Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

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boushi
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby boushi » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:18 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:Thanks!

Can someone explain the last column to me better? It looks like about 50% of class (with some variation) on average becomes partners for each school in t14. Then another Big Law statistic shows that only 20% of associates become partners. So is it because it is easier to become partner in Mid Law/Small Law? Why the discrepancy?

sounds like it's because the law school you go to helps you make partner. among those 20% in your general biglaw stat, probably around 50% of them are t14 grads- percentages chosen to make the two stats you gave be inclusive of each other. (i say this assuming that the more likely you are to attend a t14, the more likely you are to gun for/get big law if you don't want (can't get) PI, clerkship, etc)

I thought so too, but thinking more about it, I am not so sure anymore. Why would law school you went to matter in terms of promotions in Big Law? Once you get a job, its not like you're going to form cliques with fellow alumni and be more liked by partners that graduated from the same school. I mean, I can see partners marginally caring about what school you went to when promoting you, but I doubt it is a very important factor. I also doubt that people who went to lower ranked law schools are less capable to be noticed/liked/promoted than T14 people. It might actually be the opposite since only the very top kids from lower ranked schools do Big Law and it is harder to get into.


What on God's earth would convince you that this magically stops when you become an adult? Sorry, but life is full of Mean Girls. People are always looking for a way to pack-up, and individuals are always looking to differentiate themselves from you on criteria that may be meaningless (I.e., the renowned Harvard and Trojan Networks). Can you overcome that by performing well, or poorly? I would hope so and data seems to suggest it. However, most have also indicated that biglaw associates get very few chances to distinguish themselves until they are at least being considered for a partner position. Who do you think the Harvard alum is going to keep an eye out for--the one guy they hired from DePaul, or the fellow Harvard grad who took eight minutes to learn whatever the old man's nickname was on campus?


My experiences, both as a paralegal in a big law firm and working as a consultant on my own, support this sentiment. The end game of becoming a partner turns on either 1) being handed down clients from a partner who trusts you, or 2) somehow getting your own clients. In both cases, I think your alma mater will have some influence. People definitely remain cliquey with the alumni from their schools at firms and partners really seem to want to "pass the torch" (aka, their clients) to those with similar backgrounds. It's certainly not always the case, but it seemed especially prevalent in practice groups that tended to hire the best person or two from certain T1 or T2 schools in addition to their smattering of T14 associates. Clients and their in-house counsels also went to school somewhere and may or may not view certain schools more favorably as a result. Of course, getting a good track record and racking up some unique experiences (closing big deals, participating in big trials/litigs, etc.) will probably always be more important than background on the firm level, but, in many cases, even getting onto the teams that take on those projects will somewhat depend upon a partner liking your background or a client requesting you be on the project. All other things being equal, partners and clients tend to give priority to their own.

EDIT: Let me also add, that such networks don't necessarily always work out in the favor of T14 grads. I knew one partner, for example, who absolutely hated working with or hiring Yale grads; instead, he created a really great team that was about 50% from his alma mater (a T2/T3 school). The partners and non-equity partners he was grooming to take his clients were, unsurprisingly, also from that school.

Sandro
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby Sandro » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:36 am

Can someone PM the USNWR detailed data for IUb, UMN, and UGA please? 8)

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androstan
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby androstan » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:04 am

This is really awesome. Is there any chance of OP extending this down into the T20?

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:28 pm

boushi wrote:
EDIT: Let me also add, that such networks don't necessarily always work out in the favor of T14 grads. I knew one partner, for example, who absolutely hated working with or hiring Yale grads; instead, he created a really great team that was about 50% from his alma mater (a T2/T3 school). The partners and non-equity partners he was grooming to take his clients were, unsurprisingly, also from that school.


That is what I also thought. If there is only limited number of people in Big Law out of certain school, I would see those alums being much more cliquish. It feels like if half of the associates at a firm are from HLS, it doesn't seem like the partner, even if he is HLS graduate, would give that much consideration to HLS alum. While smaller networks would be stronger.

My main point is that I question whether going to t14 would give one a higher chance of becoming a partner, given that a person has obtained that Big Law position.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:29 pm

androstan wrote:This is really awesome. Is there any chance of OP extending this down into the T20?


To see T50 would even be better since many people are considering taking $$$ in T1 instead of doing T14.

boushi
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby boushi » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:47 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
androstan wrote:This is really awesome. Is there any chance of OP extending this down into the T20?


To see T50 would even be better since many people are considering taking $$$ in T1 instead of doing T14.


I'm a bit busier than I'd like to be these days (and yes, I still found time to procrastinate work and studying enough to make the original chart), so it may be difficult to throw in the other schools this week. I have a decently long plane trip early next week, however, and can probably do it then. But if anyone wanted to throw together the self-reported and us news data for the schools up to -- say -- the T30, I'd be willing to grab the other data for them and add it in before then. I wouldn't need anything fancy -- just the data in text form separated simply by spaces (rankings info unnecessary).

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swampthang
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby swampthang » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:28 pm

Since this has been a recurring question of late, % of grads in Art. III clerkships + NLJ 250 ('08 + '10 class data so it's imperfect, but a good start that someone can hopefully improve upon):

1. Harvard 68%
1. Chicago 68%
3. Stanford 66%
4. Penn 64%
4. Cornell 64%
6. Columbia 63%
7. Yale 61%
8. Virginia 58%
9. Berekely 54%
10. Michigan 53%
11. Northwestern 52%
12. NYU 51%
13. Duke 50%
14. Georgetown 43%
15. Texas 34%

Cornell is a big surprise at #4 just like Columbia is a disappointment at #6 (since I would expect their biglaw placement to carry them). Also shows how far behind Georgetown is. Texas, welcome to the T14- you've got some catching up to do.

boushi
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby boushi » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:31 am

swampthang wrote:Since this has been a recurring question of late, % of grads in Art. III clerkships + NLJ 250 ('08 + '10 class data so it's imperfect, but a good start that someone can hopefully improve upon):

1. Harvard 68%
1. Chicago 68%
3. Stanford 66%
4. Penn 64%
4. Cornell 64%
6. Columbia 63%
7. Yale 61%
8. Virginia 58%
9. Berekely 54%
10. Michigan 53%
11. Northwestern 52%
12. NYU 51%
13. Duke 50%
14. Georgetown 43%
15. Texas 34%

Cornell is a big surprise at #4 just like Columbia is a disappointment at #6 (since I would expect their biglaw placement to carry them). Also shows how far behind Georgetown is. Texas, welcome to the T14- you've got some catching up to do.


That's good data and I was thinking of adding something like this; however, I wish there was a data set more specific than just the NLJ 250 firms. Honestly, I think the NLJ firms include many that people with big law dreams may consider to be "settling" if it were their best offer, and those firms are certainly not all employment outcomes on par with Art III clerkships. Does anyone know of a more specific employment data set (say -- for the V100 or V50 or some such thing) that I could add to the chart?

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swampthang
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby swampthang » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:49 am

boushi wrote:
swampthang wrote:Since this has been a recurring question of late, % of grads in Art. III clerkships + NLJ 250 ('08 + '10 class data so it's imperfect, but a good start that someone can hopefully improve upon):

1. Harvard 68%
1. Chicago 68%
3. Stanford 66%
4. Penn 64%
4. Cornell 64%
6. Columbia 63%
7. Yale 61%
8. Virginia 58%
9. Berekely 54%
10. Michigan 53%
11. Northwestern 52%
12. NYU 51%
13. Duke 50%
14. Georgetown 43%
15. Texas 34%

Cornell is a big surprise at #4 just like Columbia is a disappointment at #6 (since I would expect their biglaw placement to carry them). Also shows how far behind Georgetown is. Texas, welcome to the T14- you've got some catching up to do.


That's good data and I was thinking of adding something like this; however, I wish there was a data set more specific than just the NLJ 250 firms. Honestly, I think the NLJ firms include many that people with big law dreams may consider to be "settling" if it were their best offer, and those firms are certainly not all employment outcomes on par with Art III clerkships. Does anyone know of a more specific employment data set (say -- for the V100 or V50 or some such thing) that I could add to the chart?


I was thinking the same thing as I was adding these numbers up. I guess I'm not sure exactly what differentiates NLJ 250 from V100 or V50, but if your lower NLJ 250 firms are still paying 'market', it would give you a pretty good approximation of how many grads from each school 'make it', even if they are settling for lower choice jobs.

Complicating factors are what % go into business (perhaps at an even higher median salary than biglaw associates) plus how to judge PI, but I think this is probably a decent proxy pro temp. Thanks for the input (and original data), boushi.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby Law Sauce » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:05 pm

This is a sweet chart, wish it went to t20...

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swc65
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby swc65 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:12 pm

swampthang wrote:
boushi wrote:
swampthang wrote:Since this has been a recurring question of late, % of grads in Art. III clerkships + NLJ 250 ('08 + '10 class data so it's imperfect, but a good start that someone can hopefully improve upon):

1. Harvard 68%
1. Chicago 68%
3. Stanford 66%
4. Penn 64%
4. Cornell 64%
6. Columbia 63%
7. Yale 61%
8. Virginia 58%
9. Berekely 54%
10. Michigan 53%
11. Northwestern 52%
12. NYU 51%
13. Duke 50%
14. Georgetown 43%
15. Texas 34%

Cornell is a big surprise at #4 just like Columbia is a disappointment at #6 (since I would expect their biglaw placement to carry them). Also shows how far behind Georgetown is. Texas, welcome to the T14- you've got some catching up to do.


That's good data and I was thinking of adding something like this; however, I wish there was a data set more specific than just the NLJ 250 firms. Honestly, I think the NLJ firms include many that people with big law dreams may consider to be "settling" if it were their best offer, and those firms are certainly not all employment outcomes on par with Art III clerkships. Does anyone know of a more specific employment data set (say -- for the V100 or V50 or some such thing) that I could add to the chart?


I was thinking the same thing as I was adding these numbers up. I guess I'm not sure exactly what differentiates NLJ 250 from V100 or V50, but if your lower NLJ 250 firms are still paying 'market', it would give you a pretty good approximation of how many grads from each school 'make it', even if they are settling for lower choice jobs.

Complicating factors are what % go into business (perhaps at an even higher median salary than biglaw associates) plus how to judge PI, but I think this is probably a decent proxy pro temp. Thanks for the input (and original data), boushi.



I wonder how much these will change once we get the '10 Art III numbers. I would imagine that many '10 students at these schools who would have gotten biglaw in '08 worked pretty hard to get clerkships once they missed the biglaw train.

jlevin37
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Re: Mega T15 School Data Compilation (USNEWS, LEITER, LAW.COM)

Postby jlevin37 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:29 pm

swampthang wrote:Since this has been a recurring question of late, % of grads in Art. III clerkships + NLJ 250 ('08 + '10 class data so it's imperfect, but a good start that someone can hopefully improve upon):

1. Harvard 68%
1. Chicago 68%
3. Stanford 66%
4. Penn 64%
4. Cornell 64%
6. Columbia 63%
7. Yale 61%
8. Virginia 58%
9. Berekely 54%
10. Michigan 53%
11. Northwestern 52%
12. NYU 51%
13. Duke 50%
14. Georgetown 43%
15. Texas 34%

Cornell is a big surprise at #4 just like Columbia is a disappointment at #6 (since I would expect their biglaw placement to carry them). Also shows how far behind Georgetown is. Texas, welcome to the T14- you've got some catching up to do.



I'm curious how, given these numbers, people argue that the bottom half of the T14 is such a crapshoot when compared to the T6. Cornell and Penn both placed exceptionally well, UVA not that far behind Columbia, and Michigan and Northwestern both above NYU.

Granted, NYU has the stigma of being a PI-focused school, so maybe that skews the numbers a bit, but only by about 8-9% from the numbers I've seen.


Disclaimer: I'm probably going to end up at the bottom half of the T14, so I'm biased - but it seems hard to argue with the numbers.




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