Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall Forum

[get it to x]

2L. Small scholarship. High GPA, moderately ok LSAT (low 160's). I mean ideally I'd go to NYU or Columbia if I could have, but LSAT-wise it just was not in the cards for me. I'm content with Rutgers, the quality of my education is high (although no one on TLS really cares about the quality of their education, just what large firm or prestigious gov't job they'll apply hyper-early to and then wonder why it's been 48 hours and they haven't heard back yet), and I have a SA position that I'm looking forward to.

Hey X,

I stalk Rutgers threads, as you know. Since you're taking questions, I have a few quality of life ones to ask.

How's the social environment at school? Since it seems like such a commuter school (maybe I'm wrong there), do students tend to socialize outside of class?

We've spoken about Rutgers public interest focus, but are there legitimate networking opportunities with firms?

How's the general campus atmosphere? Would you describe it as a vibrant, i.e. crowded, lots of things to see and do? Every time I seem to visit its largely deserted, but this is probably due to heavy rain and/or it being a weekend - in my case.

Thanks!

Rutgers is a commuter school. Any law school in a metropolitan area is going to have this sort of flavor to a degree. People come from all over Jersey, New York City, even Brooklyn. With so many people commuting, the school does empty out after classes are over because people have to contend with rush hour traffic. There are some who stick around when you have to (guest lectures, journal stuff, student clubs, etc.)

I honestly don't spend time on campus. From what I've seen there's not too many students walking around. I don't know if this is because classes are in session at different points. My only contact with undergrads is when I ask them to politely shut up in the library because I'm trying to read. I guess my best piece of advice is to not get hung up on atmosphere. It's professional school. You're being trained to enter the legal profession. You won't have the time to enjoy anything going on during 1L anyway.

Firms come to Rutgers. Several (read 2-3) are NYC biglaw firms. If you have a very very high GPA they may even want to talk to you (perhaps even hire you if you don't have any major personality flaws and are proficient at filing paperwork). Most firms are mid-law Jersey/NY firms. These jobs used to be pretty easy to get if you were at median/above and were well-rounded (you have interests other than the law), but with the economy the way it is they're tough to get now. Lots of small-law firms hire Rutgers grads as well. Pay is not biglaw by any stretch of the imagination, but if you need employment it's better than nothing. You may even be able to go to court!

[get it to x]

Get it to x - I'm a prospective Rutgers student, and wanted to throw a question by you while I was on this thread.

Being from out of state I was wondering how prevalent are students that are from the area with roots there, and if you know any out of state students how easy has it been for them to get acclimated to the school / area / job search?

Rutgers students are primarily from NJ and NY. You will find the occasional IL, CA, WI transplant, but by and large it's Jersey and New York folks. Rutgers is a regional law school. Does this preclude you from securing employment outside of north Jersey and NY? Nope. Will it be easy? Absolutely not. If you don't have connections (and I'm stressing good connections) in your home market and can't stand the thought of practicing in northern New Jersey (can't count on NY employment in this economy) then I would not attend RU.

[gwuorbust]

I know what you're saying. My girlfriend is a 3L and she's explained to me how 2 points on an exam can mean the difference between a B+ or a C. It sucks, I totally get it. Let me ask you this, when you say if you could reach back and strike some sens into yourself, what would you have done differently?

I would have gone into the work-force, studied like crazy for the LSAT and hopefully be at GW right now with a scholarship. the only thing that worked out in my favor is that I didn't get off the GW WL b/c I would have jumped onto that and by the end I would be graduating with 250k in debt

[gwuorbust]

honestly, you sound a lot like me per one year ago. I got a 163 twice and was like "fuck this, I got money to a 40th ranked school, I could probably do better, but I'll just dominate and everything will be good to go." problem is, while I worked as if not harder than almost anyone here, I'm only sitting at the 40th percentile. so much for being a special snowflake. I'm not fucked, but my changes of BigLaw are limited. so yeah, you must go right now then you probably want to go with Rutgers. but looking back, I wish I could reach back in time and strike some sense into myself..don't let that become you.

Is that the reason youre pushing him so hard? Not everyone is interested in BigLaw. I can't speak for the OP's aspirations, but Rutgers is well known for its public interest law program. Beyond that, and contrary to your earlier statements, networking is vital. Networking is important to attaining many jobs in this economy. If the OP works hard at Rutgers and works even harder at their summer internships, doors can open. We like to think achievement and merit rule...but its usually who you know and how much they like you.

no, but debt is fucking scary. I'm looking at paying off 120k (undergrad + 100k LS). like I said earlier, pro bono is the one bright spot among lower ranked LS. sure it may not be as prestigious pro bono work, but if your goal is to help ppl who cares about that? and since you debt is wiped out after 10 years it doesn't matter as much where you go.

but if you are talking about the ~70% of ppl who probably want a good paying job, then it is always best to try to maximize earning potential and minimize debt.

[gwuorbust]

I wrote what you crossed out glibly and I, by no means, was trying to solely emphasize the "networking is key" approach to securing a summer/2L job. I meant that you shape your own law school experience. If you think that grades alone from a school in the NY area not named Columbia or NYU is going open doors alone for you...you are severely mistaken. Creating a well-balanced resume, and yes, networking all help to separate yourself from the rest of the crowd and, unfortunately, there are no guarantees that it might work. Being flexible and finding success and unforeseen advantages that present themselves in different opportunities that might have been outside of your original focus will help you make the most out of your law school experience.


Btw, OP I'm a current Rutgers student if that remains unclear. Feel free to ask any questions about the school. I'll try to give you as balanced an answer as I can.

I am the first one to say that this is the truth. but to use this as justification for going to a lower ranked school is foolish, thus why I crossed it out. there are quite simply not enough legal jobs for all the graduates out there.

[get it to x]

2L. Small scholarship. High GPA, moderately ok LSAT (low 160's). I mean ideally I'd go to NYU or Columbia if I could have, but LSAT-wise it just was not in the cards for me. I'm content with Rutgers, the quality of my education is high (although no one on TLS really cares about the quality of their education, just what large firm or prestigious gov't job they'll apply hyper-early to and then wonder why it's been 48 hours and they haven't heard back yet), and I have a SA position that I'm looking forward to.

Nice. In terms of your peers, I know the class is very diverse in regard to ethnicity, what is your take on everyone? Easy to socialize and so on? I mean one of the main reasons I was put off by Seton Hall was the fact it seems like everyone there is one in the same, if you meet one person you could probably bet the next guy comes from a very similar demographic, has very similar views, and so on. You know what I'm trying to say? Also, what is your take on the professors?

EDIT: just noticed this thread is heading towards the direction I initially hoped. Welcome prospective/future Rutgers 1L's.

RU is highly highly diverse. They aren't joking around with the level of diversity. People from all walks of life (older students, lots of different races and ethnicities, etc.). Most of the people here, which may be to your surprise, went to top undergrad schools so the classroom experience is not a bunch of lightweights. Most people tend to get along pretty well. There are your gunners, folks who were here solely to transfer and don't because they can't, etc. but they don't dominate the academic scene. Professors vary. You can have a great one followed by a horrific one. Really luck of the draw for 1L. It gets better as you advance because you know who to avoid and who to take.

[get it to x]

I wrote what you crossed out glibly and I, by no means, was trying to solely emphasize the "networking is key" approach to securing a summer/2L job. I meant that you shape your own law school experience. If you think that grades alone from a school in the NY area not named Columbia or NYU is going open doors alone for you...you are severely mistaken. Creating a well-balanced resume, and yes, networking all help to separate yourself from the rest of the crowd and, unfortunately, there are no guarantees that it might work. Being flexible and finding success and unforeseen advantages that present themselves in different opportunities that might have been outside of your original focus will help you make the most out of your law school experience.


Btw, OP I'm a current Rutgers student if that remains unclear. Feel free to ask any questions about the school. I'll try to give you as balanced an answer as I can.

I am the first one to say that this is the truth. but to use this as justification for going to a lower ranked school is foolish, thus why I crossed it out. there are quite simply not enough legal jobs for all the graduates out there.

I absolutely agree with you. You should not bank on networking in any form when going through this process. As far as the debt goes, any law school endeavor is expensive. RU is relatively economical compared to private schools. The problem is that the stereotype of the legal profession as the golden ticket to a "better" life still perpetuates many applicants today. That's just not the case and that's even true now for some people who attend top-14 schools. If you want to become a lawyer, know that this is your passion, and so on you know that debt is part of the process. You'll find a way to pay it off because you're passionate about what you do and you might even be good at it too. On the other hand, if your major attraction to law is the opportunity to work at Simpson Thacher primarily because you want to roll into some swank Tribeca eatery and order a $60 medium-rare burger with cheese flown in from Sweden you might want to reconsider because a) you won't have time to enjoy that burger because you will be working all day and probably a substantive portion of the night and b) there are less-expensive and nightmarish ways of enjoying that same burger without all the debt.

[sam_f]

I know what you're saying. My girlfriend is a 3L and she's explained to me how 2 points on an exam can mean the difference between a B+ or a C. It sucks, I totally get it. Let me ask you this, when you say if you could reach back and strike some sens into yourself, what would you have done differently?

I would have gone into the work-force, studied like crazy for the LSAT and hopefully be at GW right now with a scholarship. the only thing that worked out in my favor is that I didn't get off the GW WL b/c I would have jumped onto that and by the end I would be graduating with 250k in debt

Totally understandable. I was thinking of taking a little educational hiatus in favor of working and saving some money but my father was very opposed to the idea. My rationale was hoping that the economy would pick up, but the closer I follow politics the more I realize that's probably not the best idea. I might have to indefinitely put off higher education if that's what I rely on. Sad but true. Any advice you can give to a 1L?

[gwuorbust]

I wrote what you crossed out glibly and I, by no means, was trying to solely emphasize the "networking is key" approach to securing a summer/2L job. I meant that you shape your own law school experience. If you think that grades alone from a school in the NY area not named Columbia or NYU is going open doors alone for you...you are severely mistaken. Creating a well-balanced resume, and yes, networking all help to separate yourself from the rest of the crowd and, unfortunately, there are no guarantees that it might work. Being flexible and finding success and unforeseen advantages that present themselves in different opportunities that might have been outside of your original focus will help you make the most out of your law school experience.


Btw, OP I'm a current Rutgers student if that remains unclear. Feel free to ask any questions about the school. I'll try to give you as balanced an answer as I can.

I am the first one to say that this is the truth. but to use this as justification for going to a lower ranked school is foolish, thus why I crossed it out. there are quite simply not enough legal jobs for all the graduates out there.

I absolutely agree with you. You should not bank on networking in any form when going through this process. As far as the debt goes, any law school endeavor is expensive. RU is relatively economical compared to private schools. The problem is that the stereotype of the legal profession as the golden ticket to a "better" life still perpetuates many applicants today. That's just not the case and that's even true now for some people who attend top-14 schools. If you want to become a lawyer, know that this is your passion, and so on you know that debt is part of the process. You'll find a way to pay it off because you're passionate about what you do and you might even be good at it too. On the other hand, if your major attraction to law is the opportunity to work at Simpson Thacher primarily because you want to roll into some swank Tribeca eatery and order a $60 medium-rare burger with cheese flown in from Sweden you might want to reconsider because a) you won't have time to enjoy that burger because you will be working all day and probably a substantive portion of the night and b) there are less-expensive and nightmarish ways of enjoying that same burger without all the debt.

+1million

ppl are starting to realize that LS =/= golden ticket, but there is still a LOT of attitude shift that needs to occur. I see threads with ppl saying they'll just take a 100k job if they can't get BigLaw and I'm like righht.

IRL I try to avoid talking about LS because if forced to talk about it I just say so much BS. all the 1Ls here at my school are still wide-eyed and happy-go-lucky. tis the main reason I'm not partying right now. the interactions are just so fake. ppl believe that it is all still good out there.. and it's really not.

[MrAnon]

We're just hoping you don't make a bad life choice. Seems like more and more people around here who ended up at lower ranked schools wish they hadnt

[get it to x]

We're just hoping you don't make a bad life choice. Seems like more and more people around here who ended up at lower ranked schools wish they hadnt

But couldn't you say the same the same thing for ppl who attended top 30 schools (not on scholarship) and are struggling to find a job? Same basic theory holds for top-14 students who miss out on Biglaw are saddled with huge amounts of debt and will now take 10 years to pay off their loans. It's still a high risk, high reward venture for most people.

[MrAnon]

I would say extremely risky at the top (1 out of 2 chance of getting a job that pays your debt), ultra extremely risky at T30 (1 out of 6), and pure economic suicide after that (1 out of 15).

[Patriot1208]

I would say extremely risky at the top (1 out of 2 chance of getting a job that pays your debt), ultra extremely risky at T30 (1 out of 6), and pure economic suicide after that (1 out of 15).

But at least people at the top sometimes get bailed out by lrap and ibr

[MrAnon]

I guess. But thinking in terms of the bigger picture, it is pure economic slavery. How many women would rush to marry a man making 50K who is locked into PI work for a decade (he'll never make much money, probably barely touch 6 figures after 20 years in PI) and where 10% of his money goes to debt service.

Beyond that all these programs that relieve students in PI of debt could be wiped away in a second. Congress can rescind IBR in a second and will if austerity measures hit this country (virtually every other industrialized country in the west is dealing with this now). LRAP depends on donations, endowments, and things that rise and fall with economies and job prospects of alumni.

[get it to x]

I agree that it's a risky economic venture for anyone who is not in a position to take on a large amount of debt. I also believe that if you want to become a lawyer for the law's sake, you won't care what you're doing as much. If you look at the current spins of most TLS posters regarding their pursuit of law, I'd venture to say that only a small percentage are studying law because they actually want to become lawyers and enjoy the practice of law. For many, it's a "get rich quick" scheme. I study for the LSAT, get a high score, go to a top law school, get a job in a top law firm for my 3-5 tour pay back my debts maybe put a little money away, but primarily improve my quality of life and either try to make partner or transfer to mid-law. A dearth of discussions actually reveal many posters who love the practice of law.

[mrtoren]

Rutgers seems to report their employment data fairly openly in comparison to many law schools. I'm sure the numbers may be fudged here or there, but their employment statistics are detailed to say the least. (--LinkRemoved--)

Graduating class of 2009:
94 went into Private Practice, $39,000-$160,000, average $128,022
70 went into Judicial Clerkships, $40,000-$56,000, average $45,722
37 went into Business or Industry, $55,000-$400,000, average $141,571
14 went into Government, $37,000-$150,000, average $63,572
2 went into Public Interest, $30,000-$50,000, average $40,000
2 went into Academia, $112,000-$112,000, average $112,000
1 went into Military, $60,000-$60,000, average $60,000

Of those who went into Private Practice:
22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys
6 ended up in firms with 251-500 attorneys
13 ended up in firms with 101-250 attorneys
9 ended up in firms with 51-100 attorneys
2 ended up in firms with 26-50 attorneys
9 ended up in firms with 11-25 attorneys
31 ended up in firms with 2-10 attorneys

While I would have preferred medians instead of averages, it appears Rutgers-Newark graduates can make a living after law school. The pay isn't always the best, but Rutgers also has an LRAP program for those employed with non-profit or government agencies. I've been trying to decipher what the exact benefits of the LRAP are, but if anyone wants to take a look at it and report back, the pages are (http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/public-se ... ce-program) and (http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/L ... bility.pdf)

[BarbellDreams]

I can't believe I am saying this but everything gwuorbust has said in this thread is TCR. Retaking>>>>>>>>>Rutgers>McDonald's job>Seton Hall.

[get it to x]

I can't believe I am saying this but everything gwuorbust has said in this thread is TCR. Retaking>>>>>>>>>Rutgers>McDonald's job>Seton Hall.

Honestly, a Rutgers degree better than a McDonald's job? It's b.s. statements like this that make TLS absolutely worthless at points. People at both schools work just as hard as others elsewhere for a piece of the legal pie. Don't disparage those who see both schools as a vehicle to accomplish their professional goals by comparing their endeavors to be either worse or better than a fast-food services position.

[BarbellDreams]

I can't believe I am saying this but everything gwuorbust has said in this thread is TCR. Retaking>>>>>>>>>Rutgers>McDonald's job>Seton Hall.

Honestly, a Rutgers degree better than a McDonald's job? It's b.s. statements like this that make TLS absolutely worthless at points. People at both schools work just as hard as others elsewhere for a piece of the legal pie. Don't disparage those who see both schools as a vehicle to accomplish their professional goals by comparing their endeavors to be either worse or better than a fast-food services position.

The problem is that your "legal pie" has shrunk to the point where schools that you listed are barely fighting for 40k/year jobs right now. This is meant as no disrespect, but simply as a eye opener from a current law student to a 0L: THE. MARKET. IS. TERRIBLE. All those "I know its bad but I'll work REALLY hard and I know that I'LL make it" are cute and all but in the end you're basically risking a lifetime of debt repayment you'll be barely able to afford on less than a coinflip that you'll get a decent paying job. The Rutgers stats posted above are 2009 as in before the economy crashed. At that time students from Tier 4 schools were getting the 40-60k jobs and bitching about it and a T2 student could land 80k+ easily. Thats just not how it works anymore and the sooner 0L's get it the better.

[MrAnon]

Rutgers seems to report their employment data fairly openly in comparison to many law schools. I'm sure the numbers may be fudged here or there, but their employment statistics are detailed to say the least. (--LinkRemoved--)

Graduating class of 2009:
94 went into Private Practice, $39,000-$160,000, average $128,022
70 went into Judicial Clerkships, $40,000-$56,000, average $45,722
37 went into Business or Industry, $55,000-$400,000, average $141,571
14 went into Government, $37,000-$150,000, average $63,572
2 went into Public Interest, $30,000-$50,000, average $40,000
2 went into Academia, $112,000-$112,000, average $112,000
1 went into Military, $60,000-$60,000, average $60,000

Of those who went into Private Practice:
22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys
6 ended up in firms with 251-500 attorneys
13 ended up in firms with 101-250 attorneys
9 ended up in firms with 51-100 attorneys
2 ended up in firms with 26-50 attorneys
9 ended up in firms with 11-25 attorneys
31 ended up in firms with 2-10 attorneys

While I would have preferred medians instead of averages, it appears Rutgers-Newark graduates can make a living after law school. The pay isn't always the best, but Rutgers also has an LRAP program for those employed with non-profit or government agencies. I've been trying to decipher what the exact benefits of the LRAP are, but if anyone wants to take a look at it and report back, the pages are (http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/public-se ... ce-program) and (http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/u/L ... bility.pdf)

Isn't LRAP only for public interest? It appears that only 7% of a given class would be eligible.

[MrAnon]

180K of debt + 45K job in 4 years as a Rutgers grad is absolutely a worse option than McDonalds management position. I would say worse than cashier as well. Probably a line cook or the janitor person at McDonald's is in a worse position, but the line cook does learn transferable skills and could trade up to restaurant at some point.

The Rutgers grad might earn 60k by the time he is 30. With debt payments continuing for 20 years that is not a whole lot of dough.

[MrAnon]

22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys

hmmm

[BarbellDreams]

22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys

Can't seem to be true unless you count temps and doc reviewers.

Class of 2009 so OCI was in 2007 thus before the crash.

[keg411]

BarbellDreams, you go to Pitt. Your school is no better (and in fact, employment prospects may be worse) and is more expensive. So unless you'd say that your degree is better than McDonald's, I wouldn't be so quick to talk shit on equivalent state schools.

Personally, I think Rutgers is worth it if you meet all three requirements:
1) You can keep your debt to $60k or under
2) You really really want to practice law and know something about both practice AND law school. Most of the people I know who are miserable and hate law school were straight from undergrad who had no idea what they were getting into. I like it, but I came into it all with eyes wide open (and I have family/friends in the field)
3) You want to work in NJ and are actually from NJ

Although I go to the other Rutgers, I would not have gone to law school at all if all of these criteria were not present. I was very successful first semester, got a great internship for the summer, and I actually really enjoy school and my classes. However, I was incredibly lucky and am incredibly rare and would not encourage people to go to law school based on my experiences.

[gwuorbust]

22 ended up in firms with 501+ attorneys

Can't seem to be true unless you count temps and doc reviewers.

Class of 2009 so OCI was in 2007 thus before the crash.

applications are really going to drop when the class of 2010 and then 2011 employment info is released...