Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

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sam_f
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Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:04 am

Got accepted to all the above. The only school that offered me a scholarship was Hofstra (20k). I was very disappointed that Seton Hall didn't even throw me the 8k that they offer to their undergrads by default, considering I qualified in regards to their requirements - minimum 158 LSAT and 3.5 GPA. Just wondering if anyone here is in the NJ area and was offered a scholarship to either Seton Hall or Rutgers, if you wouldn't mind sharing your numbers with me.

On another note, I am leaning towards attending Rutgers solely on the price of tuition of this school compared to the aforementioned institutions. However, has anyone been noticing the downward trend of Rutgers on the USNews Ranking? What's that about? Should it concern prospective students, or is it just a meaningless chart? Has Rutgers maintained it's reputation through the decline in the rankings?

Any advice from current Rutgers students would be appreciated. I'll likely attend the orientation later this month, just getting a bit anxious for some insider information.

I've lurked these forums intermittently in the past few months and realized that many people like to bash anything that's not NYU or Columbia, so save your keyboard strokes because either of these schools will suit me just fine. Rutgers and Seton Hall both place in the top 50 Go To Law Schools for employment prospects in NLJ250 Firms.

tourdeforcex
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby tourdeforcex » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:41 am

what are your goals?

yes rutgers is cheaper but say you want to clerk. from what i remember, seton hall places a lot of their grads into clerkships... a reason to pay more if that is your goal.

current students might be of more help. try looking at "rutgers 1L 2L 3Ls taking question threads" stuff like that

hope this helps.

awonderful
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby awonderful » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:42 pm

Rutgers places the second most clerkships second only to yale. But Seton Hall's rep in NJ seems to be better if you are looking to work at a midsize firm in NJ.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby gwuorbust » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:05 pm

retake or don't go

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mrtoren
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:20 pm

gwuorbust wrote:retake or don't go

This type of response has become a pandemic on these forums. The OP is not choosing between Cooley and Thomas Jefferson. All three of his schools are top 100 schools.

Without scholarship money from Seton Hall or Rutgers, and with $20k from Hofstra, I would strongly consider Rutgers. I don't know what kind of stipulations are attached to your Hofstra money, but if you lose it, you're looking at $43,000/year in tuition plus living expenses. Seton Hall is even higher at $45,000/year. In fact, their predicted cost of attendance is $67,000/year! Rutgers is affordable ($24,000/year) and safer since you don't have the stress of maintaining certain grades to keep your scholarship. In the event you don't find a high paying law job, as some nay-sayers predict, you're not looking at unmanageable six-figure debt either. IMHO, Seton Hall is nixed, Hofstra depends on scholarship stipulations and Rutgers is in. Just my thoughts.

EDIT - As one TLS poster put it, "I'm a current Rutgers-Newark student and one thing which TLS misses time and time again is that you make your own opportunities. Quite honestly, if you're not attending Columbia or NYU pick the local school where you got the most money from and attend. If you're not top 1/3 or above at Fordham your prospects are exactly the same as anyone at these other schools with the added bonus of high cost of living and tuition.

There are Rutgers graduates at most of NY biglaw firms. In almost all cases, they were at the very top of their class, law review and/or moot court etc. There are a few with "less stellar" credentials who managed to get in, but those are few and far between. There's a presence in NY mid-law as well, but I don't know how pervasive they are. Rutgers is very public interest focused. They routinely place students in most of the local DA's and public defender's offices, US Attorney's offices, etc. No one is going to hand you these jobs. You're going to have to work your butt off, send out hundreds of resumes, network, and be flexible with the results you get. The degree name is not going to open doors for you alone. Only Columbia and NYU do that and even now that's starting to change and those students are experiencing some slight trouble.

I've been here for 2 years and am satisfied that I attended. The expectations are high, getting high grades is very difficult, and there are administrative problems etc. The professors are all highly qualified, some care/some don't about their teaching. I interned with a NY appellate court judge first summer and got a connection through her for a firm job in NY. I know it wasn't a district or appellate court position, but it did the trick and there are a lot of Fordham, Cardozo, etc. students that were still looking for employment and some of them were on law review, moot court etc. I watched near 4.0 students get rejected from firm after firm because, although they can write one hell of an exam answer, either their arrogance or lack of inter-personal skills completely turned off the recruiter. It is what you make it."

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gwuorbust
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:16 pm

mrtoren wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:retake or don't go

This type of response has become a pandemic on these forums. The OP is not choosing between Cooley and Thomas Jefferson. All three of his schools are top 100 schools.



we can only hope that this response will become pandemic IRL as well.

Without scholarship money from Seton Hall or Rutgers, and with $20k from Hofstra, I would strongly consider Rutgers. I don't know what kind of stipulations are attached to your Hofstra money, but if you lose it, you're looking at $43,000/year in tuition plus living expenses. Seton Hall is even higher at $45,000/year. In fact, their predicted cost of attendance is $67,000/year! Rutgers is affordable ($24,000/year) and safer since you don't have the stress of maintaining certain grades to keep your scholarship. In the event you don't find a high paying law job, as some nay-sayers predict, you're not looking at unmanageable six-figure debt either. IMHO, Seton Hall is nixed, Hofstra depends on scholarship stipulations and Rutgers is in. Just my thoughts.


I mean, yes of the three Rutgers is the logical choice. But luckily we live in a world where there are more than three options. OP should retake and then go to a better school.

as for this "networking-is-the-key" stuff
EDIT - As one TLS poster put it, "I'm a current Rutgers-Newark student and one thing which TLS misses time and time again is that you make your own opportunities. Quite honestly, if you're not attending Columbia or NYU pick the local school where you got the most money from and attend. If you're not top 1/3 or above at Fordham your prospects are exactly the same as anyone at these other schools with the added bonus of high cost of living and tuition.

There are Rutgers graduates at most of NY biglaw firms. In almost all cases, they were at the very top of their class, law review and/or moot court etc. There are a few with "less stellar" credentials who managed to get in, but those are few and far between. There's a presence in NY mid-law as well, but I don't know how pervasive they are. Rutgers is very public interest focused. They routinely place students in most of the local DA's and public defender's offices, US Attorney's offices, etc. No one is going to hand you these jobs. You're going to have to work your butt off, send out hundreds of resumes, network, and be flexible with the results you get. The degree name is not going to open doors for you alone. Only Columbia and NYU do that and even now that's starting to change and those students are experiencing some slight trouble.

I've been here for 2 years and am satisfied that I attended. The expectations are high, getting high grades is very difficult, and there are administrative problems etc. The professors are all highly qualified, some care/some don't about their teaching. I interned with a NY appellate court judge first summer and got a connection through her for a firm job in NY. I know it wasn't a district or appellate court position, but it did the trick and there are a lot of Fordham, Cardozo, etc. students that were still looking for employment and some of them were on law review, moot court etc. I watched near 4.0 students get rejected from firm after firm because, although they can write one hell of an exam answer, either their arrogance or lack of inter-personal skills completely turned off the recruiter. It is what you make it.
"

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:01 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I was really leaning toward Rutgers, anyways. The way I see it, sure statistically speaking Seton Hall's numbers may suggest a remote advantage, but I don't think the difference between the schools is so substantial that a potential employer would, without close consideration, choose someone with a degree from Seton Hall over someone with similar achievements from Rutgers, unless it was their alma-mater. What I'm trying to convey is that it's not like the gap between these two schools is like it is between let's say Rutgers and Columbia. It's for that reason I can't justify paying twice as much in tuition to attend Seton Hall.

Anyways, anyone on here received a scholarship at either of these schools? Just curious how well you did compared to me. Further, anyone here going to be joining me as a 1L in the fall 2011? For the individual who was inquiring about my goals, I seek to work in constitutional law and civil liberties, maybe immigration or federal tax law - I have an interest in many fields.


@ GWBUST

Firstly, you don't even know what I scored on the LSAT, so why are you suggesting I retake? But you advice to me is that I can retake the LSAT and attempt to go to a better school. If I was one of those people that believe a school that's ranked 30th will exponentially increase my chances at landing a career compared to going to Rutgers, I'd consider your advice. But, I am not one of those delusional rank driven individuals. Unless, I end up doing so well on the LSAT that I score high enough to get me into a T14 school, I'd only be wasting my time re-studying and stressing over the LSAT and I'd end up paying twice as much in tuition going to a school like Fordham or Brooklyn, which don't even confer their graduates any sort of advantage over individuals with a degree from Rutgers - at least not in NJ. I did my research, before yapping your mouth you should consider doing the same. Thanks.
Last edited by sam_f on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:01 pm

sam_f wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I was really leaning toward Rutgers, anyways. The way I see it, sure statistically speaking Seton Hall's numbers may suggest a remote advantage, but I don't think the difference between the schools is so substantial that a potential employer would, without close consideration, choose someone with a degree from Seton Hall over someone with similar achievements from Rutgers, unless it was their alma-mater. What I'm trying to convey is that it's not like the gap between these two schools is like it is between let's say Rutgers and Columbia. It's for that reason I can't justify paying twice as much in tuition to attend Seton Hall.

Anyways, anyone on here received a scholarship at either of these schools? Just curious how well you did compared to me. Further, anyone here going to be joining me as a 1L in the fall 2011? For the individual who was inquiring about my goals, I seek to work in constitutional law and civil liberties, maybe immigration or federal tax law - I have an interest in many fields.


@ GWBUST

Firstly, you don't even know what I scored on the LSAT, so why are you suggesting I retake? But you advice to me is that I can retake the LSAT and attempt to go to a better school if I'm one of those people that believe a school that's ranked 30th will exponentially increase my chances at landing a career compared to going to Rutgers. But, I am not one of those delusional rank driven individuals. Unless, I end up doing so well on the LSAT that I score high enough to get me into a T14 school, I'd only be wasting my time re-studying and stressing over the LSAT and I'd end up paying twice as much in tuition going to a school like Fordham or Brooklyn, which don't even confer their graduates any sort of advantage over individuals with a degree from Rutgers - at least not in NJ. I did my research, before yapping your mouth you should consider doing the same. Thanks.


false dilemmas are false

what matters is not what you scored, but what you can score. and since the LSAT is a learnable test, you can probably improve your score. and based on the schools you got into, I can conclude that your LSAT wasn't that high(unless you are a massive splitter, like GPA of 2.5 range, which I doubt). simple logical deduction brah.

you do realize that there are these things called scholarships right? and that you could probably get one for a school ranked in the 30-40s with a higher LSAT score. I'm going to a school in that range and am paying less than you will be paying for Rutgers and I had a 163 LSAT w/ a 3.7 GPA. So yeah, I think I know what I'm talking about.

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dpk711
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby dpk711 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:06 pm

gwuorbust wrote:retake or don't go


trust me op, TITCR

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:11 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I was really leaning toward Rutgers, anyways. The way I see it, sure statistically speaking Seton Hall's numbers may suggest a remote advantage, but I don't think the difference between the schools is so substantial that a potential employer would, without close consideration, choose someone with a degree from Seton Hall over someone with similar achievements from Rutgers, unless it was their alma-mater. What I'm trying to convey is that it's not like the gap between these two schools is like it is between let's say Rutgers and Columbia. It's for that reason I can't justify paying twice as much in tuition to attend Seton Hall.

Anyways, anyone on here received a scholarship at either of these schools? Just curious how well you did compared to me. Further, anyone here going to be joining me as a 1L in the fall 2011? For the individual who was inquiring about my goals, I seek to work in constitutional law and civil liberties, maybe immigration or federal tax law - I have an interest in many fields.


@ GWBUST

Firstly, you don't even know what I scored on the LSAT, so why are you suggesting I retake? But you advice to me is that I can retake the LSAT and attempt to go to a better school if I'm one of those people that believe a school that's ranked 30th will exponentially increase my chances at landing a career compared to going to Rutgers. But, I am not one of those delusional rank driven individuals. Unless, I end up doing so well on the LSAT that I score high enough to get me into a T14 school, I'd only be wasting my time re-studying and stressing over the LSAT and I'd end up paying twice as much in tuition going to a school like Fordham or Brooklyn, which don't even confer their graduates any sort of advantage over individuals with a degree from Rutgers - at least not in NJ. I did my research, before yapping your mouth you should consider doing the same. Thanks.


false dilemmas are false

what matters is not what you scored, but what you can score. and since the LSAT is a learnable test, you can probably improve your score. and based on the schools you got into, I can conclude that your LSAT wasn't that high(unless you are a massive splitter, like GPA of 2.5 range, which I doubt). simple logical deduction brah.

you do realize that there are these things called scholarships right? and that you could probably get one for a school ranked in the 30-40s with a higher LSAT score. I'm going to a school in that range and am paying less than you will be paying for Rutgers and I had a 163 LSAT w/ a 3.7 GPA. So yeah, I think I know what I'm talking about.



Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN, the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you. In fact, I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has little or nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.
Last edited by sam_f on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrAnon
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:23 pm

We're now celebrating "top 100" schools as a major achievement? You may be impressed by this trifecta but employers generally are not. There are more grads from these schools looking for jobs than anyone can shake a stick at.

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:27 pm

MrAnon wrote:We're now celebrating "top 100" schools as a major achievement? You may be impressed by this trifecta but employers generally are not. There are more grads from these schools looking for jobs than anyone can shake a stick at.


I couldn't agree with you any more. The rankings mean very little in scope of the larger picture.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:29 pm

sam_f wrote:Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN - the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT, my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you, in fact I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.


Who is signing your PLUS Loan application ? It is you or your parents?

Because that extra 60k-100k in debt may not seem like a lot when thrown around the internet, but trust me those number are very, very real. it is not even really about the USNWR "ranking" of a school ranked in the 40s and a school ranked in the 80s. It is about how much you are going to pay AND your expected job prospects. If you are fine racking up a lot of debt for a lower ranked school with worse job prospects because you feel pressured from your parents go ahead, it doesn't effect me in the least. but realize that you don't need "t-14 numbers" to get a good scholarship. with a 165-6 LSAT, even for ppl with GPAs of say 3.2, you can get a between a 105-120k scholarship to Hofstra. proof.

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:37 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN - the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT, my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you, in fact I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.


Who is signing your PLUS Loan application ? It is you or your parents?

Because that extra 60k-100k in debt may not seem like a lot when thrown around the internet, but trust me those number are very, very real. it is not even really about the USNWR "ranking" of a school ranked in the 40s and a school ranked in the 80s. It is about how much you are going to pay AND your expected job prospects. If you are fine racking up a lot of debt for a lower ranked school with worse job prospects because you feel pressured from your parents go ahead, it doesn't effect me in the least. but realize that you don't need "t-14 numbers" to get a good scholarship. with a 165-6 LSAT, even for ppl with GPAs of say 3.2, you can get a between a 105-120k scholarship to Hofstra. proof.


I have very little desire to attend Hofstra, job prospects are very scarce coming out of that particular school. Look, I see the point you're trying to make. I just don't see it having much validity. I believe as long as you attend a reputable and respected school in the particular region you desire to practice, what's most important is that you distinguish yourself from your fellow classmates and hope that distinction will withstand competition coming from competitor schools. What I'm saying is that it's not all about where you attend, but more so about what you achieve where you attend. I do see your point in regards to the financial benefits of retaking the LSAT and scoring higher, but I was extremely stressed out during the months I was preparing for the LSAT. I had to quit my job to dedicate myself, and it's just an overall experience that I don't wish to revisit.

Take a look at this chart
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Notice how Howard University places significantly higher than Rutgers on this chart and even higher than Seton Hall. Howard is not even ranked in the top 100 according to the USNEWS. So, why do the top firms in NJ look to Howard when seeking prospective associates? Because they don't care remotely as much as you do about the rankings - if at all. What they care about is the reputation of the school and reputation is built primarily around the quality of education and caliber of individuals coming out from a school. Nonetheless, notice how Howard is so much higher on this list than Rutgers. According to your logic, that would be the better choice than, right? I mean after all it's higher up on the list. If you look closer you'll see that more individuals from Rutgers have been hired than those coming from howard (28v20). The point I'm trying to make now is that placement on an arbitrary chart tells you very little about the reality of the situation. You can't just take things at face value. All that matters to me is that top firms seek graduates from Rutgers to hire, meaning Rutgers does indeed have a solid reputation in the NJ area. All I'm worried about is being included of those 28. All else means very little to me.

MrAnon
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:56 pm

So your parents are pushing you to head off to Hofstra/Rutgers/Seton Hall without delay, huh? If you think the LSAT was stressful just wait til you are in law school. And be careful about being so hopeful that you'll end up 1 of 28. You must recognize that those 28 represent something like 15% of the class at Rutgers. That's 1 out of almost every 10 students.
Last edited by MrAnon on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:00 pm

sam_f wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN - the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT, my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you, in fact I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.


Who is signing your PLUS Loan application ? It is you or your parents?

Because that extra 60k-100k in debt may not seem like a lot when thrown around the internet, but trust me those number are very, very real. it is not even really about the USNWR "ranking" of a school ranked in the 40s and a school ranked in the 80s. It is about how much you are going to pay AND your expected job prospects. If you are fine racking up a lot of debt for a lower ranked school with worse job prospects because you feel pressured from your parents go ahead, it doesn't effect me in the least. but realize that you don't need "t-14 numbers" to get a good scholarship. with a 165-6 LSAT, even for ppl with GPAs of say 3.2, you can get a between a 105-120k scholarship to Hofstra. proof.


I have very little desire to attend Hofstra, job prospects are very scarce coming out of that particular school. Look, I see the point you're trying to make. I just don't see it having much validity. I believe as long as you attend a reputable and respected school in the particular region you desire to practice, what's most important is that you distinguish yourself from your fellow classmates and hope that distinction will withstand competition coming from competitor schools. What I'm saying is that it's not all about where you attend, but more so about what you do where you attend. I do see your point in regards to the financial benefits of retaking the LSAT and scoring higher, but I was extremely stressed out during the months I was preparing for the LSAT. I had to quit my job to dedicate myself, and it's just an overall experience that I don't wish to revisit.


honestly, you sound a lot like me per one year ago. I got a 163 twice and was like "fuck this, I got money to a 40th ranked school, I could probably do better, but I'll just dominate and everything will be good to go." problem is, while I worked as if not harder than almost anyone here, I'm only sitting at the 40th percentile. so much for being a special snowflake. I'm not fucked, but my changes of BigLaw are limited. so yeah, you must go right now then you probably want to go with Rutgers. but looking back, I wish I could reach back in time and strike some sense into myself..don't let that become you.

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:05 pm

MrAnon wrote:So your parents are pushing you to head off to Hofstra/Rutgers/Seton Hall without delay, huh? If you think the LSAT was stressful just wait til you are in law school. And be careful about being so hopeful that you'll end up 1 of 28. You must recognize that those 28 represent something like 15% of the class at Rutgers. That's 1 out of almost every 10 students.


There's a distinct difference between studying for law school and studying for the LSAT. If you're in law school, I shouldn't have to tell you this. I'm completely aware of the latter portion of your post. Again, no need to point this out to me. The only way to dramatically increase my chances of attaining a dream career straight out of law school would be to attend one of the schools that produce 100+ of their graduates into big law I.e Columbia, NYU, UPenn - I'm from the NJ area, this is why I keep referencing these 3. However, even if I did attend one of these, I think it would be a rational assumption to say that placing in the top 15% of these schools would be much more cut-throat than at Rutgers. The reward, of course, being that 150 of them will go to big law compared to the 28 from Rutgers. Still, I think my chances at Rutgers are actually better.
Last edited by sam_f on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:08 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
sam_f wrote:Again, unless I attend either Columbia, NYU or UPENN - the advantage in regards to employment after graduating from a school ranked in the 30-40s are negligible compared to Rutgers. I will concede that had I scored higher on the LSAT, my probability of a scholarship would likely have increased. But, if I do choose that route I would be delaying my attendance at law school for another year - an alternative that neither my parents nor I see acceptable.

I'm not here to debate with you, in fact I included a disclaimer in my original post aimed at potential responses such as yours. In any case, congratulations on your attendance at a law school ranked so high, according to a magazine that has nothing to do with the field of jurisprudence.


Who is signing your PLUS Loan application ? It is you or your parents?

Because that extra 60k-100k in debt may not seem like a lot when thrown around the internet, but trust me those number are very, very real. it is not even really about the USNWR "ranking" of a school ranked in the 40s and a school ranked in the 80s. It is about how much you are going to pay AND your expected job prospects. If you are fine racking up a lot of debt for a lower ranked school with worse job prospects because you feel pressured from your parents go ahead, it doesn't effect me in the least. but realize that you don't need "t-14 numbers" to get a good scholarship. with a 165-6 LSAT, even for ppl with GPAs of say 3.2, you can get a between a 105-120k scholarship to Hofstra. proof.


I have very little desire to attend Hofstra, job prospects are very scarce coming out of that particular school. Look, I see the point you're trying to make. I just don't see it having much validity. I believe as long as you attend a reputable and respected school in the particular region you desire to practice, what's most important is that you distinguish yourself from your fellow classmates and hope that distinction will withstand competition coming from competitor schools. What I'm saying is that it's not all about where you attend, but more so about what you do where you attend. I do see your point in regards to the financial benefits of retaking the LSAT and scoring higher, but I was extremely stressed out during the months I was preparing for the LSAT. I had to quit my job to dedicate myself, and it's just an overall experience that I don't wish to revisit.


honestly, you sound a lot like me per one year ago. I got a 163 twice and was like "fuck this, I got money to a 40th ranked school, I could probably do better, but I'll just dominate and everything will be good to go." problem is, while I worked as if not harder than almost anyone here, I'm only sitting at the 40th percentile. so much for being a special snowflake. I'm not fucked, but my changes of BigLaw are limited. so yeah, you must go right now then you probably want to go with Rutgers. but looking back, I wish I could reach back in time and strike some sense into myself..don't let that become you.



I know what you're saying. My girlfriend is a 3L and she's explained to me how 2 points on an exam can mean the difference between a B+ or a C. It sucks, I totally get it. Let me ask you this, when you say if you could reach back and strike some sens into yourself, what would you have done differently?

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mrtoren
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:14 pm

gwuorbust wrote:honestly, you sound a lot like me per one year ago. I got a 163 twice and was like "fuck this, I got money to a 40th ranked school, I could probably do better, but I'll just dominate and everything will be good to go." problem is, while I worked as if not harder than almost anyone here, I'm only sitting at the 40th percentile. so much for being a special snowflake. I'm not fucked, but my changes of BigLaw are limited. so yeah, you must go right now then you probably want to go with Rutgers. but looking back, I wish I could reach back in time and strike some sense into myself..don't let that become you.

Is that the reason youre pushing him so hard? Not everyone is interested in BigLaw. I can't speak for the OP's aspirations, but Rutgers is well known for its public interest law program. Beyond that, and contrary to your earlier statements, networking is vital. Networking is important to attaining many jobs in this economy. If the OP works hard at Rutgers and works even harder at their summer internships, doors can open. We like to think achievement and merit rule...but its usually who you know and how much they like you.
Last edited by mrtoren on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

get it to x
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby get it to x » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:15 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
mrtoren wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:retake or don't go

This type of response has become a pandemic on these forums. The OP is not choosing between Cooley and Thomas Jefferson. All three of his schools are top 100 schools.



we can only hope that this response will become pandemic IRL as well.

Without scholarship money from Seton Hall or Rutgers, and with $20k from Hofstra, I would strongly consider Rutgers. I don't know what kind of stipulations are attached to your Hofstra money, but if you lose it, you're looking at $43,000/year in tuition plus living expenses. Seton Hall is even higher at $45,000/year. In fact, their predicted cost of attendance is $67,000/year! Rutgers is affordable ($24,000/year) and safer since you don't have the stress of maintaining certain grades to keep your scholarship. In the event you don't find a high paying law job, as some nay-sayers predict, you're not looking at unmanageable six-figure debt either. IMHO, Seton Hall is nixed, Hofstra depends on scholarship stipulations and Rutgers is in. Just my thoughts.


I mean, yes of the three Rutgers is the logical choice. But luckily we live in a world where there are more than three options. OP should retake and then go to a better school.

as for this "networking-is-the-key" stuff
EDIT - As one TLS poster put it, "I'm a current Rutgers-Newark student and one thing which TLS misses time and time again is that you make your own opportunities. Quite honestly, if you're not attending Columbia or NYU pick the local school where you got the most money from and attend. If you're not top 1/3 or above at Fordham your prospects are exactly the same as anyone at these other schools with the added bonus of high cost of living and tuition.

There are Rutgers graduates at most of NY biglaw firms. In almost all cases, they were at the very top of their class, law review and/or moot court etc. There are a few with "less stellar" credentials who managed to get in, but those are few and far between. There's a presence in NY mid-law as well, but I don't know how pervasive they are. Rutgers is very public interest focused. They routinely place students in most of the local DA's and public defender's offices, US Attorney's offices, etc. No one is going to hand you these jobs. You're going to have to work your butt off, send out hundreds of resumes, network, and be flexible with the results you get. The degree name is not going to open doors for you alone. Only Columbia and NYU do that and even now that's starting to change and those students are experiencing some slight trouble.

I've been here for 2 years and am satisfied that I attended. The expectations are high, getting high grades is very difficult, and there are administrative problems etc. The professors are all highly qualified, some care/some don't about their teaching. I interned with a NY appellate court judge first summer and got a connection through her for a firm job in NY. I know it wasn't a district or appellate court position, but it did the trick and there are a lot of Fordham, Cardozo, etc. students that were still looking for employment and some of them were on law review, moot court etc. I watched near 4.0 students get rejected from firm after firm because, although they can write one hell of an exam answer, either their arrogance or lack of inter-personal skills completely turned off the recruiter. It is what you make it.
"



I wrote what you crossed out glibly and I, by no means, was trying to solely emphasize the "networking is key" approach to securing a summer/2L job. I meant that you shape your own law school experience. If you think that grades alone from a school in the NY area not named Columbia or NYU is going open doors alone for you...you are severely mistaken. Creating a well-balanced resume, and yes, networking all help to separate yourself from the rest of the crowd and, unfortunately, there are no guarantees that it might work. Being flexible and finding success and unforeseen advantages that present themselves in different opportunities that might have been outside of your original focus will help you make the most out of your law school experience.


Btw, OP I'm a current Rutgers student if that remains unclear. Feel free to ask any questions about the school. I'll try to give you as balanced an answer as I can.

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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:29 pm

@ X

What year are you in? Were you offered any scholarship? If so, how were your numbers like coming into the school? I mean I have a ton of questions, not really sure where to start. Honestly, how do you like it overall? Would you go somewhere else, given the chance? If so, where?

get it to x
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby get it to x » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:35 pm

2L. Small scholarship. High GPA, moderately ok LSAT (low 160's). I mean ideally I'd go to NYU or Columbia if I could have, but LSAT-wise it just was not in the cards for me. I'm content with Rutgers, the quality of my education is high (although no one on TLS really cares about the quality of their education, just what large firm or prestigious gov't job they'll apply hyper-early to and then wonder why it's been 48 hours and they haven't heard back yet), and I have a SA position that I'm looking forward to.

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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby Justathought » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:45 pm

get it to x wrote:2L. Small scholarship. High GPA, moderately ok LSAT (low 160's). I mean ideally I'd go to NYU or Columbia if I could have, but LSAT-wise it just was not in the cards for me. I'm content with Rutgers, the quality of my education is high (although no one on TLS really cares about the quality of their education, just what large firm or prestigious gov't job they'll apply hyper-early to and then wonder why it's been 48 hours and they haven't heard back yet), and I have a SA position that I'm looking forward to.


Hey X,

I stalk Rutgers threads, as you know. Since you're taking questions, I have a few quality of life ones to ask.

How's the social environment at school? Since it seems like such a commuter school (maybe I'm wrong there), do students tend to socialize outside of class?

We've spoken about Rutgers public interest focus, but are there legitimate networking opportunities with firms?

How's the general campus atmosphere? Would you describe it as a vibrant, i.e. crowded, lots of things to see and do? Every time I seem to visit its largely deserted, but this is probably due to heavy rain and/or it being a weekend - in my case.

Thanks!
Last edited by Justathought on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ChiCity22
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby ChiCity22 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:47 pm

Get it to x - I'm a prospective Rutgers student, and wanted to throw a question by you while I was on this thread.

Being from out of state I was wondering how prevalent are students that are from the area with roots there, and if you know any out of state students how easy has it been for them to get acclimated to the school / area / job search?

sam_f
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Re: Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall

Postby sam_f » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:48 pm

get it to x wrote:2L. Small scholarship. High GPA, moderately ok LSAT (low 160's). I mean ideally I'd go to NYU or Columbia if I could have, but LSAT-wise it just was not in the cards for me. I'm content with Rutgers, the quality of my education is high (although no one on TLS really cares about the quality of their education, just what large firm or prestigious gov't job they'll apply hyper-early to and then wonder why it's been 48 hours and they haven't heard back yet), and I have a SA position that I'm looking forward to.



Nice. In terms of your peers, I know the class is very diverse in regard to ethnicity, what is your take on everyone? Easy to socialize and so on? I mean one of the main reasons I was put off by Seton Hall was the fact it seems like everyone there is one in the same, if you meet one person you could probably bet the next guy comes from a very similar demographic, has very similar views, and so on. You know what I'm trying to say? Also, what is your take on the professors?

EDIT: just noticed this thread is heading towards the direction I initially hoped. Welcome prospective/future Rutgers 1L's. :)




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