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camelcrema
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Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:08 pm

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Last edited by camelcrema on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:44 pm

So now every school has at least one vote. Not that surprised, but I'd appreciate it if you guys could summarize the logic behind the vote. :oops:

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kwais
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby kwais » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:46 pm

I voted for CLS for very scientific reasons. I am likely to choose CLS over UCLA$$ and might like to live in Cali long term, so anytime I can talk someone else into it, I feel better. See? Science.

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FuManChusco
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby FuManChusco » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:48 pm

ummm, if you wanted LA I'd say UCLA, but you want NorCal so I'm going with CLS.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby bhan87 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:48 pm

kwais wrote:I voted for CLS for very scientific reasons. I am likely to choose CLS over UCLA$$ and might like to live in Cali long term, so anytime I can talk someone else into it, I feel better. See? Science.


+1

Similar situation, similar motive on voting CLS.

Also, I'm a huge prestige whore.

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Knock
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby Knock » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:51 pm

Of those options, i'd take CLS. Did you get into Chicago though? They seem to place well in California.

This thread may be useful to you: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150843. Although I think a lot of the differences isn't due to differences in placement power but due to student regional preferences.

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kwais
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby kwais » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:51 pm

FuManChusco wrote:ummm, if you wanted LA I'd say UCLA, but you want NorCal so I'm going with CLS.

This too. I'd rather be a CLS student looking in SF than a UCLA student

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:01 pm

Knock wrote:Of those options, i'd take CLS. Did you get into Chicago though? They seem to place well in California.

This thread may be useful to you: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150843. Although I think a lot of the differences isn't due to differences in placement power but due to student regional preferences.



WL'd at Chicago. Do they really place better than CLS in California, or is it a matter of the amount of students bidding against the home market?

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Knock
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby Knock » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:03 pm

camelcrema wrote:
Knock wrote:Of those options, i'd take CLS. Did you get into Chicago though? They seem to place well in California.

This thread may be useful to you: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150843. Although I think a lot of the differences isn't due to differences in placement power but due to student regional preferences.



WL'd at Chicago. Do they really place better than CLS in California, or is it a matter of the amount of students bidding against the home market?


Not sure, i'd guess it's more people's regional preferences.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby dabbadon8 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:03 pm

I don't know why people aren't suggesting mich. 74k cheaper is a big chunk of change (especially with interest) plus the have pretty nice CA placement. It seems like a happy medium. If your just looking for pure employment prospects at any cost then take Columbia but I think that with the 74k cost difference personal preference/fit should come into play.

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:08 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:I don't know why people aren't suggesting mich. 74k cheaper is a big chunk of change (especially with interest) plus the have pretty nice CA placement. It seems like a happy medium. If your just looking for pure employment prospects at any cost then take Columbia but I think that with the 74k cost difference personal preference/fit should come into play.


That has been weighing pretty heavily on my mind recently. Michigan is 74k cheaper COA, and UCLA would be 100k cheaper COA than CLS. Both of those seem like pretty hefty figures, like they could be the difference between renting a studio vs. putting a down payment on a house. But then again, can't do either without a jerb.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby dabbadon8 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:19 pm

camelcrema wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:I don't know why people aren't suggesting mich. 74k cheaper is a big chunk of change (especially with interest) plus the have pretty nice CA placement. It seems like a happy medium. If your just looking for pure employment prospects at any cost then take Columbia but I think that with the 74k cost difference personal preference/fit should come into play.


That has been weighing pretty heavily on my mind recently. Michigan is 74k cheaper COA, and UCLA would be 100k cheaper COA than CLS. Both of those seem like pretty hefty figures, like they could be the difference between renting a studio vs. putting a down payment on a house. But then again, can't do either without a jerb.


It is a calculated gamble, essentially you would be paying 74k or 100k for the differences in job prospects whatever those are. One thing to keep in mind is that 74k is going to be more than that by the time you graduate and a good bit more over the life of the loan.

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:21 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:
It is a calculated gamble, essentially you would be paying 74k or 100k for the differences in job prospects whatever those are. One thing to keep in mind is that 74k is going to be more than that by the time you graduate and a good bit more over the life of the loan.



So I guess the question is, how does one calculate in tangible terms the differences in job prospects between these three schools in NorCal?

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kwais
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby kwais » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:27 pm

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:29 pm

kwais wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?



I like how you think. The aforementioned "scientific reasons" have merit.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby dooood » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:30 pm

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Last edited by dooood on Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kwais
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby kwais » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:31 pm

camelcrema wrote:
kwais wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?



I like how you think. The aforementioned "scientific reasons" have merit.


Thanks, and thanks for giving me a chance to try out the (fragile) reasoning that consumes my day!

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ahduth
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby ahduth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:34 pm

Michigan's a top 10 school though. I think Michigan is your best bet if you're debt averse (which you sound like you are). That being said, living in LA is a lot different than Ann Arbor.

I am looking at something vaguely similar (non-CA resident, but they gave me 132k in scholarship money versus sticker at NYU/CLS), but I'm not certain at all that I'd want to work in Cali, and Michigan YP/WL'd me. I'm probably ending up in New York just by default.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby perspective » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:38 pm

Ashduth- You received 132k in scholarship money? Wowza!

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:40 pm

kwais wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?


lol you're joking with this line of logic right?

that being said, i think UCLA may be the wrong answer here (even more surprised it'd cost you that much still...if not NorCal, id say negotiate for better scholarship $$)...CLS vs. Mich +$$ is the real question...general stats of how many CLS vs. Mich students place in Cali (or even NorCal) seems to be an easy way to know which is better...i dont see too much of a reason for selection-bias being greater at one school over another per se (relatively speaking)...

if Mich is just a little behind CLS, then i vote for the $74K Mich. if the gap is kinda large, go CLS :P

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby dooood » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:41 pm

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camelcrema
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby camelcrema » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:43 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
kwais wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?


lol you're joking with this line of logic right?

that being said, i think UCLA may be the wrong answer here (even more surprised it'd cost you that much still...if not NorCal, id say negotiate for better scholarship $$)...CLS vs. Mich +$$ is the real question...general stats of how many CLS vs. Mich students place in Cali (or even NorCal) seems to be an easy way to know which is better...i dont see too much of a reason for selection-bias being greater at one school over another per se (relatively speaking)...

if Mich is just a little behind CLS, then i vote for the $74K Mich. if the gap is kinda large, go CLS :P


They're pretty close, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to self-selection. Michigan doesn't really have a home market to place into, so they're going to be more widely spread out than a school that can attach itself squarely to a NY home market. I should probably mention that my estimates take into account the differences in cost of living. The actual schollies at these schools are 54k at michigan and 69k at UCLA. I searched CLS vs. Mich +$$ on the forums, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer unless it's sticker vs. Darrow, which unfortunately it is not . :?

dabbadon8
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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby dabbadon8 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:46 pm

camelcrema wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
kwais wrote:I'm not necessarily disagreeing with those who are debt averse, but, let's say the 74k turns into 100k with interest. In a 20 year career, are you really saying that you wouldn't pay 5k a year to give yourself a better shot at the career you want? This seems incredibly foolish. Not to say that job options aren't awesome out of Mich. But how much do you expect to make over your career? 1mil, 2mil? Is 74k really a dealbreaker?


lol you're joking with this line of logic right?

that being said, i think UCLA may be the wrong answer here (even more surprised it'd cost you that much still...if not NorCal, id say negotiate for better scholarship $$)...CLS vs. Mich +$$ is the real question...general stats of how many CLS vs. Mich students place in Cali (or even NorCal) seems to be an easy way to know which is better...i dont see too much of a reason for selection-bias being greater at one school over another per se (relatively speaking)...

if Mich is just a little behind CLS, then i vote for the $74K Mich. if the gap is kinda large, go CLS :P


They're pretty close, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to self-selection. Michigan doesn't really have a home market to place into, so they're going to be more widely spread out than a school that can attach itself squarely to a NY home market. I should probably mention that my estimates take into account the differences in cost of living. The actual schollies at these schools are 54k at michigan and 69k at UCLA. I searched CLS vs. Mich +$$ on the forums, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer unless it's sticker vs. Darrow, which unfortunately it is not . :?


I think in your case I would visit and make my mind up based on personal fit. The three years of your life you'd be spending in the place is not negligible. I think the 74k would be enough to mitigate any increased job prospects so you could compare the schools on equal grounds.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:48 pm

No wrong answer, but it reads as if you would be happiest at UCLA. Plus, it's never too early to start building professional relationships in your target market of California.

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Re: Choosing a School for California? (CLS v. Mich v. UCLA)

Postby tallboone » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:56 pm

The fact that you want to do N. Cal. seals the deal for Columbia or Michigan. If you wanted to be in LA, UCLA could make a stronger argument. But the Bay Area market is already flooded (Stanford, Boalt, Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, etc. all place better in N. Cal. than UCLA).

I understand wanting to do biglaw to pay down debt. But if you really have a calling to be a prosecutor or to do other public interest work, Columbia and Michigan have great LRAP programs (MUCH better than UCLA). If you found that you did well enough at Columbia or Michigan and could get an Art. III clerkship or a DOJ Honors position, it would be silly to pass those up to do biglaw for a few years just to pay down debt. Both Columbia and Michigan have good enough LRAPs to justify taking the less lucrative job that you love.




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