misc. Thats being generous; if you budgeted yourself you could cut another thousand or two per year probably. It comes out to $36994. Total COA $110,982.

U Pittsburgh is putting you in the same boat. If Rutgers students are screwed..you're screwed too.


A couple of things:

1. I don't know how Rutgers does it, but even if 100% of people received in-state tuition 2L and 3L you're still paying out of state 1L.
2. Who the hell wants to live in graduate housing provided by the school as a law student?
3. So basically your point is if you live super cheap you can come out of Newark with 110k debt plus interest over 3 years? Ok, I'll bite: Assuming all your numbers are entirely accurate, are yo honestly advocating that as a good investment.
4. Pitt is actually putting ME in a different boat because I am not at sticker, but with that said if I was 110k in debt I would feel safer at Pitt than I would at Newark.


1L is in state too. You can achieve this via the following: Sign a lease prior to the start of classes, live with a relative, live on campus. You may even be able to do it with a simple roommate agreement, but I'm not sure about that one. I've spoken to a few people in the administration on this matter, as Rutgers is one of the schools I'm still considering.

User avatar
mrtoren
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby mrtoren » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:02 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:A couple of things:

1. I don't know how Rutgers does it, but even if 100% of people received in-state tuition 2L and 3L you're still paying out of state 1L.
2. Who the hell wants to live in graduate housing provided by the school as a law student?
3. So basically your point is if you live super cheap you can come out of Newark with 110k debt plus interest over 3 years? Ok, I'll bite: Assuming all your numbers are entirely accurate, are yo honestly advocating that as a good investment.
4. Pitt is actually putting ME in a different boat because I am not at sticker, but with that said if I was 110k in debt I would feel safer at Pitt than I would at Newark.

1. You get in-state rates during your first year. You merely show them a 12 month lease signed before the start of school and you get in-state rates from 1L on.
2. Its an option. Sorry I didn't craigslist current apartment rents in the area.
3. My numbers are accurate.
4. You've watered yourself down to a Pittsburgh vs. Newark geographical war. Which city is better? Who knows. I would like to see employment statistics out of U Pittsburgh though. I would bet they are about the same as Rutgers considering they're both Tier 2 schools that less than 15 ranks apart.
Last edited by mrtoren on Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:03 pm

keg411 wrote:NJ is weird. People can get in-state as a 1L even if they are out-of-state. I'm pretty sure the two Rutgers schools are the only schools in the country that do this. We apparently have super lenient residency rules and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing :lol:.

Also, I'd feel more comfortable at 110k at Rutgers than at Pitt (though it's icky and far from preferable), but that's because I'm from NJ and have connections here. Someone from Western PA would probably think the exact opposite ( don't include eastern PA because apparently a lot of people there hate Pittsburgh/Western PA. I didn't know this until I moved to the Philly area; and maybe it's rubbing off on me).


Yeah, Pitt has some hate from Philly as does Nova/Temple here. The only reason I feel safer here is that there are more schools in the NJ area along with all the grads who dont get jobs from T2 NY schools as opposed to here where we have Dusquene and maybe a t14 here or there. For the most part every single person I interviewed with this year has been a Pitt alum and classmates below median are getting summer work left and right. With that said neither of our degrees go much further than 3-4 hours outside the area anyway.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:05 pm

mrtoren wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:A couple of things:

1. I don't know how Rutgers does it, but even if 100% of people received in-state tuition 2L and 3L you're still paying out of state 1L.
2. Who the hell wants to live in graduate housing provided by the school as a law student?
3. So basically your point is if you live super cheap you can come out of Newark with 110k debt plus interest over 3 years? Ok, I'll bite: Assuming all your numbers are entirely accurate, are yo honestly advocating that as a good investment.
4. Pitt is actually putting ME in a different boat because I am not at sticker, but with that said if I was 110k in debt I would feel safer at Pitt than I would at Newark.

1. You get in-state rates during your first year. You merely show them a 12 month lease signed before the start of school and you get in-state rates from 1L on.
2. My numbers are accurate.
3. You've watered yourself down to a Pittsburgh vs. Newark geographical war. Which city is better? Who knows. I would like to see employment statistics out of U Pittsburgh though. I would bet they are about the same as Rutgers considering they're both Tier 2 schools that less than 15 ranks apart.


I didnt say your numbers were inaccurate, you just didnt answer the question: Are you honestly advocating that 110k + interest from Newark is a good investment?

User avatar
mrtoren
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby mrtoren » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:11 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I didnt say your numbers were inaccurate, you just didnt answer the question: Are you honestly advocating that 110k + interest from Newark is a good investment?

Is ideal? Obviously not...free scholarship money is always a good thing. However, I honestly don't think its a bad investment. As has been stated, the school places the second highest number of judicial clerkships behind Yale. The New Jersey market is not NYC, Boston or Philly, but like any metropolitan area, it has a lot of opportunities. Some graduates will also successfully migrate to Philly or NYC or other surrounding areas. In any event, as an aspiring prosecutor and current intern at a State's Attorney's Office, Rutgers offers a great program to get people like me into the field. I'm looking forward to applying in the near future.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:15 pm

mrtoren wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I didnt say your numbers were inaccurate, you just didnt answer the question: Are you honestly advocating that 110k + interest from Newark is a good investment?

Is ideal? Obviously not...free scholarship money is always a good thing. However, I honestly don't think its a bad investment. As has been stated, the school places the second highest number of judicial clerkships behind Yale. The New Jersey market is not NYC, Boston or Philly, but like any metropolitan area, it has a lot of opportunities. Some graduates will also successfully migrate to Philly or NYC or other surrounding areas. In any event, as an aspiring prosecutor and current intern at a State's Attorney's Office, Rutgers offers a great program to get people like me into the field. I'm looking forward to applying in the near future.


There is no right or wrong, its just where we differ. To me going to a T2 that does not dominate its own market and has competition for 6 figures in debt is not something I would advise anyone to do. Just IMO of course.

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby MrAnon » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:21 pm

mrtoren wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I didnt say your numbers were inaccurate, you just didnt answer the question: Are you honestly advocating that 110k + interest from Newark is a good investment?

Is ideal? Obviously not...free scholarship money is always a good thing. However, I honestly don't think its a bad investment. As has been stated, the school places the second highest number of judicial clerkships behind Yale. The New Jersey market is not NYC, Boston or Philly, but like any metropolitan area, it has a lot of opportunities. Some graduates will also successfully migrate to Philly or NYC or other surrounding areas. In any event, as an aspiring prosecutor and current intern at a State's Attorney's Office, Rutgers offers a great program to get people like me into the field. I'm looking forward to applying in the near future.


You realize it places the second highest number of "judicial clerkships" behind Yale because NJ has a byzantine court system of traffic courts and family courts. You realize the quality of the "judicial clerkships" that Rutgers kids get are embarrassingly bad when compared to Yale? You realize virtually all of them are in New Jersey state courts, and a large percentage of them are in New Jersey State Traffic Court? Beyond that, one can't hang on to a traffic court clerkship forever. One has to find a job as a traffic ticket lawyer or set up solo shop as a traffic ticket lawyer.

If jobs were available that paid more than the average salary (45K) than the clerkships offer, the grads would be taking them. Again, these types of clerkships are not the types of clerkships (i.e. Federal Courts) that one postpones joining the corporate world to take.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dcc617, hwwong, PantoroB and 7 guests