Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

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goblue223
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Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby goblue223 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:22 pm

So I have finally narrowed down my choice for law school to two: University of St. Thomas (MN) or University of Wisconsin - Madison. I am from Minnesota and think that I want to work in the Twin Cities when I am done with law school. I know that most people will say to choose UW, but I received a full ride from UST and am struggling between choosing a top 30 (or what was a top 30) school or being debt free after graduation...

Any feedback would be appreciated! Thanks!
Last edited by goblue223 on Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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twairlines
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby twairlines » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:52 pm

.
Last edited by twairlines on Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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esq
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby esq » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:57 pm

Go with UW. It's a legit law school, and who wants to sit for the bar if they don't have to?

MrAnon
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby MrAnon » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:10 pm

St. Thomas.

My rationale is that if you are really super awesome at law school then you can transfer out of St. Thomas, go somewhere better than UW even, and have a good career.

If you suck at law school then better to figure that out while St. Thomas is paying for it, rather than you paying UW. If you suck at law school then the UW degree will not save you. You will be fighting with St. Thomas kids for the same jobs, except you'll be burdened by a ton of debt.

Much of finding a job when you go to a very bottom of the barrel school like St. Thomas comes down to the kind of person you are. If you present yourself as a reasonably intelligent individual and are likable then you'll find work. The problem is not necessarily the St. Thomas degree, but the type of student who is admitted there. The better the school, the more dynamic the student, typically. Once you go to lower schools, or lower in the class at individual schools, you have less dynamic individuals. Nobody wants to hire that person.

By the way, suck at law school should be defined as outside the top 15%. Frankly, anyone outside that range at any school outside the T14 has to face the possibility that they will be pounding the pavement looking for work.

goblue223
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby goblue223 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:37 pm

Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it. I guess I just can't decide in a school ranked in the 30's is really worth $100,000 of debt...yet I definitely don't want to graduate in 3 years and have no chance of getting a good-paying job.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:59 pm

MrAnon wrote:St. Thomas.

My rationale is that if you are really super awesome at law school then you can transfer out of St. Thomas, go somewhere better than UW even, and have a good career.

If you suck at law school then better to figure that out while St. Thomas is paying for it, rather than you paying UW. If you suck at law school then the UW degree will not save you. You will be fighting with St. Thomas kids for the same jobs, except you'll be burdened by a ton of debt.

Much of finding a job when you go to a very bottom of the barrel school like St. Thomas comes down to the kind of person you are. If you present yourself as a reasonably intelligent individual and are likable then you'll find work. The problem is not necessarily the St. Thomas degree, but the type of student who is admitted there. The better the school, the more dynamic the student, typically. Once you go to lower schools, or lower in the class at individual schools, you have less dynamic individuals. Nobody wants to hire that person.

By the way, suck at law school should be defined as outside the top 15%. Frankly, anyone outside that range at any school outside the T14 has to face the possibility that they will be pounding the pavement looking for work.

This is silly. First, almost everyone in law school or appyling will tell you to go to a school planning on graduating from it. If you do incredibly, great, go to a different school. But DO NOT plan on this before you start.
Second, your scholly is from a T3, which usually means insanely difficult stipulations. There is a strong chance that you will lose it and could end up going to St. Thomas full price, which is not a good option compared to full price at Wisconsin. Wisconsin is a much better school. Go there

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twairlines
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Re: Could use some help choosing...

Postby twairlines » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:47 pm

jdfrisby wrote:
MrAnon wrote:St. Thomas.

My rationale is that if you are really super awesome at law school then you can transfer out of St. Thomas, go somewhere better than UW even, and have a good career.

If you suck at law school then better to figure that out while St. Thomas is paying for it, rather than you paying UW. If you suck at law school then the UW degree will not save you. You will be fighting with St. Thomas kids for the same jobs, except you'll be burdened by a ton of debt.

Much of finding a job when you go to a very bottom of the barrel school like St. Thomas comes down to the kind of person you are. If you present yourself as a reasonably intelligent individual and are likable then you'll find work. The problem is not necessarily the St. Thomas degree, but the type of student who is admitted there. The better the school, the more dynamic the student, typically. Once you go to lower schools, or lower in the class at individual schools, you have less dynamic individuals. Nobody wants to hire that person.

By the way, suck at law school should be defined as outside the top 15%. Frankly, anyone outside that range at any school outside the T14 has to face the possibility that they will be pounding the pavement looking for work.

This is silly. First, almost everyone in law school or appyling will tell you to go to a school planning on graduating from it. If you do incredibly, great, go to a different school. But DO NOT plan on this before you start.
Second, your scholly is from a T3, which usually means insanely difficult stipulations. There is a strong chance that you will lose it and could end up going to St. Thomas full price, which is not a good option compared to full price at Wisconsin. Wisconsin is a much better school. Go there


St. Thomas just needs good academic standing which is 2.0, if that matters for his case.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:37 am

I wouldn't take out a lot of student loans for Wisconsin. See if you can get a scholarship. You don't want to graduate with debt and only a few job prospects. Better to graduate with no debt and few job prospects.

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esq
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby esq » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:23 am

Wisconsin is the big fish in your market. Don't throw that away for the worst school in your market.

Slevin Kelevra 2011
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby Slevin Kelevra 2011 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:49 pm

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=146346

Use the search function.

MrAnon
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby MrAnon » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:39 pm

This is silly. First, almost everyone in law school or appyling will tell you to go to a school planning on graduating from it. If you do incredibly, great, go to a different school. But DO NOT plan on this before you start.
Second, your scholly is from a T3, which usually means insanely difficult stipulations. There is a strong chance that you will lose it and could end up going to St. Thomas full price, which is not a good option compared to full price at Wisconsin. Wisconsin is a much better school. Go there


Please re-read my post. My post suggested that IF he does extremely well at St. Thomas THEN he can transfer. It wasn't a go-to-St.Thomas-and-you're-guaranteed-to-finish-top of class post. But I assumed he got a full ride to St. Thomas for 3 years. I agree that if the scholarship has stipulations do not do it.

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patrickd139
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:58 pm

MrAnon wrote:
This is silly. First, almost everyone in law school or appyling will tell you to go to a school planning on graduating from it. If you do incredibly, great, go to a different school. But DO NOT plan on this before you start.
Second, your scholly is from a T3, which usually means insanely difficult stipulations. There is a strong chance that you will lose it and could end up going to St. Thomas full price, which is not a good option compared to full price at Wisconsin. Wisconsin is a much better school. Go there


Please re-read my post. My post suggested that IF he does extremely well at St. Thomas THEN he can transfer. It wasn't a go-to-St.Thomas-and-you're-guaranteed-to-finish-top of class post. But I assumed he got a full ride to St. Thomas for 3 years. I agree that if the scholarship has stipulations do not do it.

Still poor logic. Going to a law school and intending to transfer if you do well is still going to a law school intending to transfer. There are a myriad of reasons why a) you won't do well, and/or b) doing well might not be enough to transfer. The forums are full of anecdotal evidence of this.

The scholarship-stipulations-dump part of that post was pretty solid though.

cubswin
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby cubswin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:05 pm

esq wrote:Wisconsin is the big fish in your market. Don't throw that away for the worst school in your market.


It has to be second to Univ of Minn.

Not having to sit for the bar would be sweet, though. Not sticker-at-UW sweet, but sweet nonetheless.

Agree that if there are stipulations, take Wisconsin. Otherwise, this is your decision. If you're looking to have a shot at any kind of prestigious job in MN, my guess is that UW is the easy choice here.

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twert
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby twert » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:13 pm

don't min residents get in state tuition an wisconsin?

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ThomasMN
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby ThomasMN » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:25 pm

twert wrote:don't min residents get in state tuition an wisconsin?


Technically they don't. They actually end up paying the in-state rate for the University of Minnesota at UW. That still ends up being around 10K a year cheaper then out of state tuition, but still 30K a year.

UST's scholarships don't actually come with much for a stipulation. If you lose your scholarship there it is the equivalent of flunking out.

Now, if you "think" you want to work in Minnesota then you should just go to UW. A UST law diploma is not going to do you very well outside of the Twin Cities and UW places pretty well in Minnesota and else where. That being said, UST's campus in Minneapolis is pretty amazing and they do have some really good professors. Have you visited Madison yet?

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TheTopBloke
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:28 pm

Being debt free is a good thing. It means you can do whatever you want while most of the TLS'ers that are telling you St. Thomas ain't worth shit will spend the next 30 years paying off their T14 debts.

goblue223
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby goblue223 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:55 pm

Thanks for all the input. To answer a few questions:

1. There is basically no stipulation at St. Thomas. You just have to maintain above a 2.0 and you retain the scholarship. So I am really not worried at all about losing it, because if I drop below a 2.0, I think there are bigger issues..

2. I haven't received any money from Wisconsin and, since I was admitted off the waitlist, I am not anticipating that much is coming my way. I am visiting next weekend, however, so I might stop in to financial aid and see if anything can be done there.

3. After doing some research, it seems that University of St. Thomas is definitely not considered the worst school in Minnesota. Yes, it is young and yes, the alumni base is lacking because of this. I believe, however, that with the financial backing they are receiving and the faculty being recruited the ranking is only going to improve.

4. I know that big law is probably out graduating from St. Thomas, but don't you think it would be possible to get a mid-law job and then transfer to big law after a few years in the industry...

runnergal
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby runnergal » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:26 am

I would probably go with UST if you want to practice in Minnesota. UW is a good school, but it is not good enough to pay sticker for a job in Minnesota. Also, no offense, but since you said you got into UW off the waitlist, it sounds like there is a good chance you will not be near the top of your class there, while there is a much higher chance you will be at UST.

seriously????
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Re: Tier 3 vs. Top 30 (well now 30ish)...HELP ME!!

Postby seriously???? » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:56 am

runnergal wrote:I would probably go with UST if you want to practice in Minnesota. UW is a good school, but it is not good enough to pay sticker for a job in Minnesota. Also, no offense, but since you said you got into UW off the waitlist, it sounds like there is a good chance you will not be near the top of your class there, while there is a much higher chance you will be at UST.


i think we need a new thread on this topic. if one gets a full ride, but is still not expected to do well enough to keep a scholarship stipulation, wouldn't that also mean that one off the waitlist can't be ruled out to succeed?
personally, i think it may be risky, but if ones stats are extremely higher than the average class, that person has a right to expect with very hard work to do well there.
also, i do think if harvard students trickled down to lower Tier 1, 2,3, 4, schools, most of them would be very successful there. However, just being median at harvard affords them more opportunites than being a top student at many other schools. And frankly, I feel that many t14 grads choose their schools for the opportunities and the prestige, but it is amazing how many people stay away from T3, T4 to pay significantly extra at lower T1 and T2 schools for slightly better prestige and prospects.

again, if the schools median is 155, and ones lsat is a 170, is it illogical to think the person with a 170 (with an extremely hard work ethic) can be top five percent of the class, let alone top third or so to keep the scholarship?




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