U Penn vs. Michigan

[dbshjb]

These two law schools rank No. 7 in 2012 ranking. Which one is better? Which one are you going to go if you are accepted by both?

[d34d9823]

These two law schools rank No. 7 in 2012 ranking. Which one is better? Which one are you going to go if you are accepted by both?

Michigan is better because I didn't have to write a stupid essay.

[dabbadon8]

1. Which ever gave me the most money
2. If at equal money, then the one I liked most after visiting

[HeavenWood]

1. Which ever gave me the most money
2. If at equal money, then the one I liked most after visiting

Penn is better for New York, Michigan is better for Chicago (but the difference in placement is not enough to justify taking sticker at one over a scholly offer at the other).

[dbshjb]

If both schools are stikers, which one should be chosen? Which campus is better, which city is good for living for three years, which school is better for corporate law, most importanly, which school is better from a career development point of view?

[dabbadon8]

If both schools are stikers, which one should be chosen? Which campus is better, which city is good for living for three years, which school is better for corporate law, most importanly, which school is better from a career development point of view?

Campus is a matter of opinion...Do you like old gothic style in a college town with low cost of living or a still very nice set of buildings in an urban setting?
City is a matter of opinion...College town or big city? How important is it to you to keep down your COL?
For corporate law penn numbers tend to be higher but not by a huge margin and it is unknown what part of that is self selection.
I think both schools will give you equal career prospects.

Also I think Mich is 8400 cheaper with both at sticker. They are peer schools and I would chose completely based on personal preference at equal money. Your happiness for the 3 years you go there is going to be more important the miniscule difference between the schools.

[glewz]

I'd vote mich - been to both & I like the food + environment better than at philadelphia.

[Zabini]

Anyone with opinions/facts on the portability to the West Coast of each?

[dukey]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

[Trequartista]

Historically Penn has placed a larger percentage of its class in Biglaw, and might have a more pronounced edge because of smaller class size size ITE. For NYC biglaw Penn is closer to CCN than MV.

[HeavenWood]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

[Rory1987]

Penn because it's in Philly -- very underrated city.

[Kabuo]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

Just cause they haven't won a lot recently doesn't mean people have forgotten Joe Pa. Everyone and their grandparents love him and the integrity he instills in his players (he makes them wear suits in their photos!).

[dr123]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

they have sports prestige as long as JoePa is still around

[HeavenWood]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

they have sports prestige as long as JoePa is still around

I swear we're gonna drop out of the T13 once he retires.

DO YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE?!?!?!

[DeweyWins]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

You know lay prestige is minimal when one of the FAQ's on your Ivy league university's website is: "Is Penn a state university?"

[FlightoftheEarls]

Historically Penn has placed a larger percentage of its class in Biglaw, and might have a more pronounced edge because of smaller class size size ITE. For NYC biglaw Penn is closer to CCN than MV.

In terms of how many students it puts into the market relative to its class size, yes. In terms of what class rank you need to land particular firms, Penn's advantage is minimal, if not non-existent. The only difference between the schools is how many of the students in the top 1/3 target NYC - far more from Penn want NYC, whereas students at Michigan select into other, more competitive markets. I do agree, however, that a small class size has it's advantages in a down economy.

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

I love Michigan and I'm admitting I'm biased, but I really would not even consider Penn to be in the same league as Michigan for any primary market other than NYC or DC (where it's placement is rather comparable), and I certainly would take Michigan every day of the week for west coast placement. Self-selection doesn't mean a thing when we're talking about placing into tougher markets - Penn can tout it's placement "advantage" in NYC all it wants (and TLS's Penn trolls do, despite my repeated efforts to point out how absolutely ridiculous this is - it's honestly like rewarding excellence at mediocrity, and that's coming from somebody going to NYC), but Michigan excels when it comes to competing for jobs in the tougher markets. Penn averaged a mere 7.7% of it's class placed into west coast markets from 2004-2009 (this number includes all placement into the LA, SF, Portland, and Seattle markets combined), which may actually be worse than Cornell's geographic spread (the same Cornell that is ridiculed for it's terrible placement outside of NYC). I am extremely skeptical that less than 10% of Penn's class had any interest in going back to the west coast. We don't have Michigan's placement in each market for recent years, but the last data point I've seen for specific markets had Michigan's 2008 placement at 14% into California alone.

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I really dislike Philadelphia, but DC and New York are very reasonable train rides away. You're also near Camden if you're ever in the mood to get shot/stabbed (though I suppose West Philly should suffice in that regard). I prefer Ann Arbor, to be honest. Both get snow. Detroit has a nice airport. Michigan has a safer campus, and it's prettier. You can't go wrong with either one. Pick it out of a hat or something

[environmentallaw]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

they have sports prestige as long as JoePa is still around

FYI, Joe Pa coaches for Penn State... which is not UPenn. Funny that people confuse a huge state university and an Ivy League school so often.

[dr123]

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

LOL at Penn Law having lay prestige.

they have sports prestige as long as JoePa is still around

FYI, Joe Pa coaches for Penn State... which is not UPenn. Funny that people confuse a huge state university and an Ivy League school so often.

What! no way, since when? I'm not so sure man...

[d34d9823]

FYI, Joe Pa coaches for Penn State... which is not UPenn. Funny that people confuse a huge state university and an Ivy League school so often.

Nah man, there is only one state school in Pennsylvania. That's why it's referred to interchangeably as "Penn" and "Penn State." You're thinking of Brown University, which is nearby in Rhode Island.

[farrellaroonie]

FYI, Joe Pa coaches for Penn State... which is not UPenn. Funny that people confuse a huge state university and an Ivy League school so often.

Nah man, there is only one state school in Pennsylvania. That's why it's referred to interchangeably as "Penn" and "Penn State." You're thinking of Brown University, which is nearby in Rhode Island.

There is the University of Pennsylvania (mascot is the Quakers) and Penn State University (mascot is Nittany Lions.) Different schools.
And the other posters point about Penn having lay prestige stands up well when Penn gets confused with Penn State.

[Veyron]

Historically Penn has placed a larger percentage of its class in Biglaw, and might have a more pronounced edge because of smaller class size size ITE. For NYC biglaw Penn is closer to CCN than MV.

In terms of how many students it puts into the market relative to its class size, yes. In terms of what class rank you need to land particular firms, Penn's advantage is minimal, if not non-existent. The only difference between the schools is how many of the students in the top 1/3 target NYC - far more from Penn want NYC, whereas students at Michigan select into other, more competitive markets. I do agree, however, that a small class size has it's advantages in a down economy.

West coast law accessibility is fine for both - not really distinguishable.

Lay prestige is less for Michigan, mostly because Penn Law piggybacks on Wharton (and perhaps med school).

I love Michigan and I'm admitting I'm biased, but I really would not even consider Penn to be in the same league as Michigan for any primary market other than NYC or DC (where it's placement is rather comparable), and I certainly would take Michigan every day of the week for west coast placement. Self-selection doesn't mean a thing when we're talking about placing into tougher markets - Penn can tout it's placement "advantage" in NYC all it wants (and TLS's Penn trolls do, despite my repeated efforts to point out how absolutely ridiculous this is - it's honestly like rewarding excellence at mediocrity, and that's coming from somebody going to NYC), but Michigan excels when it comes to competing for jobs in the tougher markets. Penn averaged a mere 7.7% of it's class placed into west coast markets from 2004-2009 (this number includes all placement into the LA, SF, Portland, and Seattle markets combined), which may actually be worse than Cornell's geographic spread (the same Cornell that is ridiculed for it's terrible placement outside of NYC). I am extremely skeptical that less than 10% of Penn's class had any interest in going back to the west coast. We don't have Michigan's placement in each market for recent years, but the last data point I've seen for specific markets had Michigan's 2008 placement at 14% into California alone.

Lol no. Michigan places more on the west coast because a larger % of the kids there want to work in more places. If you want the NE you take Penn in a heartbeat and so, magically, we place a lot of kids in the North East, leaving less for the west. Also, lots of kids here without a strong preference end up falling in the the orbit of east coast firms by default.

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

[bigkahuna2020]

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

The idiocy of this statement need not be commented on, just preserved for posterity.

[TLSNYC]

I think a lot of this decision boils down, as people have been rightly pointing out, to intangibles, i.e. I am likely to pick Penn over Michigan even though the latter is offering me 45k over three years and the former will probably offer me half as much, if I'm lucky.

As for lay prestige, Penn has more if we define lay in a relevant sense, i.e. no one cares if your mother's hair dresser knows UPenn vs. Penn state. I am considering at some point moving into government consulting and a lot of my contacts in the field have told me the UPenn/UChicago name will go much further than NYU or Michigan.

As for placement, it's really difficult to pin down since PI/gov't is hard to know. Penn has roughly 10% more students get NLJ250+Art III clerkships for three out of the last four years. We can only put so much stock in that, of course, since we don't know how the prestigious PI/gov't numbers shake out.