UVA v NYU

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

WHERE?! (please read first!)

UVA with $90K
10
13%
NYU with full ride
67
87%
 
Total votes: 77

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fatduck
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby fatduck » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:06 pm

Curry wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:Uh.. Its also one of the best schools in the country for PI, places better everywhere except maybe DC, has a better reputation, considerably better LRAP program, has better professors, more interdisciplinary options, and is just all around a better school :/


Did you pull this from their brochure? PI employers aren't digging deeper into NYU's class than they are UVA's. It doesn't have a better reputation (in fact it has had a lower lawyer/judge score assessment score in US News than UVA for several years), it doesn't place better anywhere except NYC, and the professor thing is totally subjective and means nothing to a student applying for jobs. That's only relevant to things like attracting wide eyed interested applicants.

lol so the basis for your argument is a lawyer/judge score assessment that has a 12% response rate and anecdotal evidence about PI, while ignoring LRAP, ignoring the fact that NYU is considered by pretty much everyone as the best PI school in the country outside of HYS, and the fact that it has much more of a national reach than UVA given its huge PI network.

to be fair you're ignoring the fact that he goes to uva

005618502
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby 005618502 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:06 pm

Curry wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:Uh.. Its also one of the best schools in the country for PI, places better everywhere except maybe DC, has a better reputation, considerably better LRAP program, has better professors, more interdisciplinary options, and is just all around a better school :/


Did you pull this from their brochure? PI employers aren't digging deeper into NYU's class than they are UVA's. It doesn't have a better reputation (in fact it has had a lower lawyer/judge score assessment score in US News than UVA for several years), it doesn't place better anywhere except NYC, and the professor thing is totally subjective and means nothing to a student applying for jobs. That's only relevant to things like attracting wide eyed interested applicants.

lol so the basis for your argument is a lawyer/judge score assessment that has a 12% response rate and anecdotal evidence about PI, while ignoring LRAP, ignoring the fact that NYU is considered by pretty much everyone as the best PI school in the country outside of HYS, and the fact that it has much more of a national reach than UVA given its huge PI network.


12% where did you get that?

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arism87
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby arism87 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:10 pm

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Last edited by arism87 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Knock
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby Knock » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:11 pm

arism87 wrote:About following the money- I am assuming in this case that I DO get a full ride at NYU (not because I assume I'll get it, but because if I don't I already know I'll go to UVA)


Definitely NYU then. You should consider leverage UVA for more money though if you do prefer them and get the full ride at NYU.

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sundance95
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby sundance95 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:14 pm

arism87 wrote:About following the money- I am assuming in this case that I DO get a full ride at NYU (not because I assume I'll get it, but because if I don't I already know I'll go to UVA)

If you got the scholly, you'd have a hard time convincing me that it would make any sense, at least in terms of career/future finances, to go to UVA. And, FWIW, I ED'ed to UVA, and applied nowhere else. Other considerations, such as a distaste for cities, you'll have to weigh on your own.
Last edited by sundance95 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

616rewind
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby 616rewind » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:14 pm

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Last edited by 616rewind on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:14 pm

Curry wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:Uh.. Its also one of the best schools in the country for PI, places better everywhere except maybe DC, has a better reputation, considerably better LRAP program, has better professors, more interdisciplinary options, and is just all around a better school :/


Did you pull this from their brochure? PI employers aren't digging deeper into NYU's class than they are UVA's. It doesn't have a better reputation (in fact it has had a lower lawyer/judge score assessment score in US News than UVA for several years), it doesn't place better anywhere except NYC, and the professor thing is totally subjective and means nothing to a student applying for jobs. That's only relevant to things like attracting wide eyed interested applicants.

lol so the basis for your argument is a lawyer/judge score assessment that has a 12% response rate and anecdotal evidence about PI, while ignoring LRAP, ignoring the fact that NYU is considered by pretty much everyone as the best PI school in the country outside of HYS, and the fact that it has much more of a national reach than UVA given its huge PI network.


Lol either you don't know what basis means or you are bad at determining the main point of an argument. The lawyer/judge assessment score comment was clearly an attack at one point that you made--not the main point of my argument. My main point is that NYU' and UVA are considered peer schools by those outside of NYC and that PI employers aren't going to dig deeper into NYU's class. That's what really matters when you are talking about a school being "better" than another. Anything else is essentially 0L bullshit.

Second, it's ironic that you're attacking the basis of my argument as being weak (even though you didn't manage to figure out what the main point was) when your argument literally has no basis, as evidenced by you not quoting any sort of facts but just regurgitating what you've heard on TLS and NYU's 2011 viewbook.

I'm also gathering that you don't know what anecotal means. I didn't mention any specific personal involvement with PI placement. I'm talking in general. In general PI cares about grades and commitment to PI (and not even grades depending on type of PI) they do care about schools, but more in the sense of HYS v. the rest of the top 14 and the top 14 vs. non top 14. That's about it outside of regional biases. For example DOJ (one of the most desired PI orgs in the nation) will assuredly not care which of NYU or UVA an applicant attends. They will care what that applicant's GPA is. In short you really don't know what you're talking about. NYU's strength over the top 14 schools ranked below it is in regards to NYC firm placement, nothing else.

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glewz
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby glewz » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:19 pm

Resolved:

If full ride at NYU, then go to NYU.

If love UVA >>> NYU, then ask for $$$ match. If no $$$ match at UVA, then go to NYU.

dukey
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby dukey » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:Uh.. Its also one of the best schools in the country for PI, places better everywhere except maybe DC, has a better reputation, considerably better LRAP program, has better professors, more interdisciplinary options, and is just all around a better school :/


Did you pull this from their brochure? PI employers aren't digging deeper into NYU's class than they are UVA's. It doesn't have a better reputation (in fact it has had a lower lawyer/judge score assessment score in US News than UVA for several years), it doesn't place better anywhere except NYC, and the professor thing is totally subjective and means nothing to a student applying for jobs. That's only relevant to things like attracting wide eyed interested applicants.

lol so the basis for your argument is a lawyer/judge score assessment that has a 12% response rate and anecdotal evidence about PI, while ignoring LRAP, ignoring the fact that NYU is considered by pretty much everyone as the best PI school in the country outside of HYS, and the fact that it has much more of a national reach than UVA given its huge PI network.


Lol either you don't know what basis means or you are bad at determining the main point of an argument. The lawyer/judge assessment score comment was clearly an attack at one point that you made--not the main point of my argument. My main point is that NYU' and UVA are considered peer schools by those outside of NYC and that PI employers aren't going to dig deeper into NYU's class. That's what really matters when you are talking about a school being "better" than another. Anything else is essentially 0L bullshit.

Second, it's ironic that you're attacking the basis of my argument as being weak (even though you didn't manage to figure out what the main point was) when your argument literally has no basis, as evidenced by you not quoting any sort of facts but just regurgitating what you've heard on TLS and NYU's 2011 viewbook.

I'm also gathering that you don't know what anecotal means. I didn't mention any specific personal involvement with PI placement. I'm talking in general. In general PI cares about grades and commitment to PI (and not even grades depending on type of PI) they do care about schools, but more in the sense of HYS v. the rest of the top 14 and the top 14 vs. non top 14. That's about it outside of regional biases. For example DOJ (one of the most desired PI orgs in the nation) will assuredly not care which of NYU or UVA an applicant attends. They will care what that applicant's GPA is. In short you really don't know what you're talking about. NYU's strength over the top 14 schools ranked below it is in regards to NYC firm placement, nothing else.


NYU is better than UVA for west coast PI, and NYU as good, if not better (probably better) for nearly all other locations.

If OP's intent is to pursue PI, she would be foolish not to choose NYU over UVA.

Curry

Re: UVA v NYU

Postby Curry » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:24 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Curry wrote:Uh.. Its also one of the best schools in the country for PI, places better everywhere except maybe DC, has a better reputation, considerably better LRAP program, has better professors, more interdisciplinary options, and is just all around a better school :/


Did you pull this from their brochure? PI employers aren't digging deeper into NYU's class than they are UVA's. It doesn't have a better reputation (in fact it has had a lower lawyer/judge score assessment score in US News than UVA for several years), it doesn't place better anywhere except NYC, and the professor thing is totally subjective and means nothing to a student applying for jobs. That's only relevant to things like attracting wide eyed interested applicants.

lol so the basis for your argument is a lawyer/judge score assessment that has a 12% response rate and anecdotal evidence about PI, while ignoring LRAP, ignoring the fact that NYU is considered by pretty much everyone as the best PI school in the country outside of HYS, and the fact that it has much more of a national reach than UVA given its huge PI network.


Lol either you don't know what basis means or you are bad at determining the main point of an argument. The lawyer/judge assessment score comment was clearly an attack at one point that you made--not the main point of my argument. My main point is that NYU' and UVA are considered peer schools by those outside of NYC and that PI employers aren't going to dig deeper into NYU's class. That's what really matters when you are talking about a school being "better" than another. Anything else is essentially 0L bullshit.

Second, it's ironic that you're attacking the basis of my argument as being weak (even though you didn't manage to figure out what the main point was) when your argument literally has no basis, as evidenced by you not quoting any sort of facts but just regurgitating what you've heard on TLS and NYU's 2011 viewbook.

I'm also gathering that you don't know what anecotal means. I didn't mention any specific personal involvement with PI placement. I'm talking in general. In general PI cares about grades and commitment to PI (and not even grades depending on type of PI) they do care about schools, but more in the sense of HYS v. the rest of the top 14 and the top 14 vs. non top 14. That's about it outside of regional biases. For example DOJ (one of the most desired PI orgs in the nation) will assuredly not care which of NYU or UVA an applicant attends. They will care what that applicant's GPA is. In short you really don't know what you're talking about. NYU's strength over the top 14 schools ranked below it is in regards to NYC firm placement, nothing else.

Well, you've provided no evidence outside of bullshit from USNWR (which is ironic cause thats what you said I was relying on), didn't rebut the LRAP point, still haven't remotely discussed how anything from UVA is better than NYU except said their equal in hiring which just isn't true given NYU's PI placement, oh and you go to Virginia so your answers must not be biased at all. You can call me an ignorant 0L spewing what I've heard on TLS but there's a reason why almost everyone who gets the option between those two schools at the same price takes NYU for PI; hell people take NYU over columbia for PI and you've provided literally zero evidence to counter that rationale. Anyways I'm done arguing with you because literally nothing anyone says will change your mind.

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arism87
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby arism87 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:38 pm

Thanks, everyone!! Will certainly consider all of this :)

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:41 pm

Curry wrote:Well, you've provided no evidence outside of bullshit from USNWR (which is ironic cause thats what you said I was relying on), didn't rebut the LRAP point, still haven't remotely discussed how anything from UVA is better than NYU except said their equal in hiring which just isn't true given NYU's PI placement, oh and you go to Virginia so your answers must not be biased at all. You can call me an ignorant 0L spewing what I've heard on TLS but there's a reason why almost everyone who gets the option between those two schools at the same price takes NYU for PI; hell people take NYU over columbia for PI and you've provided literally zero evidence to counter that rationale. Anyways I'm done arguing with you because literally nothing anyone says will change your mind.


First I never said that UVA was better than NYU; this entire conversation is going far above your head. The point was that for PI positions it will not matter whether one attends NYU or UVA. And it's glaringly obvious that you are an 0L by your comments."Just isn't true given NYU's PI placement"? Are you serious? What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that because NYU may place 8 percent of its class into PI that it's "better" than the 5 percent UVA might place? Are you serious? Do you realize how bad that sort of logic is?

The only way to compare "PI placement" would be to see what sort of PI positions both schools send their graduates to. This is actually somewhat possible because UVA keeps track of this on their Career services website/viewbook and I believe that NYU does the same. Do you know what this shows you? It shows you that both schools send people to the same great PI places. DOJ, the Hague, DA's offices, Skadden fellowships, SEC, ACLU, JAG, NAACP etc. there's no meaningful difference.

Your argument about people taking NYU over CLS is even more misguided. People do this because 1. they may like NYU better personally and 2. Because of the institutional support for PI at NYU. You are confusing institutional support with ability to place into PI positions. The reality is that for PI it doesn't matter whether you go to GULC or NYU let alone UVA or NYU as far as PI employers willingness to look at you. Now as far as the institution's dedication to PI that's another matter, but that has no bearing on whether the PI employer will hire you. It may make it a bit easier to network and attend job fairs etc. But even then if you're looking at a non NYC PI employer that advantage of NYU shrinks.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how PI hiring works. They want people with good grades who are dedicated to serving the public interest. Yes they care about school, but really only to the extent that they really like HYS and they prefer top 14 over other schools (within reason. They don't want a Chicago kid with bad grades who never did any PI stuff while in law school over a kid at Vandy with a 3.7 who spent all of their summers working at a DA's office and the local legal aid society). I hate to pull the 0L card but this is just one situation where it fits all too well. You read the NYU viewbook, go excited about its "high" pi "placement", (which is really just the 6 or 7 percent of the class who chose to do PI) heard some people on TLS say that "NYU is great for PI" and then suddenly came to the "conclusion" that that meant that NYU places "better" into PI, when you don't even realize that better would mean that they routinely accept worse grades from NYU than UVA. In short you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:13 pm

BruceWayne wrote:First I never said that UVA was better than NYU; this entire conversation is going far above your head. The point was that for PI positions it will not matter whether one attends NYU or UVA. And it's glaringly obvious that you are an 0L by your comments."Just isn't true given NYU's PI placement"? Are you serious? What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that because NYU may place 8 percent of its class into PI that it's "better" than the 5 percent UVA might place? Are you serious? Do you realize how bad that sort of logic is?

The only way to compare "PI placement" would be to see what sort of PI positions both schools send their graduates to. This is actually somewhat possible because UVA keeps track of this on their Career services website/viewbook and I believe that NYU does the same. Do you know what this shows you? It shows you that both schools send people to the same great PI places. DOJ, the Hague, DA's offices, Skadden fellowships, SEC, ACLU, JAG, NAACP etc. there's no meaningful difference.

Your argument about people taking NYU over CLS is even more misguided. People do this because 1. they may like NYU better personally and 2. Because of the institutional support for PI at NYU. You are confusing institutional support with ability to place into PI positions. The reality is that for PI it doesn't matter whether you go to GULC or NYU let alone UVA or NYU as far as PI employers willingness to look at you. Now as far as the institution's dedication to PI that's another matter, but that has no bearing on whether the PI employer will hire you. It may make it a bit easier to network and attend job fairs etc. But even then if you're looking at a non NYC PI employer that advantage of NYU shrinks.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how PI hiring works. They want people with good grades who are dedicated to serving the public interest. Yes they care about school, but really only to the extent that they really like HYS and they prefer top 14 over other schools (within reason. They don't want a Chicago kid with bad grades who never did any PI stuff while in law school over a kid at Vandy with a 3.7 who spent all of their summers working at a DA's office and the local legal aid society). I hate to pull the 0L card but this is just one situation where it fits all too well. You read the NYU viewbook, go excited about its "high" pi "placement", (which is really just the 6 or 7 percent of the class who chose to do PI) heard some people on TLS say that "NYU is great for PI" and then suddenly came to the "conclusion" that that meant that NYU places "better" into PI, when you don't even realize that better would mean that they routinely accept worse grades from NYU than UVA. In short you have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you have a gadget in the Batcave that tells you all this? You seem to be responding to unfounded-conventional-wisdom with unfounded-your-opinion. In lieu of anything but your own personal assertions I don't see why anyone would disregard the common belief that NYU is actually an especially superb place to go for public interest work. Being in a supportive place with like-minded people and an administration that knows how to get you where you need to be is not nothing for public interest. Can you do it from UVA? Sure. Should OP go to UVA? If s/he hates NYC, never wants to work there, and isn't sure about doing public interest, then probably yes. But you seem to have a weird anti-NYU chip on your shoulder about this stuff, when it's actually I think what NYU does often and does well.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:42 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:First I never said that UVA was better than NYU; this entire conversation is going far above your head. The point was that for PI positions it will not matter whether one attends NYU or UVA. And it's glaringly obvious that you are an 0L by your comments."Just isn't true given NYU's PI placement"? Are you serious? What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that because NYU may place 8 percent of its class into PI that it's "better" than the 5 percent UVA might place? Are you serious? Do you realize how bad that sort of logic is?

The only way to compare "PI placement" would be to see what sort of PI positions both schools send their graduates to. This is actually somewhat possible because UVA keeps track of this on their Career services website/viewbook and I believe that NYU does the same. Do you know what this shows you? It shows you that both schools send people to the same great PI places. DOJ, the Hague, DA's offices, Skadden fellowships, SEC, ACLU, JAG, NAACP etc. there's no meaningful difference.

Your argument about people taking NYU over CLS is even more misguided. People do this because 1. they may like NYU better personally and 2. Because of the institutional support for PI at NYU. You are confusing institutional support with ability to place into PI positions. The reality is that for PI it doesn't matter whether you go to GULC or NYU let alone UVA or NYU as far as PI employers willingness to look at you. Now as far as the institution's dedication to PI that's another matter, but that has no bearing on whether the PI employer will hire you. It may make it a bit easier to network and attend job fairs etc. But even then if you're looking at a non NYC PI employer that advantage of NYU shrinks.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how PI hiring works. They want people with good grades who are dedicated to serving the public interest. Yes they care about school, but really only to the extent that they really like HYS and they prefer top 14 over other schools (within reason. They don't want a Chicago kid with bad grades who never did any PI stuff while in law school over a kid at Vandy with a 3.7 who spent all of their summers working at a DA's office and the local legal aid society). I hate to pull the 0L card but this is just one situation where it fits all too well. You read the NYU viewbook, go excited about its "high" pi "placement", (which is really just the 6 or 7 percent of the class who chose to do PI) heard some people on TLS say that "NYU is great for PI" and then suddenly came to the "conclusion" that that meant that NYU places "better" into PI, when you don't even realize that better would mean that they routinely accept worse grades from NYU than UVA. In short you have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you have a gadget in the Batcave that tells you all this? You seem to be responding to unfounded-conventional-wisdom with unfounded-your-opinion. In lieu of anything but your own personal assertions I don't see why anyone would disregard the common belief that NYU is actually an especially superb place to go for public interest work. Being in a supportive place with like-minded people and an administration that knows how to get you where you need to be is not nothing for public interest. Can you do it from UVA? Sure. Should OP go to UVA? If s/he hates NYC, never wants to work there, and isn't sure about doing public interest, then probably yes. But you seem to have a weird anti-NYU chip on your shoulder about this stuff, when it's actually I think what NYU does often and does well.


My goodness you just don't get it. I guess this is one of those things that you just can't understand if you aren't in law school/involved with this sort of thing.

The common belief that NYU is "better" than "insert any school in the top 14" for PI is based on the school's PR efforts. It's akin to the idea of "International Law" that schools use to rope in 0L's. Worse yet, if you're talking about the "common belief" that NYU is better for PI you're really just talking about TLS. The other problem is that Public interest is much too broad of a field to just make a blanket statement like one school is better than another. PI includes DOJ, ACLU, working as an ADA, working at a legal aid society etc. That you and the 0L who previously posted think that this can all be grouped into one and that one school can be said to be "better" at placing into fields this varied is telling. It's a red flag that you aren't familiar with the subject that you're talking about. Even the like minded supportive interest thing is way off. People who want to work in DOJ Civil are not "like minded" with those who want to work in a legal aid society. The two fields are like night and day but are both grouped into PI.

And yet you 2 seem to think that one school places "better" than a variety of others. The other thing that makes what you're saying pretty ridiculous ( and what most people in law school already know) is that NONE of these top schools sends that many people into PI. NYU may send about 10 percent of their graduating class into PI same with UVA. For someone to think that a difference that small is meaningful is shortsighted. Differences/increments that small have more to do with the interests of the student body.

In addition, as 0L's you have not come into contact with people from these fields that often. I'll tell you point blank that I've heard the DOJ (one of the most desired PI employers in the country) come out and say that they have a preference for HYS and that beyond that it's grades, grades, and commitment to PI. As far as a "gadget" that tells me this I actually do have one that you 2 as 0L's do not. It's called Public career services, alumni networks, upper classmen heading to PI/who have already worked in PI positions, and actually talking to people at the DOJ and other PI orgs, not to mention having a PI summer position lined up. While that gadget isn't perfect it's much better than the NYU viewbook and top law school hearsay that you are relying on.

Finally what you both are continually missing, and I can tell that you don't understand what I'm talking about, is that being "better" means that PI employers are willing to hire deeper into the class at one school vs. the other. You are not going to get that for going to NYU vs. going to UVA. Hell depending on the PI employer you might not even get it from going to HYS considering that PI looks at a lot more than just GPA. But again that's a sign of not being familiar with legal hiring/legal employment that as 0L's I can readily tell that you are not. The thing is that you 2 shouldn't be giving the OP advice on a subject which you are not familiar with. It's dangerous and disingenuous and obvious when you make some of the comments that have been made.

If the OP wants to work in PI she should know that it's basically 1. HYS 2. Top 14 3. Everywhere else and just as important if not more her grades that she gets while she's there and her commitment to PI + willingness to hustle and look for positions.

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birdlaw117
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:12 am

BruceWayne wrote:As far as a "gadget" that tells me this I actually do have one that you 2 as 0L's do not. It's called Public career services, alumni networks, upper classmen heading to PI/who have already worked in PI positions, and actually talking to people at the DOJ and other PI orgs, not to mention having a PI summer position lined up. While that gadget isn't perfect it's much better than the NYU viewbook and top law school hearsay that you are relying on.


Umm... Isn't citing what other people say (such as UVa career services) hearsay? Do you get good grades?

Pretty much everyone agrees that networking is really important for PI. You also mentioned that NYU cares more about their PI (you called it institutional support) and is able to facilitate that better (changed your words, same idea). You can't say these two things without admitting that it could be easier to make those connections at NYU (particularly because of their large PI network).

Also, you're saying random statistics like "8 percent of its class into PI" and then changing it to "10 percent of its class into PI." You clearly are just throwing around numbers that aren't true and just making shit up. If you don't want people to be disingenuous, maybe you shouldn't throw out baseless "facts."

Finally, OP shouldn't go to NYU if she doesn't like the big city, period. You'll do better where you're happier in all likelihood. That difference might actually make a difference, as opposed to BruceWayne's "facts."

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:57 am

BruceWayne wrote:My goodness you just don't get it. I guess this is one of those things that you just can't understand if you aren't in law school/involved with this sort of thing.

Stop calling me a 0L. I go to NYU, bro. Anyway, this isn't really worth arguing anymore, but you don't get to claim that "I'm a law student" advantage. I also don't see how you can claim to know how fondly employers consider different schools on the basis of your being a law student. Basically that's some bullshit.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:53 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:As far as a "gadget" that tells me this I actually do have one that you 2 as 0L's do not. It's called Public career services, alumni networks, upper classmen heading to PI/who have already worked in PI positions, and actually talking to people at the DOJ and other PI orgs, not to mention having a PI summer position lined up. While that gadget isn't perfect it's much better than the NYU viewbook and top law school hearsay that you are relying on.


Umm... Isn't citing what other people say (such as UVa career services) hearsay? Do you get good grades?

Pretty much everyone agrees that networking is really important for PI. You also mentioned that NYU cares more about their PI (you called it institutional support) and is able to facilitate that better (changed your words, same idea). You can't say these two things without admitting that it could be easier to make those connections at NYU (particularly because of their large PI network).

Also, you're saying random statistics like "8 percent of its class into PI" and then changing it to "10 percent of its class into PI." You clearly are just throwing around numbers that aren't true and just making shit up. If you don't want people to be disingenuous, maybe you shouldn't throw out baseless "facts."


Finally, OP shouldn't go to NYU if she doesn't like the big city, period. You'll do better where you're happier in all likelihood. That difference might actually make a difference, as opposed to BruceWayne's "facts."


Do you have any idea what you're talking about? None of the top 14 send more than 10 percent into PI positions post grad? If you think they do you really don't do you? That is a fact, although I can tell you aren't sure what fact means. It's scary that you would comment on something like this with such little knowledge about it. You don't even know the basics and yet you're spewing stuff you've seen people post on here. That's one of the most annoying things about this website. People see a bunch of posts saying the same thing and then suddenly that becomes truth. It's ridiculous.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/nyu-law-school.html
"The Office of Career Services has demonstrated its dedication to maximizing students’ job opportunities, evident in the fact that nearly all of the school’s graduates are employed within 9 months of graduation. Despite NYU’s emphasis on the public interest, typically only about [b]10% of graduates take public interest jobs[/b], while over 70% accept jobs at law firms"

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html
UVA: 4 percent government 3 percent "Public Interest" 7 percent total

Second, it is easier to make PI connections at NYU for PI jobs in NYC, but that's about it. What you fail to realize is that PI isn't one specific type of job, it's an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions. So to say that it would be "easier to get PI" from NYU than another top 14 is ludicrous because there are too many varying PI positions for that to make any sense. It will not be "easier" to get a job at DOJ Criminal or the Chicago law department from NYU than from say Penn or Michigan. What would be legit would be for you to say "it's easier to get a job at the Manhattan DA's office or the ACLU office in NYC from NYU than UVA. But you're not even making legitimate claims like that.

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birdlaw117
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:05 pm

Okay dude. You are amazing at attacking straw men, but let's be real. You keep mentioning the ACLU. Yes, the same ACLU that almost never hires people straight from law school. I know this and I'm a 0L not planning on pursuing PI. It's fine to support your school (and UVa is a helluva school), but you haven't said anything productive.

There are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them. NYU has the largest PI fair, or whatever it is they call it, of any school. Yes, for some specific jobs UVa would provide better connections, but when looking at the overall PI umbrella NYU is superior.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:20 pm

By the way, I love how you include government positions for UVa but exclude them for NYU. I also love that on NYU's website it shows 13, 8, and 12 for PI placement, not including government. Which would be 3 times the percentage at UVa. Factor in the larger class size and the NYU PI alumni base is significantly larger than UVa.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:46 am

birdlaw117 wrote:Okay dude. You are amazing at attacking straw men, but let's be real. You keep mentioning the ACLU. Yes, the same ACLU that almost never hires people straight from law school. I know this and I'm a 0L not planning on pursuing PI. It's fine to support your school (and UVa is a helluva school), but you haven't said anything productive.

There are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them. NYU has the largest PI fair, or whatever it is they call it, of any school. Yes, for some specific jobs UVa would provide better connections, but when looking at the overall PI umbrella NYU is superior.


You're making horrible strawmans. I never said that UVA was "better" (which again you really don't understand what better means in the context of law placement) I said that it wouldn't make a difference--how you have missed that this has been my point from the get go is beyond me. And you're really showing your ignorance with the "overall PI umbrella" statement.

As I've already pointed out it's ridiculous to classify something so diverse as PI into one category and say that one school is uniformly better at placing into it. Basically under your claim NYU is better at placing into DOJ, SEC, State AG offices around the country, ADA offices around the country, legal aid offices around the country, the FDIC, ACLU, FTC, IRS, the NAACP, JAG etc. That is a terribly ignorant claim; that it's so obvious that it's ignorant, but that you still miss it, is what makes it even worse.

And the other thing that you're missing is the difference between ability to go into PI and desire. NYU is going to attract more kids who are interested in PI, and therefore have a higher percentage who go into it. But that doesn't mean that other schools that have less kids who want PI are less able to get it. Hell Stanford puts less into PI than NYU, but I promise you that SLS students are not less able to work in PI positions.

Look this isn't something you're really familiar with. As an 0L this is just something that you don't really know much (anything?) about. I'm not sure why you think you do.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:13 am

BruceWayne wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Okay dude. You are amazing at attacking straw men, but let's be real. You keep mentioning the ACLU. Yes, the same ACLU that almost never hires people straight from law school. I know this and I'm a 0L not planning on pursuing PI. It's fine to support your school (and UVa is a helluva school), but you haven't said anything productive.

There are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them. NYU has the largest PI fair, or whatever it is they call it, of any school. Yes, for some specific jobs UVa would provide better connections, but when looking at the overall PI umbrella NYU is superior.


You're making horrible strawmans. I never said that UVA was "better" (which again you really don't understand what better means in the context of law placement) I said that it wouldn't make a difference--how you have missed that this has been my point from the get go is beyond me. And you're really showing your ignorance with the "overall PI umbrella" statement.


WTF, you just double strawmanned, that's impressive. You just made a strawman argument falsely claiming I said that you said something. Unreal.

Also, when OP simply says PI it is appropriate to discuss PI as a whole since there is a lack of specific detail given by OP about the type of PI. How else could one go about it?

BruceWayne wrote:As I've already pointed out it's ridiculous to classify something so diverse as PI into one category and say that one school is uniformly better at placing into it. Basically under your claim NYU is better at placing into DOJ, SEC, State AG offices around the country, ADA offices around the country, legal aid offices around the country, the FDIC, ACLU, FTC, IRS, the NAACP, JAG etc. That is a terribly ignorant claim; that it's so obvious that it's ignorant, but that you still miss it, is what makes it even worse.


I already conceded that UVa would be better for some specific jobs when I said:
birdlaw117 wrote:Yes, for some specific jobs UVa would provide better connections, but when looking at the overall PI umbrella NYU is superior.


BruceWayne wrote:Look this isn't something you're really familiar with. As an 0L this is just something that you don't really know much (anything?) about. I'm not sure why you think you do.

I'm not claiming to know a lot. I'm basically just saying very simple things and showing why your logic is complete shit (no response as to why you were using different measures for different schools other than to blatantly mislead?). That said, don't just say "I'm a law student so I can just say whatever the fuck I want and it carries more weight than whatever you say, even if it makes sense." That's some bullshit; you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:22 am

You just don't get it. If you are talking about PI as a whole then it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to say that one school places better than another. Just let it go as an 0L you have absolutely no real life experience with this. It's absurd that you are giving substantive legal employment advice like "NYU is better for PI" when you have no clue what you are talking about and have never secured any sort of legal employment.

What's most astounding is that in all your numerous (pointless) posts.you STILL have not addressed (or more likely comprehended) that 1. Better means that EMPLOYERS ARE WILLING TO HIRE DEEPER INTO ONE SCHOOL'S CLASS THAN ANOTHER'S. As an 0L there is the possibility that you aren't aware that law schools use forced curves but still....

Second, more students INTERESTED in working in P.I or PLACED into PI does not mean "better" (ie my previous point that you cannot comprehend). Stanford places less students in PI than NYU but this means NOTHING (that you are missing the horrendous logic in thinking that more students placed into PI automatically means more able is ridiculous. I'm curious how you would address that with a school like Stanford vs. NYU. I guess you'd come up with more 0L Bullshit). It's about who employers are willing to HIRE. And PI employers will not care if you choose UVA over NYU or vice versa.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby SG09 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:32 am

birdlaw117 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Okay dude. You are amazing at attacking straw men, but let's be real. You keep mentioning the ACLU. Yes, the same ACLU that almost never hires people straight from law school. I know this and I'm a 0L not planning on pursuing PI. It's fine to support your school (and UVa is a helluva school), but you haven't said anything productive.

There are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them. NYU has the largest PI fair, or whatever it is they call it, of any school. Yes, for some specific jobs UVa would provide better connections, but when looking at the overall PI umbrella NYU is superior.


You're making horrible strawmans. I never said that UVA was "better" (which again you really don't understand what better means in the context of law placement) I said that it wouldn't make a difference--how you have missed that this has been my point from the get go is beyond me. And you're really showing your ignorance with the "overall PI umbrella" statement.


WTF, you just double strawmanned, that's impressive. You just made a strawman argument falsely claiming I said that you said something. Unreal.

You responded to BruceWayne's post by saying that "there are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them" which implies that BruceWayne was arguing that the OP should choose UVa over NYU due to the former's connection to PI jobs. Or, in other words, that UVA was better for PI than NYU, which is something that BruceWayne never actually argued.

So I don't think BruceWayne was being unfair by labeling your response as a strawman argument.

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birdlaw117
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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:36 am

BruceWayne wrote:You just don't get it. If you are talking about PI as a whole then it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to say that one school places better than another. Just let it go as an 0L you have absolutely no real life experience with this. It's absurd that you are giving substantive legal employment advice like "NYU is better for PI" when you have no clue what you are talking about and have never secured any sort of legal employment.

Dude, stop with the 0L thing. I don't have to be a 1L, 2L, 3L, or J.D. to point out fallacies in reasoning.

BruceWayne wrote:What's most astounding is that in all your numerous (pointless) posts.you STILL have not addressed (or more likely comprehended) that 1. Better means that EMPLOYERS ARE WILLING TO HIRE DEEPER INTO ONE SCHOOL'S CLASS THAN ANOTHER'S. As an 0L there is the possibility that you aren't aware that law schools use forced curves but still....


I disagree. Better means it is EASIER to land a job. Employers being willing to hire deeper is one aspect of this, but not everything. Networking (the point I have been discussing) is another aspect of this.

BruceWayne wrote:Second, more students INTERESTED in working in P.I or PLACED into PI does not mean "better" (ie my previous point that you cannot comprehend). Stanford places less students in PI than NYU but this means NOTHING (that you are missing the horrendous logic in thinking that more students placed into PI automatically means more able is ridiculous. I'm curious how you would address that with a school like Stanford vs. NYU. I guess you'd come up with more 0L Bullshit). It's about who employers are willing to HIRE. And PI employers will not care if you choose UVA over NYU or vice versa.

I never once said more interested students means better. I said more students that go into PI creates a larger network of alumni in PI positions. This leads to a larger network (you know, that thing I've been claiming).

I agree that employers probably won't care (depending on region, I suppose) if the student is at UVa or NYU. Never once said that. My only points regarding an advantage of NYU have been about networking. Everything else has been showing your logical fallacies. Oh yeah... still no reason for using clearly misleading statistics?

Oh, and regarding the Stanford vs. NYU thing: Stanford's reputation would seriously outweigh any other competitive advantage NYU might hold. End of story. I'm not dumb; I'm not making outrageous claims; I'm not just simply "coming up with more 0L Bullshit" despite being a 0L.

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Re: UVA v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:40 am

SG09 wrote:You responded to BruceWayne's post by saying that "there are a lot of reasons for OP to choose UVa over NYU, but connections to PI jobs is not one of them" which implies that BruceWayne was arguing that the OP should choose UVa over NYU due to the former's connection to PI jobs. Or, in other words, that UVA was better for PI than NYU, which is something that BruceWayne never actually argued.

So I don't think BruceWayne was being unfair by labeling your response as a strawman argument.

I suppose I could see that. Definitely not what I was doing, as it was meant emphasize that UVa has a lot to offer; but I can see your point.




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